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Quote "Lot's of disdain being displayed above toward God's electing grace...really, really sad. It is also a straw man argument intended to be inflammatory toward those of us who believe what Scripture teaches concerning election.
You know I really get tired of people playing the victim when their belief is questioned. This is a discussion forum,we discuss.If you cant take people questioning Calvinism you're in the wrong place. Im Pentecostal,no one gets more flack than us. So please spare us the victim card.Asking questions is not being inflammatory. Im trying to dig to the truth of what you are saying and providing verses where I think you're wrong. Im not out to get anyone,Im out to share the truth and I call it as I see it.Has nothing to do with disdain.So stop it.
Quote "Now, as for children, don't be so certain and presumptuous, use wise caution. I say this from experience of seeing children doing this without even understanding anything about the Gospel. Over-zealous parents are the primary cause, or VBS, where they have gotten the child to raise their hand "if they want to go to heaven" then they get dunked. Maybe that's your gospel method, but it isn't the Bible's Gospel nor method of salvation. What must the child understand? That they want to go to heaven? That they want to do it because their friend got baptized, so they too want to get dunked? That if they give all the right answers to a check list, they're declared saved? (That's making mental assent to facts).
No,talk about strawmen! That is not what I was saying at all.I said the Gospel is simple enough for a child to understand.Jesus came,He died for our sin,we can be saved.Simple.I said nothing about VBS,kids getting dunked or anything of the kind. I believe Sunday school is important for kids and VBS many parents have been brought to church to hear the truth because of these ministries.
Quote "If you ask a child why he or she wants to be saved, ask them if they know what Jesus is saving them from, without putting words in their mouth like "Do you realize you're a sinner?" and/or "Do you want to go to heaven when you die? Let me show you from the Bible that you can go to heaven when you die?" That is all manipulation. If God is working in them to be saved they'll know this, because they have been convicted, and they don't need to answer a check list of statements and make mental assent to it.
You're way off the reservation. Have no idea what you're going on about. I said the Gospel is simple to understand and you're off on a tangent. But again,I think the Gospel is for all,as Gods Word said. It seems by what you're saying we have to drag half the kids out of the room because they're not supposed to be convicted about heaven. Telling kids about the Gospel is a good thing to do and it is a ministry.
Quote"Many are using the false invention of Finney in dealing with people and are clueless to it; (his anxious seat invention, where deciding for heaven is the same thing as making a career choice, and many false converts were added to local congregations). People use "the chair illustration" "Being saved is just like sitting in this chair, you sit in it because you know by faith it will support you. It's the same with Jesus." This is conflating common trust with the supernatural gift of faith. It is spiritual chicanery, manipulation, craftiness in the negative sense, and what Scripture calls underhanded ways of presenting the Gospel; 2 Corinthians 4:2.
This is why there are so many false conversions. Obviously God did a work in the heart of the jailer which is why he believed. We believe only by the power of God that raised Christ from the dead; Ephesians 1:19. "
I have no problem with people coming to an altar.I was in traveling ministry 20yrs had a lot of altar calls in that time.If you're going to tell me all that came to the altar were false conversions I;ll tell you that nonsense. Now,I do not believe that simply going to the altar saves you and you're good for life.We never gave those kinds of calls. But the altar is where many have been drawn by the Holy Spirit,convicted of sin and accepted Him. Some dont grow,some walk away like the parable of the sower.That doesn't make altar calls wrong.The jailer believed and was saved,simple enough for a child to understand.
You know I really get tired of people playing the victim when their belief is questioned. This is a discussion forum,we discuss.If you cant take people questioning Calvinism you're in the wrong place. Im Pentecostal,no one gets more flack than us. So please spare us the victim card.Asking questions is not being inflammatory. Im trying to dig to the truth of what you are saying and providing verses where I think you're wrong. Im not out to get anyone,Im out to share the truth and I call it as I see it.Has nothing to do with disdain.So stop it.
Quote "Now, as for children, don't be so certain and presumptuous, use wise caution. I say this from experience of seeing children doing this without even understanding anything about the Gospel. Over-zealous parents are the primary cause, or VBS, where they have gotten the child to raise their hand "if they want to go to heaven" then they get dunked. Maybe that's your gospel method, but it isn't the Bible's Gospel nor method of salvation. What must the child understand? That they want to go to heaven? That they want to do it because their friend got baptized, so they too want to get dunked? That if they give all the right answers to a check list, they're declared saved? (That's making mental assent to facts).
No,talk about strawmen! That is not what I was saying at all.I said the Gospel is simple enough for a child to understand.Jesus came,He died for our sin,we can be saved.Simple.I said nothing about VBS,kids getting dunked or anything of the kind. I believe Sunday school is important for kids and VBS many parents have been brought to church to hear the truth because of these ministries.
Quote "If you ask a child why he or she wants to be saved, ask them if they know what Jesus is saving them from, without putting words in their mouth like "Do you realize you're a sinner?" and/or "Do you want to go to heaven when you die? Let me show you from the Bible that you can go to heaven when you die?" That is all manipulation. If God is working in them to be saved they'll know this, because they have been convicted, and they don't need to answer a check list of statements and make mental assent to it.
You're way off the reservation. Have no idea what you're going on about. I said the Gospel is simple to understand and you're off on a tangent. But again,I think the Gospel is for all,as Gods Word said. It seems by what you're saying we have to drag half the kids out of the room because they're not supposed to be convicted about heaven. Telling kids about the Gospel is a good thing to do and it is a ministry.
Quote"Many are using the false invention of Finney in dealing with people and are clueless to it; (his anxious seat invention, where deciding for heaven is the same thing as making a career choice, and many false converts were added to local congregations). People use "the chair illustration" "Being saved is just like sitting in this chair, you sit in it because you know by faith it will support you. It's the same with Jesus." This is conflating common trust with the supernatural gift of faith. It is spiritual chicanery, manipulation, craftiness in the negative sense, and what Scripture calls underhanded ways of presenting the Gospel; 2 Corinthians 4:2.
This is why there are so many false conversions. Obviously God did a work in the heart of the jailer which is why he believed. We believe only by the power of God that raised Christ from the dead; Ephesians 1:19. "
I have no problem with people coming to an altar.I was in traveling ministry 20yrs had a lot of altar calls in that time.If you're going to tell me all that came to the altar were false conversions I;ll tell you that nonsense. Now,I do not believe that simply going to the altar saves you and you're good for life.We never gave those kinds of calls. But the altar is where many have been drawn by the Holy Spirit,convicted of sin and accepted Him. Some dont grow,some walk away like the parable of the sower.That doesn't make altar calls wrong.The jailer believed and was saved,simple enough for a child to understand.
