Lets Talk Free Choice

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phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
2,111
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#61

Hi Phil,

Romans 1:18-25

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever.
Amen.


~
Mankind knows the truth and suppress it with their unrighteous deeds. God has made Himself evident to all and He constantly shows us in the old and the new that their free will to choose life or not.

In their knowledge of God they by their own free will chose not to acknowledge Him as God, they neither gave Him thanks nor Honored Him as God. Instead they became futile in their thinking and began to worship creatures that God made instead of God Himself.

So mankind knows truth, they know God and yet they of their own free will, they choose to exchange the truth for a lie and live their lives without Him, finding other ways to worship. If they don't worship and serve God, the only other alternative is to worship creation.

So in the final analysis, they are without excuse and they willingly choose to come under God's wrath.
Hi Desertrose,

Romans 1 (&2) really shows the sinfulness of man and as the whole of scripture describes again and again - his sinful nature.

Its good that the Bible clearly tells us that humankind will always choose freely from thier nature. Of course that is different from the Arminian 'autonomous free will'.
 
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pottersclay

Guest
#62
From the beginning God gave Adam and Eve a free will to choose to eat from the Tree of Life and live or to choose from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. They CHOSE to eat from the wrong tree.
I'm gonna like this thread. I might learn something here and if I get it through my thick head and down to my heart yea me.

Ok here we go....not for one moment do I see free Will here in the garden. God said don't eat you'll die. Period. He did not say it's up to you to decide.
What I do see here is God's righteousness to instruct, discipline, on the grounds of disobedience.
Teaching that disobedience comes with a price,
In the beginning God created the heavens and earth. First chapter of John tells us he did this through his word (Jesus) all things were created by him. All things are held together by him.
Which brings us to the conclusion all things are controlled by him. Natural design.
God uses good and evil for his purposes. Ill stop here for any rebuttal or stones.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,408
3,455
113
#63
I started a thread on Calvinism asking for their POV. I learned things about Calvinism I had not known before.One of the main struggles seems to be the issue of free choice,do we have choice or do we not? Each side has its ideas and it can be an interesting discussion if it doesnt turn into a free for all where no one gets heard. So here we go. Again I'll be up front,I believe in free will. If you do not please be respectful in your answers.


“God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong, but I can't. If a thing is free to be good it's also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata -of creatures that worked like machines- would hardly be worth creating. The happiness which God designs for His higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to Him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with which the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk and water. And for that they've got to be free.
Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently, He thought it worth the risk. (...) If God thinks this state of war in the universe a price worth paying for free will -that is, for making a real world in which creatures can do real good or harm and something of real importance can happen, instead of a toy world which only moves when He pulls the strings- then we may take it it is worth paying.”

C.S. Lewis, The Case for Christianity
Of course God created us with the ability to chose freely whaty we believe and who we will trust..

Deuteronomy 30: KJV
18 "I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. {19} I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:"

The calvinist delusion that no one has free will is simply that a delusion..



Joshua 24: KJV
14 "¶ Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD. {15} And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. {16} And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods;"

Calvinism declares that God created people who has no ability to be chose Gods will and be saved. Calvinism claims that God created some for the sole purpose to burn forever in the Lake of fire in doing so they are declaring that god does not desire all to repent and come to salvation..

2 Peter 3: KJV
9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

The 5 tulip points of Calvinism tie them up into a delusion that declares that God is a psychopath that creates people simply to burn with no hope and it also declares Scriptures that clearly who men being called to chose and Gods desire for all to come to repentance false scriptures... I wonder when they will go through the scriptures and remove these verses?
 
Dec 17, 2013
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#64
I think that life is nothing but a test and God gives us free will in order to literally test us to see if we truly believe His advice,those that figure that out pass those that fail.
 
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pckts

Guest
#65
I think that life is nothing but a test and God gives us free will in order to literally test us to see if we truly believe His advice,those that figure that out pass those that fail.
“A farmer went out to sow seed. [SUP]4 [/SUP]While he was scattering the seed, some of it fell by the road. The birds came and ate all that seed. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Other seed fell on rocky ground, where there was not enough dirt. It grew very fast there, because the soil was not deep. [SUP]6 [/SUP]But when the sun rose, it burned the plants. The plants died because they did not have deep roots. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Some other seed fell among thorny weeds. The weeds grew and stopped the good plants from growing. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But some of the seed fell on good ground. There it grew and made grain. Some plants made 100 times more grain, some 60 times more, and some 30 times more. [SUP]9 [/SUP]You people who hear me, listen!”


Christ even had to preach in this way because of free will.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,784
4,451
113
#66
First 3 doctrines of Calvinism is against free will before saving and the last 2 is against free will after saving.

Basically puppet theology.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,408
3,455
113
#67
Good question since I have no problems with free choice. Big problems with free will.
Free will is ones ability to make a free choice... Without free will no one can make a choice..
 
Jun 1, 2016
5,032
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#68
I started a thread on Calvinism asking for their POV. I learned things about Calvinism I had not known before.One of the main struggles seems to be the issue of free choice,do we have choice or do we not? Each side has its ideas and it can be an interesting discussion if it doesnt turn into a free for all where no one gets heard. So here we go. Again I'll be up front,I believe in free will. If you do not please be respectful in your answers.


“God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong, but I can't. If a thing is free to be good it's also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata -of creatures that worked like machines- would hardly be worth creating. The happiness which God designs for His higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to Him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with which the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk and water. And for that they've got to be free.
Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently, He thought it worth the risk. (...) If God thinks this state of war in the universe a price worth paying for free will -that is, for making a real world in which creatures can do real good or harm and something of real importance can happen, instead of a toy world which only moves when He pulls the strings- then we may take it it is worth paying.”

C.S. Lewis, The Case for Christianity

i too believe 100 percent that we have the freedom to choose. if there was no choice, why is temptation what we are to overcome? when we are tempted, its an offer, and when we are instructed of God, its an offer. Both have consequences or rewards. the Bible Makes no sense without the ability to choose from eden to revelation.
 

ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
2,171
91
48
#69
From the beginning God gave Adam and Eve a free will to choose to eat from the Tree of Life and live or to choose from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. They CHOSE to eat from the wrong tree.
Adam and Eve would have had a will more free than those who came after the fall. They weren't tainted by sin nature yet. Their freedom I would liken more unto the freedom we have in Christ.

And to further that, some seem to be confusing freedom in Christ with the state of the will in fallen unregenerate man. The bible uses some intense language to describe the state of a fallen man. Dead, a slave, estranged, alienated, carnally minded, unable to submit to God's law, unable to please God, works are like filthy rags, unrighteous, heart of stone, none seek after him, and so on. The bible shows that mind, heart, and flesh are all in bondage to sin apart from Christ and the Holy Spirit indwelling.
 

OneFaith

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2016
2,270
369
83
#70
I started a thread on Calvinism asking for their POV. I learned things about Calvinism I had not known before.One of the main struggles seems to be the issue of free choice,do we have choice or do we not? Each side has its ideas and it can be an interesting discussion if it doesnt turn into a free for all where no one gets heard. So here we go. Again I'll be up front,I believe in free will. If you do not please be respectful in your answers.


“God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong, but I can't. If a thing is free to be good it's also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata -of creatures that worked like machines- would hardly be worth creating. The happiness which God designs for His higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to Him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with which the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk and water. And for that they've got to be free.
Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently, He thought it worth the risk. (...) If God thinks this state of war in the universe a price worth paying for free will -that is, for making a real world in which creatures can do real good or harm and something of real importance can happen, instead of a toy world which only moves when He pulls the strings- then we may take it it is worth paying.”

C.S. Lewis, The Case for Christianity
Tell them to raise their hand to their head, then to lower it again, to move it side to side. Then ask them if God forced their hand up and down, and from side to side, or if they chose to do it (or not do it) of their own free will?

Of course we have free will, God is not a liar. Why does the word "if" appear so many times in the Bible if we have no choices to make?
 
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vic1980

Senior Member
Apr 25, 2013
1,653
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#71

I wonder how many are aware of this , ravi zacharias and his faith as many televagelist in this generation hmm

Mission and Vision | RZIM

Statement of Faith

We believe in God the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth; And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead and buried; the third day he rose from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from there he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church, the communion of the saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting."


Time to wake up , for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Shalom with love
 
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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
54,910
25,564
113
#72
I wonder how many are aware of this , ravi zacharias and his faith as many televagelist in this generation hmm

Mission and Vision | RZIM

Statement of Faith

We believe in God the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth; And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead and buried; the third day he rose from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from there he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church, the communion of the saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting."

Time to wake up , for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Shalom with love
Time for you to wake up to the fact that the holy catholic church DOES NOT mean the heretical institution known as the Roman Catholic Church. It denotes the universal church built on the Rock of our salvation.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#73
Free will is ones ability to make a free choice... Without free will no one can make a choice..
This is the only definition I have found on this thread so far.

Do kayla and others agree with it?
 
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pckts

Guest
#74
Originally Posted by Adstar

Free will is ones ability to make a free choice... Without free will no one can make a choice..




Sometimes because of free will, I can't make a choice.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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#75
Free will is ones ability to make a free choice... Without free will no one can make a choice..
What exactly leads you to make a choice and to choose one possibility of many others?
 

vic1980

Senior Member
Apr 25, 2013
1,653
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#76
Time for you to wake up to the fact that the holy catholic church DOES NOT mean the heretical institution known as the Roman Catholic Church. It denotes the universal church built on the Rock of our salvation.
[video=youtube_share;-lEYdmJEAFM]http://youtu.be/-lEYdmJEAFM[/video]


Ravi Zacharias Is Roman Catholicism a cult?


Perhaps you many understand clearly now magenta


It is sufficiently clear to me that Ravi is an ecumenist, after the mold of Billy Graham, as he dare not speak the plain truth when it comes to the roman catholic church.Even when he says people stay in a group (for e.g. the roman catholics) to change it from within, which may be so, he is afraid to point out the fact that such an arrangement is unbiblical.

The bible clearly says that after the second admonition, the heretic is to be rejected. The bible further reveals in the Book of Revelation that God Himself personally wants all His people to come out of the spiritual harlot which is the roman catholic church. In addition the bible clearly teaches that the believer has no part with an infidel ( and as such also a heretic) and is to be separated from them.Please don't tell me that Ravi, being a well known international apologist for the gospel, may not know these verses.

If it is so, he has no business being a preacher and apologist for the gospel as he is misleading others to think they can do whatever they like (such as staying in the roman catholic church to change it from within) when the bible teaches otherwise.And if he knows these verses and this very specific teaching of the bible to the believer to have no part with the infidel and the heretic, and he doesn't want to share this teaching, then he has absolutely no business being a preacher of God's word

There is no political correctness in the word of God, only divine truth, and if Ravi thinks he has to be politically correct like Billy Graham, then he is in the wrong business. Jesus and His Apostles spoke God's truth as it is and so did the Old Testament prophets of God at risk of losing their own lives.

If a supposed preacher of God's word (such as Ravi Zacharias, Billy Graham, Franklin Graham and others) is afraid to tell the heretics (e.g. the roman catholics) that they are heretics traveling on the broad road to eternal damnation, how can they be saved? Their blood is surely on the hands of such false preachers.

Shalom
 
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vic1980

Senior Member
Apr 25, 2013
1,653
199
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#77
Revelation 18:4-5 says....." And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, MY PEOPLE (God is speaking here), that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. "

Shalom
 
Jun 1, 2016
5,032
121
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#78
First 3 doctrines of Calvinism is against free will before saving and the last 2 is against free will after saving.

Basically puppet theology.
deuteronomy 30:19 "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you LIFE AND DEATH, BLESSING AND CURSING: therefore CHOOSE LIFE, that both thou and thy seed may LIVE"

Apparently God must be misleading His people. if the puppetmaster theory WERE true, God would be unjust in everything He did whether blesing, or cursing. because no ones at fault but him. its just another false idea springing from the doctrines that have sold to the masses. Guess thats why were warned so many times about following the wrong thinking such as no ability to choose <<the devil is having a field day with all the ideas so far from truth, makes His work easy.

If a person thinks they dont have the ability to choose, they will never make the right choice.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,784
4,451
113
#79
deuteronomy 30:19 "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you LIFE AND DEATH, BLESSING AND CURSING: therefore CHOOSE LIFE, that both thou and thy seed may LIVE"

Apparently God must be misleading His people. if the puppetmaster theory WERE true, God would be unjust in everything He did whether blesing, or cursing. because no ones at fault but him. its just another false idea springing from the doctrines that have sold to the masses. Guess thats why were warned so many times about following the wrong thinking such as no ability to choose <<the devil is having a field day with all the ideas so far from truth, makes His work easy.

If a person thinks they dont have the ability to choose, they will never make the right choice.
Very true but the good news is i still have a voice and life in my bones. I will continue to preach truth to extinguish this evil.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#80
deuteronomy 30:19 "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you LIFE AND DEATH, BLESSING AND CURSING: therefore CHOOSE LIFE, that both thou and thy seed may LIVE"

Apparently God must be misleading His people. if the puppetmaster theory WERE true, God would be unjust in everything He did whether blesing, or cursing. because no ones at fault but him. its just another false idea springing from the doctrines that have sold to the masses. Guess thats why were warned so many times about following the wrong thinking such as no ability to choose <<the devil is having a field day with all the ideas so far from truth, makes His work easy.

If a person thinks they dont have the ability to choose, they will never make the right choice.
You have no idea what the reformed belief is.
 
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