Lets Talk Free Choice

kaylagrl · May 18, 2017

Again,the Holy Spirit draws man. He is able to respond or the Bible would not say come,repent,call,believe. God isn't stepping on the leash,Im not saying He is. Im saying if,as you say,some are elected and others are not that would be God stepping on the leash saying "come" when we cannot,repent,when we are incapable.

SovereignGrace · May 18, 2017

kaylagrl said:

How does the Spirit draw ppl? Via the word of God. Many died never hearing it. How could He draw those who never heard it?

Read up on the OT. This choice was given to God's ppl, Israel. It was not given to the Egyptians, Assyrians, Philistines, Jebusite, Hittites, Hivvities, &c.

This choice is now given to God's ppl in NT days, the church.

Yet, Psalm 14 and Romans 3 says there are NONE who seek Him.

This choice is given to God's chosen ppl.

SovereignGrace · May 18, 2017

kaylagrl said:

You are conflating the general call of the gospel that goes out to all with the effectual call that goes to God's chosen ppl.

Angela53510 · May 18, 2017

kaylagrl said:

I think he was referring to false conversions. People who sign up for a "get out of hell free" card, with no change, no Spirit led repentance, or bearing fruit.

Once God saves us, he keeps us! But a mental assent in an emotional moment is not being born from above. Now, altar calls do not necessarily always result in false conversions. There may be some, where God uses that moment to truly save them, especially if the Word of God has been preached in power! But it was God who predestined that person to be saved. He initiated the changes, resulting in true repentance from the heart!

It seems like such a shallow and man centered gospel, to think we make the choice, in our evil fallen state to be saved! What could be more prideful and puffed up, than to think an unregenerate person can tell God he wants to be saved! What a mockery of the gospel, to think we are equal partners with God in salvation.

God is sovereign. He does not lose those he has presdestined and chosen to be his adopted children. How could we walk away from God? Where would we go, when God is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent? Why would God allow one of his children to walk away? A good parent will not let go of their child who is rebelling! How much more does a good God, who commands the universe know how to draw his own to him, and keep them?

When I lived under the threat I could lose my salvation for any little sin, I was no different than the Canaanites or the Jebusites, with their capricious gods, who couldn't be trusted because if a whim, who were nothing but dead idols. That is what Arminianism is to me! It is trying to appease a distant dead god, by the works of my unredeemed will. I praise the living God that he had me walk away from those false and negative doctrines that kept me in fear and bondage of losing my salvation!

Yet I do believe we need to be walking with God and obeying him every day! But it is God, through the Holy Spirit who gives me both the desire for obedience and the ability to pick up my cross daily and follow him!

trofimus · May 18, 2017

kaylagrl said:

God can command whatever we are theoretically able to do.

If we cannot do it practically, because we fell in Adam and because we are accustomed to doing evil, it is not God stepping on the leash. He is not forcing us to do evil nor He is restraining us from doing good.

He can change our evilness by His special grace, He does this for the elect.

In your scenario it would be like God created a dog for fast running, dog was eating too much, got fat and now God says - run! And the dog cannot do it.

Is God stepping on its leash? No.

preacher4truth · May 18, 2017

Read Matthew 11:25-30. Note, Sovereign election, revealing of the Son.

To some.

And then the call to these, whom Christ has been revealed who are heavy laden to come to Christ and to find rest.

BTW, it isn't "we" who are saying "some are elected" it is the Scriptures that teach this, and we are only speaking of that truth revealed.

notmyown · May 18, 2017

kaylagrl said:

hey, sis, as usual i came in at the end of the thread. (no disrespect intended, i hope you know)

there is a tension in the Bible we have to accept.
in 1 Peter God requires us (believers) to be holy, but who among us would say they do this?
not i. in fact, the longer i abide, the more i see my own sin on a deeper level, as i'm sure you do, too.
He does require of us what we cannot do as He is the Standard of righteousness and holiness. this standard doesn't become invalid because humans aren't able to live up to it.

so God commands everyone to repent and believe the Gospel, and it's God Who grants repentance.
He commands we believe in Him, and He grants that we believe.

God commands what is holy and right even though we cannot accomplish it.
and He gives the ability to do what we absolutely cannot do for ourselves.

does that make sense, that people cannot come to Christ apart from God's intervention any more than you or i can be sinless (tho we surely try to mortify the flesh, etc.) even though God commands it?

a thing isn't just because it appears so to us, rather a thing is just because God does it.

did i make things worse for you? lol
thank you for dialoguing with us.

kaylagrl · May 18, 2017

SovereignGrace said:

Adam and Eve had an innocence,they did not know sin,but they were not sinless and the choice to sin was there,which they chose.

The Bible says that “God saw every thing that he had made, and behold, it was very good” (Gn 1:31). Never is it said, however, that Adam and Eve were perfect. That word is applied to man, but never to mean without sin. To Abraham God said, “...walk before me, and be thou perfect” (Gn 17:1); of Job it is said “...that man was perfect and upright” (Job:1:1
); Jesus commanded, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect” (Mt 5:48); Paul says that Scripture is given “that the man of God may be perfect” (2 Tm 3:17); etc. The meaning is maturity and a heart that desires to please God and do His will—but not without the possibility to sin. The Bible clearly says, “For there is not a just man upon the earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not” (Eccl 7:20), and “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Rom:3:23
). Sin is coming short of the glory of God, in whose image Adam and Eve were created. Only God is perfect in the full sense of being without the possibility of sinning. Thus Jesus said, “...there is none good but one, that is, God” (Mt 19:17).
Adam and Eve must have been created with the power of choice, or God would not have given them a command and punished them for disobeying it. No one, not even Eve who was deceived by Satan, Judas of whom it is said that “Satan entered into him” (Jn:13:27
), or Ananias and Sapphira whose hearts “Satan filled...to lie to the Holy Ghost” (Acts:5:3
) can blame his or her sin on the devil; nor does God ever tempt man to sin (Jas 1:13), much less cause anyone to sin. All are without excuse.
If Adam and Eve were forced (or even tricked) into doing something against their will, they could hardly be held accountable, nor could that act be called sin. It makes even less sense that God would have caused them to sin. Thus God would be the author of evil and we would have the contradiction of God telling them not to eat of the tree, causing them to do so, then punishing them for disobeying Him—a thought repugnant to human conscience and logic.

The difference between Adam and Eve and all of their offspring is a simple one: the former were created by God in a state of innocence and intimate fellowship with Him. No doubt the Spirit of God dwelt within their spirits in close communion. When they sinned, the Spirit of God departed, bringing immediate spiritual death, which affected their bodies and eventually brought physical death. As the children of Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel could only be born into the state of sin, separation and death that had become the condition of their parents. And so it is with all of us.

https://www.thebereancall.org/content/february-2002-q-and-a-3

Issachar92 · May 18, 2017

kaylagrl said:

Amen right there! Thats exactly how it is! You can take that to the bank.

notmyown · May 18, 2017

God is not the author of evil.

and why are we talking leashes?? better go back and read, eh?

kaylagrl · May 18, 2017

SovereignGrace said:

Quote "How does the Spirit draw ppl? Via the word of God. Many died never hearing it. How could He draw those who never heard it?

No,back round the circle again.The Bible says men are without excuse.No one can stand and the final judgement and say "well Lord,I never got a Bible,I lived in a place with no tv,no radio,I never heard the Gospel" No! If God can talk through a burning bush He can and has made a way for men to seek and to know Him.

A missionary my sister knows went to a remote village to bring the Gospel.The village elder met him and welcomed him and said they had had visions of a man named Jesus and that God was going to send someone to teach them more.No! God gives all an opportunity to know Him.No one who is destined for hell at the final judgement will be able to accuse God because they did not have the opportunity to come to Him.Ive heard this before here and it is not true.We are without excuse.

Quote " Read up on the OT. This choice was given to God's ppl, Israel. It was not given to the Egyptians, Assyrians, Philistines, Jebusite, Hittites, Hivvities, &c.

Please read the OT again,there were Gentiles who believed in the OT called righteous Gentiles.The OT was to the Jew first,as the Bible says again and again,then to the Gentile. The Jew first because they are the chosen people.

Quote "This choice is now given to God's ppl in NT days, the church."

No,the call is now open to the Gentiles,all the others you mentioned were included with the death of Christ.OT to the Jews first,NT to the Gentiles. The church does not replace the Jews.

Quote "This choice is given to God's chosen ppl."

If that is the case both you and I are out of luck.The chosen are the Jews. So we know that is false because we are grafted into the vine.And we know the call is to whosoever will, to the sinner,to the world world. "Go into all the world and preach the Gospel" it is to every man. The chosen have already been told,they were told first in the OT. Salvation was first to the Jews then to the Gentiles.

Quote "Yet, Psalm 14 and Romans 3 says there are NONE who seek Him."

Lets look at this passage of Scripture in Romans,which is quoting Psalms...

[FONT=&quot]What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”[b]
13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”[c]
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”[d]
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”[e]
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”[f]
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[g][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe.

There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith.28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.The verse says it is for "all who believe." Jesus told His disciples to preach what? Repent for the kingdom is at hand. And if they would not receive the message to kick the dust off their feet and move on. The call is to all,the Bible says that often.If people were incapable it would be unjust of God to say come to people who cannot respond. The Bible is both poetic,allegorical and literal. The problem is most people dont know which is which.

This is talking about people who are under the law and that they were sinners and unable to keep the law 100% perfectly. We have a sinful nature,there is no question. And so blood sacrifices were needed to cover our because we do sin and we do go astray. But with the coming of Christ He became the sacrifice for sins,all sins. And when we put our faith in Him God no longer sees our sin. [/FONT]

kaylagrl · May 18, 2017

SovereignGrace said:

The call already went out to Gods chosen in the OT,to the Jews.Now the call is to the Gentiles.

kaylagrl · May 18, 2017

preacher4truth said:

Not the best verses for your point,it ends with "come unto me,all you"...

BeyondET · May 18, 2017

SovereignGrace said:

I agree with the via the word, but sometimes it happens up close like a blinding light on the road to Damascus or a talking donkey...

kaylagrl · May 18, 2017

notmyown said:

You know how the saying goes,get in where you fit in.lol No you did not make things worse but you are free to try again

I understand we cannot reach perfection and I believe God knows this too.And I agree without His grace we are nothing.I agree our nature is to sin and go our own way. I agree its the Holy Spirit,Gods calling,knocking,telling us to come and it takes the Holy Spirit for us to do so. The Bible says the God will only strive with man for a time. So we actually do agree on a lot.yay! I just do not believe nor see mans told inability to respond to God. Too many verses that prove that wrong.I do not believe God chooses some and bars others. I believe we willfully chose sin or we listen to the Spirits call and when we do we are able to accept Him into our hearts. So I actually think you and I are pretty close in belief.

kaylagrl · May 18, 2017

notmyown said:

Lol about four pages back you will find it. I know,Im lost and trying to catch up too. I leave and come back to ten pages to respond to!

preacher4truth · May 18, 2017

Angela53510 said:

I think he was referring to false conversions. People who sign up for a "get out of hell free" card, with no change, no Spirit led repentance, or bearing fruit.

Once God saves us, he keeps us! But a mental assent in an emotional moment is not being born from above. Now, altar calls do not necessarily always result in false conversions. There may be some, where God uses that moment to truly save them, especially if the Word of God has been preached in power! But it was God who predestined that person to be saved. He initiated the changes, resulting in true repentance from the heart!

It seems like such a shallow and man centered gospel, to think we make the choice, in our evil fallen state to be saved! What could be more prideful and puffed up, than to think an unregenerate person can tell God he wants to be saved! What a mockery of the gospel, to think we are equal partners with God in salvation.

God is sovereign. He does not lose those he has presdestined and chosen to be his adopted children. How could we walk away from God? Where would we go, when God is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent? Why would God allow one of his children to walk away? A good parent will not let go of their child who is rebelling! How much more does a good God, who commands the universe know how to draw his own to him, and keep them?

When I lived under the threat I could lose my salvation for any little sin, I was no different than the Canaanites or the Jebusites, with their capricious gods, who couldn't be trusted because if a whim, who were nothing but dead idols. That is what Arminianism is to me! It is trying to appease a distant dead god, by the works of my unredeemed will. I praise the living God that he had me walk away from those false and negative doctrines that kept me in fear and bondage of losing my salvation!

Yet I do believe we need to be walking with God and obeying him every day! But it is God, through the Holy Spirit who gives me both the desire for obedience and the ability to pick up my cross daily and follow him!

Is it any wonder that people have no real biblical fear of God, but have reduced even that to mere "reverence?"

notmyown · May 18, 2017

kaylagrl said:

since you so kindly offered, i will try again.

you just posted a bunch of verses from Romans 3 that show man's inability and unwillingness to come to Christ.

do you remember Tribesman? (i do miss him so) he once told me that the statements like "choose you this day" and "as for me and my house" etc. were spoken by people already in covenant with God.
he said that had the ability to make such choices because God had already placed them in covenant with Him.

preacher4truth · May 18, 2017

kaylagrl said:

Could you explain how you arrive at that conclusion based upon my statement? FTR, I believe in OSAS.

kaylagrl, you should get these and read them:

https://www.christianbook.com/recovering-the-gospel-3-volumes/paul-washer/pd/78294X

With some study you will find that the gospel being presented today doesn't reflect the Gospel that the early church defended. Today people mockingly call it Lordship Salvation because when they are exposed to the true Gospel they balk at it. This is because they've been indoctrinated into Charles Finney, Robert Sandeman gospel.

Search it out.

Read some of the church fathers and reformers on what the Gospel is, and of its influence upon the truly converted.

preacher4truth · May 18, 2017

notmyown said:

Exactly. Let me share an inconsistency with those who use Joshua 24 for a "choose salvation" proof text. Many of these same people will who use the text for just that will say in other threads that no one in the OT was saved. When shown their inconsistency and error, they no longer want to discuss it. Ponder that for half a second.

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