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It seems most everyone is using scripture to back up what they are saying.
Yes, he has willed Salvation for all of us. God does what pleases him... Psalm 115:3 "Our God is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him." And the death of the wicked does not please him.
Armenianism never implies universalism. It's just ridiculous to even imply that out of what I said. God dying for the whole world only means that God gave man-kind the potential to accept salvation. Stop implying that God commands that all be saved. That's Calivinism, not Armenian.
Yes, made up term by men called Calvinists. God has called many and few were chosen. This is reading into the bible... by saying there is a General Call and an Effectual call.
God's wrath is on all... yet, because of His love and mercy he loves all... sinners included. The difference is that the god of Calvinism is a god that does not love to the fullest extent. The God of the bible loves with no bounds.... the fact that God himself is willing to die for the world alone is a testament to how boundless his love is.
1 Timothy 1:15-16 [SUP]15 [/SUP]Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.[SUP]16 [/SUP]But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.
Salvation is for sinners. PERIOD. The reason for salvation was for sinners. Not some sinners... sinners. Stop reading in that it's some please. The bible DOES use words that show proportion. There is no word that shows proportion here... unless you read into it.
Yes, God gave man this ability to choose freely... without God choosing for man. Mankind chose... not God. That destroys Calvinism in that God determines man. This alone destroys Calvinism. The fact alone that you admit that Adam and Eve had this ability is admitting Calvinism as defeated.
Also, classical Armenianism holds that man is depraved, in agreement with Calvinism. However, the difference is that man then has freed will by the hearing of God's word. Then man can choose whether or not he/she wants to serve God. This ability that you admit was there is then restored.
Non-sequitors are called... if I was making an argument. I did not make an argument out of that hypothetical. It was just a warning in case a Calvinist did. Also, even if a Calvinist does not claim it... the framework of Calvinism may necessary lead to God being necessarily the author of evil. Calvinists can deny that..., but that does not make Calvinism not lead to that conclusion.
Faith as a gift, is a gift merely as a possibility. Man must have faith in God. God does not have faith for man. Man must necessarily practice the faith... God does not do that for man... man does that for God. You already admitted that God gave man this ability... if that's okay with you... in regards to God's sovereignty... if it's okay for Adam and Eve to have this free will... Then you should not have any problem with it at any other point. It was a good enough idea for God to implement it with Adam and Eve... and in the context of Adam and Eve... God was still sovereign, yet somehow it's a problem everywhere else.
Armenianism never implies universalism. It's just ridiculous to even imply that out of what I said. God dying for the whole world only means that God gave man-kind the potential to accept salvation. Stop implying that God commands that all be saved. That's Calivinism, not Armenian.
Yes, made up term by men called Calvinists. God has called many and few were chosen. This is reading into the bible... by saying there is a General Call and an Effectual call.
God's wrath is on all... yet, because of His love and mercy he loves all... sinners included. The difference is that the god of Calvinism is a god that does not love to the fullest extent. The God of the bible loves with no bounds.... the fact that God himself is willing to die for the world alone is a testament to how boundless his love is.
1 Timothy 1:15-16 [SUP]15 [/SUP]Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.[SUP]16 [/SUP]But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.
Salvation is for sinners. PERIOD. The reason for salvation was for sinners. Not some sinners... sinners. Stop reading in that it's some please. The bible DOES use words that show proportion. There is no word that shows proportion here... unless you read into it.
Yes, God gave man this ability to choose freely... without God choosing for man. Mankind chose... not God. That destroys Calvinism in that God determines man. This alone destroys Calvinism. The fact alone that you admit that Adam and Eve had this ability is admitting Calvinism as defeated.
Also, classical Armenianism holds that man is depraved, in agreement with Calvinism. However, the difference is that man then has freed will by the hearing of God's word. Then man can choose whether or not he/she wants to serve God. This ability that you admit was there is then restored.
Non-sequitors are called... if I was making an argument. I did not make an argument out of that hypothetical. It was just a warning in case a Calvinist did. Also, even if a Calvinist does not claim it... the framework of Calvinism may necessary lead to God being necessarily the author of evil. Calvinists can deny that..., but that does not make Calvinism not lead to that conclusion.
Faith as a gift, is a gift merely as a possibility. Man must have faith in God. God does not have faith for man. Man must necessarily practice the faith... God does not do that for man... man does that for God. You already admitted that God gave man this ability... if that's okay with you... in regards to God's sovereignty... if it's okay for Adam and Eve to have this free will... Then you should not have any problem with it at any other point. It was a good enough idea for God to implement it with Adam and Eve... and in the context of Adam and Eve... God was still sovereign, yet somehow it's a problem everywhere else.
He shall save His ppl from their sins.
He came to seek and save that which was lost.
He came into the world to save sinners.
He actually saves ppl from their sins. He does not try to save them, but actually saves them. You are the one pouring your theology into the text.
It did not say "He shall 'try to' save His ppl from their sins."
It did not came "He came to seek and 'try to' save them that were lost."
It did not say "Christ came into the world to 'try to' save sinners."
He saves all those He wills to be saved and none else.
He came to seek and save that which was lost.
He came into the world to save sinners.
He actually saves ppl from their sins. He does not try to save them, but actually saves them. You are the one pouring your theology into the text.
It did not say "He shall 'try to' save His ppl from their sins."
It did not came "He came to seek and 'try to' save them that were lost."
It did not say "Christ came into the world to 'try to' save sinners."
He saves all those He wills to be saved and none else.
Yes, none are worthy to be His people though. Why would God choose a particular group of people? There is not anything special about anyone. That doesn't make sense.
It makes more sense that we unworthy ones accept God's invitation... to what we don't deserve. God picking some... implies something special about us. This implies that God NEEDED a particular portion of mankind. God does not need anyone of us. He did not even need to create us, but God needs to choose a few.
The bible repeatedly states that whoever wills... whoever accepts God's invitation.
No, it does not say that he tries, it says that whoever wills will have everlasting life. God has done enough to save the world. We merely need to accept his invitation. Scripture clearly states that the condition of man accepting Him in faith is necessary.
John 3:17
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.
^I imagine you interpret this verse as... "some of the world is condemned".... and "some of the world is saved", right? You don't find a problem with that?
Here's the Greek definition according to biblehub.com.
Definition: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.
Strong's Greek: 2889. κόσμος (kosmos) -- order, the world
I don't think this word is to be understood as proportional. The bible does use words to specify proportions.
It makes more sense that we unworthy ones accept God's invitation... to what we don't deserve. God picking some... implies something special about us. This implies that God NEEDED a particular portion of mankind. God does not need anyone of us. He did not even need to create us, but God needs to choose a few.
The bible repeatedly states that whoever wills... whoever accepts God's invitation.
No, it does not say that he tries, it says that whoever wills will have everlasting life. God has done enough to save the world. We merely need to accept his invitation. Scripture clearly states that the condition of man accepting Him in faith is necessary.
John 3:17
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.
^I imagine you interpret this verse as... "some of the world is condemned".... and "some of the world is saved", right? You don't find a problem with that?
Here's the Greek definition according to biblehub.com.
Definition: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.
Strong's Greek: 2889. κόσμος (kosmos) -- order, the world
I don't think this word is to be understood as proportional. The bible does use words to specify proportions.
That's neither here nor there, as we are not talking about ppl's worthiness. But I agree, none are worthy.
Because He loves them. He told Israel "The Lord did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. But it was because the Lord loved you and kept the oath he swore to your ancestors that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt."[Deuteronomy 7:7,8] Its right there for you to read. Now, the 'Golden Chain of Redemption' follows along those same lines, as those God foreknew(pre-arrangement), He loved them(us) from before the creation of the world and chose them in Christ. For those God foreknew(pre-arranged) He predestined to be conformed to the inage of the Christ. Those He predestined, He called. Those He called, He justified. Those He justified, He glorified. Now, if everybody w/o exception was involved in this 'Golden Chain of Redemption' than all will be saved, and hello universalism. Because all these He foreknew, predestined, called, justified, He also glorified, which refers to the new body that is like Jesus' most glorious body.
Zactly.
It does when you avow that which the bible avows.
All those who are saved were unworthy. That's not the point, that's neither here nor there. All those God invites will come. All that my Father gives Me comes to me, and those who come to Me, I will never cast aside. If all w/o exception are involved in this, then hello universalism.
Nope, not even close. We were children of wrath, even as others.[Eph. 2:2]
Red herring.
Bingo!! Yet, He chose a multitude to save through the efficacious works of the Christ.
God didn't even need to choose a few, but He did. That shows how merciful He and gracious He is.
Bingo!
Ah yes, man must do his part. The dead can not hear, see, move, exercise their will, and yet they need to exercise their faith?
Again, He will save His ppl from their sins. He does not try to save all, but He saves all He wills to save, not one more, not one less.
But the world does not mean 'everybody whoever lived.'
Because He loves them. He told Israel "The Lord did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. But it was because the Lord loved you and kept the oath he swore to your ancestors that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt."[Deuteronomy 7:7,8] Its right there for you to read. Now, the 'Golden Chain of Redemption' follows along those same lines, as those God foreknew(pre-arrangement), He loved them(us) from before the creation of the world and chose them in Christ. For those God foreknew(pre-arranged) He predestined to be conformed to the inage of the Christ. Those He predestined, He called. Those He called, He justified. Those He justified, He glorified. Now, if everybody w/o exception was involved in this 'Golden Chain of Redemption' than all will be saved, and hello universalism. Because all these He foreknew, predestined, called, justified, He also glorified, which refers to the new body that is like Jesus' most glorious body.
Zactly.
It does when you avow that which the bible avows.
All those who are saved were unworthy. That's not the point, that's neither here nor there. All those God invites will come. All that my Father gives Me comes to me, and those who come to Me, I will never cast aside. If all w/o exception are involved in this, then hello universalism.
Nope, not even close. We were children of wrath, even as others.[Eph. 2:2]
Red herring.
Bingo!! Yet, He chose a multitude to save through the efficacious works of the Christ.
God didn't even need to choose a few, but He did. That shows how merciful He and gracious He is.
Bingo!
Ah yes, man must do his part. The dead can not hear, see, move, exercise their will, and yet they need to exercise their faith?
Again, He will save His ppl from their sins. He does not try to save all, but He saves all He wills to save, not one more, not one less.
But the world does not mean 'everybody whoever lived.'
