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Thread: Lets Talk Free Choice

  1. #21
    Senior Member Magenta's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by kaylagrl View Post
    Yes,I think you are right,self will is a better word.I do not believe God has made us machines. As Ravi said in the video how can you have love if you have not choice? Thanks for sharing,very well spoken sister.
    Thank you, Kayla I prefer it also because the choices we make that go against God are from self driven desires, the desires of the flesh, and the pride of life, and as DesertsRose said, Adam and Eve were given a choice: they had free access to the whole garden, with one command not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and they chose the forbidden fruit over the tree of life. These "things" we put ahead of the will of God are really idols.

    Some people say that A&E must have eaten from the tree of life already, but I do not agree with this notion, for the Tree of Life is representative of Jesus Christ, Who is the true vine, and also, the Tree of Life was barred to them upon their expulsion from the garden, with cherubim and flaming swords guarding it that they could not eat of it and live forever in their sinful state.

    We are all gifted with this first life, the life of the flesh, for we are born into Adam, but then it is put to us, we are called to accept through grace the gift of faith in the propitiatory sacrifice Jesus Christ made on our behalf due to His great love for us. He took on the penalty for sin, became sin for us, that we might attain to life ever after through the covering of His righteous blood... this choice is offered to us and if we accept it, we attain to life ever after through the resurrected life of Jesus Christ, for He is the light and life of men. Then we are born again of the Spirit of God, for the flesh counts for nothing. He alone has overcome sin and death, He holds the keys to life and death, in Him we live and move and have our being





    Embrace the Grace and Rejoice in His Everlasting Mercy and Love

  2. #22
    Senior Member kaylagrl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Marano View Post
    Yeah truly, if you have followed C.S Lewis, everything you believe about him has been a lie and deception.

    Good enough,leave CS Lewis out of it. We'll use others and Scripture along the way.
    Stephen63, Marano and Meggido like this.

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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by kaylagrl View Post
    ​I trust you and Trof. watched the videos?
    I listened to you the first time. I already told you I disagree with love being a choice at first, but I do believe becomes choice later.

    He's teaching love is the gospel and without freedom there is robotism. Heard it before. Don't want to dwell on that junk. I've had more than my fair share of junk preaching in my life.
    Lynn

    Still woman, but no lady.

    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Marano View Post
    Yeah truly, if you have followed C.S Lewis, everything you believe about him has been a lie and deception.
    Not really. I love his fiction but rarely agree with his nonfiction. No lie. lol
    Lynn

    Still woman, but no lady.

    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

  5. #25
    Senior Member kaylagrl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Depleted View Post
    I listened to you the first time. I already told you I disagree with love being a choice at first, but I do believe becomes choice later.

    He's teaching love is the gospel and without freedom there is robotism. Heard it before. Don't want to dwell on that junk. I've had more than my fair share of junk preaching in my life.


    I respect Ravi myself,if you dont thats fine.I know what you believe and now Im posting the other side since people in the other thread brought it up again and again. So here's the other side. I dont expect you to agree of course.

  6. #26
    Senior Member kaylagrl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    AW Tozer ...


    “Another real problem created by the doctrine of divine sovereignty has to do with the will of man. If God rules His universe by His sovereign decrees, how is it possible for man to exercise free choice? And if he cannot exercise freedom of choice, how can he be held responsible for his conduct? Is he not a mere puppet whose actions are determined by a behind-the-scenes God who pulls the strings as it pleases Him?
    “The attempt to answer these questions has divided the Christian church neatly into two camps which have borne the names of two distinguished theologians, Jacobus Arminius and John Calvin. Most Christians are content to get into one camp or the other and deny either sovereignty to God or free will to man. It appears possible, however, to reconcile these two positions without doing violence to either, although the effort that follows may prove deficient to partisans of one camp or the other.
    “Here is my view: God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will [p.145] of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say, ‘What doest thou?’ Man’s will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so.”


    Was Tozer right? Is there a middle ground?
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  7. #27
    Senior Member trofimus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    So.. will you provide us with the definition of free will? So we know what to talk about?
    Let the brotherly love stay * Láska bratrská ať zůstává

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    Senior Member FreeNChrist's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Another one from A. W. Tozer that relates a marvelously simple example and explanation of how man's freedom and God's sovereignty are both operative without contradiction:

    "An Ocean liner leaves New York bound for Liverpool. Its destination has been determined by proper authorities. Nothing can change it. This is at least a faint picture of sovereignty.

    On board the Liner are several scores of passengers. These are not in chains, neither are their activities determined for them by decree. They are completely free to move about as they will. They eat, sleep, play, lounge about on the deck, read, talk, altogether as they please; but all the while the great Liner is carrying them steadily onward toward a predetermined port.

    Both freedom and sovereignty are present here and they do not contradict each other. So it is, I believe, with man's freedom and the sovereignty of God. The mighty Liner of God's sovereign design keeps its steady course over the sea of history. God moves undisturbed and unhindered toward the fulfillment of those eternal purposes which He purposed in Christ Jesus before the world began. We do not know all that is included in those purposes, but enough has been disclosed to furnish us with a broad outline of things to come and to give us hope and firm assurance of future well-being."

    Works for me.

    “How foolish can you be? After starting your new lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?”
    Gal 3:3



  9. #29
    Senior Member Desertsrose's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by kaylagrl View Post
    ​I'll get there...
    Basically.......the will of man is freed by God's prevenient grace. God frees our wills so that we can either accept God's free gift of salvation by His grace through faith, or we can reject that gift and believe it's just a bunch of hooey.

    So God may call, draw and convict a person and reveal Himself to them, but they can resist His call, they can resist His grace and conviction and continue on in their life of sin to their own detriment.
    kaylagrl, Magenta and Grace777x70 like this.
    Ezekiel 18:23 Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

  10. #30
    Senior Member Desertsrose's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by kaylagrl View Post
    AW Tozer ...
    “Another real problem created by the doctrine of divine sovereignty has to do with the will of man. If God rules His universe by His sovereign decrees, how is it possible for man to exercise free choice? And if he cannot exercise freedom of choice, how can he be held responsible for his conduct? Is he not a mere puppet whose actions are determined by a behind-the-scenes God who pulls the strings as it pleases Him?“The attempt to answer these questions has divided the Christian church neatly into two camps which have borne the names of two distinguished theologians, Jacobus Arminius and John Calvin. Most Christians are content to get into one camp or the other and deny either sovereignty to God or free will to man. It appears possible, however, to reconcile these two positions without doing violence to either, although the effort that follows may prove deficient to partisans of one camp or the other.“Here is my view: God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will [p.145] of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say, ‘What doest thou?’ Man’s will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so.”Was Tozer right? Is there a middle ground?

    Yes, there's not just two to choose from and I would agree with Tozer. I do believe God in His Sovereignty makes the rules and He gave man the ability to choose or not choose, to have free will or self will. So shall we now call ourselves Tozerites? j/k of course!
    kaylagrl and Grace777x70 like this.
    Ezekiel 18:23 Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

  11. #31
    Senior Member kaylagrl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    In the Bible there are verses that take about choice,about the free will of man. Why would God say such things if the choice of election had already been made?

    Joshua says,
    And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

    If the choice has been made before we reach earth why say "choose"?


    Rev. says,

    Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

    Again it is shown that man has a choice,Jesus is knocking,He is calling.

    Deut.,

    I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,...

    Again,that word,choose. Choose life. How can we choose if the choice was made for us?


    Romans says,

    Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.


    Ezek. says,

    “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord God. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live.”


    Is. -“Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

    2 Peter,

    The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

    These verses show me that man is able to make a choice for against good and evil. That man is told to repent,to turn,to come.All of which would not be necessary if we were already elected.


    Grace777x70 and Desertsrose like this.

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    Senior Member pckts's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by kaylagrl View Post
    do we have choice or do we not?
    This is a topic atheists love to ponder and the propaganda machine supporting them raises questions and casts doubts about.

    Why does the government and atheism support this kind of thinking? Is it because it is true, or because it is backed by the scientific community and the philosophers or champions of atheism propped up by the government?

    The Bible says we have free-will, and all the people who have an agenda and vested interest against The Bible say we do not have free will.

    Who is more likely to lie to you?
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    For this cause did the Lord Jesus Christ tell us that if any will follow Him we must deny ourselves, which by the way is too deny our own will; disown it, and submit to and rely upon God's will by His Word. As for practical application, we can either repent when we sin, or continue in sin and repent not; this is our choice: one way is defiance to God; the other way is submitting to the will of God.
    kaylagrl and Meggido like this.
    And they went out and preached that men should repent.
    (Mark 6:12)
    A man can receive nothing except it be given him from heaven.
    (John 3:27)

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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by lastofall View Post
    For this cause did the Lord Jesus Christ tell us that if any will follow Him we must deny ourselves, which by the way is too deny our own will; disown it, and submit to and rely upon God's will by His Word. As for practical application, we can either repent when we sin, or continue in sin and repent not; this is our choice: one way is defiance to God; the other way is submitting to the will of God.
    Be careful the others will accuse of Lordship Salvation.

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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Philippians 2:13 (NASB)
    13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

    I believe God persuades us by His love and grace towards us and when we see His love for us - we respond to this love.

    Then He continues to work in us both to will ( He births His desires in us because we are now one spirit with the Lord 1 Cor. 6:17 ) and He gives us the capability also.

    This way His plans are carried out and the exercising of our own will is included as well for the Christian who is one spirit with the Lord.
    kaylagrl likes this.

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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by kaylagrl View Post
    John 5


    "40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."

    Why would He some come if we had no choice?

    God.

    How did you fall in love with choice?
    Lynn

    Still woman, but no lady.

    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by kaylagrl View Post
    I respect Ravi myself,if you dont thats fine.I know what you believe and now Im posting the other side since people in the other thread brought it up again and again. So here's the other side. I dont expect you to agree of course.
    Okay. Then if we're just going to post what other's say on it, here's one:
    (Source: http://www.ligonier.org/learn/devoti...hat-free-will/)

    “For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing” (Rom. 7:19).
    - Romans 7:19

    Any time we broach this subject of divine election, the question inevitably arises: “What about my free will?” If God chooses those who will be saved, am I free to make my own decisions?
    Certain assumptions about the nature of our freedom usually lurk behind this question. Most people in the West, including Christians, unconsciously accept what is usually called the “libertarian view” of free will. This understanding of human freedom says that we have the ability to make spontaneous choices contrary to our dispositions and inclinations. Nothing determines our choices. We are always able to choose good or evil. Our wills are wholly neutral.
    Yet there are two problems with this definition of free will. First, if we make decisions spontaneously, there can be no reason or motivation for our choice. But since we know God takes our motivations into account (Num. 15:22–31), how can He judge us guilty or innocent if no motivation, good or evil, prompts our choice? Second, if our wills are neutral, why do we make decisions at all? For example, consider what would happen if I were presented with an apple and an orange and must decide which one to eat. If I am neutral I will have no preference for either fruit and no reason to choose one or the other. Nothing will move me to pick one, and I will starve to death.
    In The Freedom of the Will, Jonathan Edwards defines biblical freedom. Man is free, he says, to choose according to his disposition. Human beings always choose according to their strongest desire, and so we make free choices. We do what we want to do. Some may object that people often choose the undesirable, such as handing a wallet over to a mugger. But even if I do this, my strongest inclination has prompted my choice. All things being equal, I do not desire to give my wallet away. But if my choice is my wallet or my life, and I hand over my wallet, I prove that I want to live more than I want money.
    Apart from Christ, we are dead in sin (Eph. 2:1) and wholly disposed to hate God. We only want darkness, and so we freely choose to reject Him. We freely choose to love and to serve Jesus only if the Spirit changes our hearts (John 3:1–8). Otherwise we remain lost.
    Lynn

    Still woman, but no lady.

    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

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    Senior Member Angela53510's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Marano View Post
    I'd say C.S Lewis is not someone christians should be quoting about anything, if anyone does research on him they find out what his life was really about, as well as his books. Paganism, witchcraft and the like.
    Sorry to get off topic, but I guess KG opened the door with her quote!

    My question, Mariano, is have you read his books? Because I have read about 20 of them, not including his Sci- Fi series and his children's stories. I have not read the the non-fiction recently, so there may be more I disagree with than I used to, but he is still one of the first great apologists for the Christian faith.

    I remember back in the 1980's, everyone was pointing to CS Lewis and saying Narnia was evil. That was legalism and evil, IMHO! But, I have read them pretty much every year since I bought them in 1971 when I was hanging out in my university book store, and the more I read them, the more Scriptures I see, the more I see God glorified, and the more amazing and sound the books are. I read them out loud to my kids 3 separate times, because we had big age gaps between our kids. The books are a unique way of communicating the gospel.

    Because the whole series is about a world created was perfectly, sin entered, the creator God had to be sacrificed for a traitor or sin, and he redeems everything. And yes, he is Arminian, one of the 4 original children slips away from God and thinks all their childhood adventures were just fairy tales. Although maybe she came back to God after the series ends?

    Anyway, those books are treasures to me. They are so well written, that a child can understand them, but they incorporate a depth of theology that has taken me 40 years to understand.

    And KG, next time, don't quote people, as much as I respect CS Lewis, quote the Bible to support your theology. I see you finally did in the second page. But by that time, too many videos (I don't watch videos!) and other things just took away from the BIBLE discussion!
    Grandpa and kaylagrl like this.
    "And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me." 2 Cor. 12:9 NASB

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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    If you're into philosophical solutions (which tend to make my head spin from way-too-much-thinkingism lol) you'll like this guy. (Andrew Naselli) This is just a hint of how he takes this and it's at the end of a very logical article.

    "2. Recognize that other orthodox Christians who disagree with you on this issue are not the enemy! Although some Christian leaders have embraced what I think are errant views on free will, many of them have been godly men worthy of emulation (e.g., John Wesley). So disagreeing with them on this particular issue in no way questions their devotion to Christ."

    There is nothing left unearthed by the time he's done. I think he even unearthed a dust particle from 1942. (Hyperbole said with abundance of humor.)

    I do hope you get to at least all the possible definitions of free will, although his handy-dandy chart made it much easier for me to understand both of our views.

    Do we have free will?
    Angela53510 and ForthAngel like this.
    Lynn

    Still woman, but no lady.

    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by kaylagrl View Post
    AW Tozer ...


    “Another real problem created by the doctrine of divine sovereignty has to do with the will of man. If God rules His universe by His sovereign decrees, how is it possible for man to exercise free choice? And if he cannot exercise freedom of choice, how can he be held responsible for his conduct? Is he not a mere puppet whose actions are determined by a behind-the-scenes God who pulls the strings as it pleases Him?
    “The attempt to answer these questions has divided the Christian church neatly into two camps which have borne the names of two distinguished theologians, Jacobus Arminius and John Calvin. Most Christians are content to get into one camp or the other and deny either sovereignty to God or free will to man. It appears possible, however, to reconcile these two positions without doing violence to either, although the effort that follows may prove deficient to partisans of one camp or the other.
    “Here is my view: God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will [p.145] of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say, ‘What doest thou?’ Man’s will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so.”


    Was Tozer right? Is there a middle ground?
    Honestly? He might call it middle-ground, but that's reformed beliefs. He just skipped the "And when he chooses to do good" part for the obvious reason, no man chooses to do good.

    However, if that suits you, and you want to call that middle-ground, then cool. Because yay! We do agree.
    kaylagrl likes this.
    Lynn

    Still woman, but no lady.

    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

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