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Thread: Lets Talk Free Choice

  1. #1
    Senior Member kaylagrl's Avatar
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    Default Lets Talk Free Choice

    I started a thread on Calvinism asking for their POV. I learned things about Calvinism I had not known before.One of the main struggles seems to be the issue of free choice,do we have choice or do we not? Each side has its ideas and it can be an interesting discussion if it doesnt turn into a free for all where no one gets heard. So here we go. Again I'll be up front,I believe in free will. If you do not please be respectful in your answers.


    “God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong, but I can't. If a thing is free to be good it's also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata -of creatures that worked like machines- would hardly be worth creating. The happiness which God designs for His higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to Him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with which the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk and water. And for that they've got to be free.
    Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently, He thought it worth the risk. (...) If God thinks this state of war in the universe a price worth paying for free will -that is, for making a real world in which creatures can do real good or harm and something of real importance can happen, instead of a toy world which only moves when He pulls the strings- then we may take it it is worth paying.”

    C.S. Lewis, The Case for Christianity

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    Senior Member Desertsrose's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    From the beginning God gave Adam and Eve a free will to choose to eat from the Tree of Life and live or to choose from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. They CHOSE to eat from the wrong tree.
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    Ezekiel 18:23 Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

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    Senior Member kaylagrl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

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    Senior Member kaylagrl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

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    Senior Member trofimus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    So, kaylagirl, as a proponent of free will or free choice, you can start by properly defining what does this term mean
    Let the brotherly love stay * Láska bratrská ať zůstává

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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by trofimus View Post
    So, kaylagirl, as a proponent of free will or free choice, you can start by properly defining what does this term mean
    Good question since I have no problems with free choice. Big problems with free will.
    Lynn

    Still woman, but no lady.

    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

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    Senior Member Desertsrose's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by kaylagrl View Post
    BOTH EXCELLENT VIDS. THANKS FOR SHARING THEM! I'M CAPS ONLY BECAUSE FOR SOME REASON THE ABILITY TO CHANGE MY FONTS ISN'T AVAILABLE. NOT SURE WHY.
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    Ezekiel 18:23 Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

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    Senior Member kaylagrl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by trofimus View Post
    So, kaylagirl, as a proponent of free will or free choice, you can start by properly defining what does this term mean

    ​I'll get there...

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    Senior Member kaylagrl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Depleted View Post
    Good question since I have no problems with free choice. Big problems with free will.

    ​I trust you and Trof. watched the videos?

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    Senior Member preacher4truth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Wonder why Jesus said "No one can come to me unless it has been granted by the Father" instead of "No one may come to Me unless it has been granted by the Father?"

    Because no one has the ability, that's why. "No one can" = incapable. Most of us grew up and found out that there is a difference between "can" and "may."

    Scripture attests time and again we don't have the ability, and it isn't via choice. And, of course that would mean God isn't fair, so, gotta find a proof text to neutralize all of that.
    People are offended that God is God.

    Oh, my brethren! bold-hearted men are always called mean-spirited by cowards. - Charles Spurgeon

    I threw out the writings of Moses because he killed that Egyptian guy.

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    Senior Member Magenta's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    I prefer the term self will, simply because free will gets bogged down in so many issues that have nothing at all to do with God or salvation (what color socks should I wear today??? Plus, we cannot simply "choose" to grow a third arm) and the fact also, that self will needs to be brought into/under the jurisdiction of God's will. He is not forcing us to make certain choices even as or if He enables us to make those choices. That God makes things possible does not mean He is forcing things to happen.

    God's will can be clearly seen in three different modes: sovereign, moral, and permissive. Some people will say that everything we do is the will of God, but that goes against everything in Scripture that proclaims God to be good and just. God does not will any person to commit any of the evil they may perpetuate upon another.

    Jesus exhorted us to repent and believe. It is an invitation to make proper choices. Those who repent and believe, do choose God and have chosen life, and those who refuse to repent and believe reject God, and will pass into the second death.

    God draws us to Him as we seek meaning and purpose in life (otherwise known as Truth) and reveals Himself and His will to us and we learn to love His ways; coming to know through experience that our ways are sinful and lead to suffering, sorrow, pain, and death.

    One way I characterized the whole thing recently was as a chess game

    It may be helpful for you to think of it in terms of a chess game, for there are only so many possible moves at the beginning of any game, and each move in turn eliminates a number of choices. At any given moment, God is completely aware of the moves that are open to you, and as you make another choice, again, He is aware of the moves that remain available to you. He sees every possible end to the game at every single move, from the beginning to the end. That He sees the end from every point does not mean He is dictating your moves or the choices you make.


    Embrace the Grace and Rejoice in His Everlasting Mercy and Love

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    Senior Member FreeNChrist's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Freedom to choose is what has made evil possible. But freedom to choose is also the only thing that makes love possible, or goodness or joy worth having.

    “How foolish can you be? After starting your new lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?”
    Gal 3:3



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    Senior Member kaylagrl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by preacher4truth View Post
    Wonder why Jesus said "No one can come to me unless it has been granted by the Father" instead of "No one may come to Me unless it has been granted by the Father?"

    Because no one has the ability, that's why. "No one can" = incapable. Most of us grew up and found out that there is a difference between "can" and "may."

    Scripture attests time and again we don't have the ability, and it isn't via choice. And, of course that would mean God isn't fair, so, gotta find a proof text to neutralize all of that.


    John 5


    "40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."

    Why would He some come if we had no choice?

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    Senior Member kaylagrl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Magenta View Post
    I prefer the term self will, simply because free will gets bogged down in so many issues that have nothing at all to do with God or salvation (what color socks should I wear today??? Plus, we cannot simply "choose" to grow a third arm) and the fact also, that self will needs to be brought into/under the jurisdiction of God's will. He is not forcing us to make certain choices even as or if He enables us to make those choices. That God makes things possible does not mean He is forcing things to happen.

    God's will can be clearly seen in three different modes: sovereign, moral, and permissive. Some people will say that everything we do is the will of God, but that goes against everything in Scripture that proclaims God to be good and just. God does not will any person to commit any of the evil they may perpetuate upon another.

    Jesus exhorted us to repent and believe. It is an invitation to make proper choices. Those who repent and believe, do choose God and have chosen life, and those who refuse to repent and believe reject God, and will pass into the second death.

    God draws us to Him as we seek meaning and purpose in life (otherwise known as Truth) and reveals Himself and His will to us and we learn to love His ways; coming to know through experience that our ways are sinful and lead to suffering, sorrow, pain, and death.

    One way I characterized the whole thing recently was as a chess game

    It may be helpful for you to think of it in terms of a chess game, for there are only so many possible moves at the beginning of any game, and each move in turn eliminates a number of choices. At any given moment, God is completely aware of the moves that are open to you, and as you make another choice, again, He is aware of the moves that remain available to you. He sees every possible end to the game at every single move, from the beginning to the end. That He sees the end from every point does not mean He is dictating your moves or the choices you make.

    Yes,I think you are right,self will is a better word.I do not believe God has made us machines. As Ravi said in the video how can you have love if you have not choice? Thanks for sharing,very well spoken sister.

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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    My understanding is, the problems that free will seem to have, come from predestination and the role that God plays.

    Basically, how can a thing be free, if God knows what it will do in advance, and if God is in ultimate authority and power over it?

    This is how; when you know something well enough, and you know everything effecting it, you can predict what it will do without influencing it. We do not know ourselves that well and we can't predict ourselves, so sometimes we think that the true self is random. But there is a spirit in us that God knows very well, well enough to predestine it before our life started. So when we say free will we do not mean a will that is free of everything including itself; but it is distinct from God (because God made it distinct), it is free to be itself and because of that, it is something definite, it can be predicted.

    Also, how does God retain power and authority over us while giving us freedom? It is because of how power works, which God also knows completely. If we abuse our power, we will lose it, and the power will go back to God. But if we use our power well, it is because we are using our power the way God uses it -- and he gave us the power, so in effect, either we are using it cooperatively with him, or we lose it and it goes back to him; in either case it is still essentially his, because we are either his, or we are powerless.

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    Senior Member trofimus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by kaylagrl View Post
    ​I trust you and Trof. watched the videos?
    Me, only the first one.

    The man with golden watches avoided the definition of the free will, if I listened properly and his argument was based on "to love we need not to be robots", which is nothing new.

    A dog can love to death and still we agree that the will of a dog is not free in any philosophical sense.
    Last edited by trofimus; May 16th, 2017 at 01:29 PM.
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    Let the brotherly love stay * Láska bratrská ať zůstává

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    Senior Member Marano's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    I'd say C.S Lewis is not someone christians should be quoting about anything, if anyone does research on him they find out what his life was really about, as well as his books. Paganism, witchcraft and the like.
    Stephen63 likes this.

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    Senior Member trofimus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Marano View Post
    I'd say C.S Lewis is not someone christians should be quoting about anything, if anyone does research on him they find out what his life was really about, as well as his books. Paganism, witchcraft and the like.
    Whaaaaaaaaat?
    Angela53510 likes this.
    Let the brotherly love stay * Láska bratrská ať zůstává

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    Senior Member Marano's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by trofimus View Post
    Whaaaaaaaaat?
    Yeah truly, if you have followed C.S Lewis, everything you believe about him has been a lie and deception.

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    Senior Member trofimus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Marano View Post
    Yeah truly, if you have followed C.S Lewis, everything you believe about him has been a lie and deception.
    Whaaaaaaaaaaaat?
    Let the brotherly love stay * Láska bratrská ať zůstává

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