Death penalty

[blue_ladybug]

Getting baptized doesn't save you. Grace through faith is what saves you..baptism has nada to do with it..

Yep, they lock them up for a long time. Then the prison guards don't let them know when they are scheduled to be killed so they are always apprehensive when the guards walk past their cell. They spend years in solitude and then when they convert to Christianity, they sit them in a chair and kill them (before being baptized?).

Only God knows what is in a person's heart, though He can give us wisdom to discern it. If we're to kill murderers I just think the advocates for the death penalty should stop beating around the bush and throw a bunch of other wicked things on the kill list. Even women who wear yoga pants. Millions of men are lusting after them as they strut around knowing full well men are lusting after them. Adultery/lust causes death. Can we start killing them too? "Hey now, that's a little harsh, they are just women wearing pants..." And why must it be painless? Why can't we go back to stoning?

 

[Desertsrose]

It would be difficult, if not impossible, for some of us to forgive someone who murdered our child or loved one..

Hi Blue,

That's the blessing of the new birth. Our old life is passed and we are a new creation in Christ.

I'm not saying it will be easy, but it's not impossible to forgive someone who killed one of our loved ones.

Corrie ten Boom who was a victim of Hitler's tortuous camps. She was imprisoned, tortured and had family members were either killed or they died in the camps. She was able to forgive with the love of God in her.

At one of her conferences that she spoke at, the very guard at Ravensbrook that beat her sister came up to her. He asked if she could forgive him and reached out his hand to her. All the anger and hate that could be mustered welled up within her.

There was no way she could do this. But almost immediately she prayed and asked the Lord to help her and she said she felt like electricity went through her arm as she reached her own hand to his.

Thats the beauty of Christ in us!

 

[Desertsrose]

So God wants Americans to kill murderers, but British people to lock them up?

God's judicial system is just. Man's is not. It will either side with the victim or side with the perpetrator. In the end of all things each man will receive his due. And it will be just.

Each country sets up their own judicial system. God doesn't say it's perfect. But He does tell us to submit to it. We as Christians are not of this world. We aren't to set up the laws, but uphold them and submit to the governing authorities.

Romans 13:1-7
Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.

For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.

Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

 

[Desertsrose]

Then who do you think made my government stop the death penalty? If you start judging people to death, you either take the whole package, or you're picking and choosing following the doctrine of men.

Hi Zen,

You weren't even alive back when England had the death penalty. They abolished it in 1965. But let's say that you were alive back then. Your view might be different on this forum today because many times we believe what's right because our government says so.

In America many will agree it's okay because our government says so. It's the nature of humans to do so.

It's the same with divorce. Years ago it was illegal and there were very few divorces. But then the laws changed. And then people changed. Way back when, Christians believed it was wrong to divorce except for fornication. Today in the church they are keeping up with the world's statistics.

But as believers we know what will happen to those who commit heinous crimes.......unless they repent and are saved.

But for now before that day comes, God has called us to love our enemy, but that doesn't mean the laws of the land should not have a death penalty. That's up to the governing authorities of the land and the people collectively who vote laws into practice.

 

[OneFaith]

What I meant by their own personal perpuse was letting certain people go and convicting those they do not like.

Also, some may see helping one to commit suicide if the person is suffering as mercy not murder. Me personally, I do not have a stand on this one. But I am leaning on the mercy part. Because wouldn't it seem like torture to make someone suffer if you know they are dieing anyway and they are begging you to help them end their suffering?

That's what Dr. Jack Kavorcian did- helped his patient in pain to commit suicide. He is now in jail for murder. I feel bad they are going through such pain, but it is not a license to murder yourself or another person. God is in control of all things- they should pray not sin. Maybe the person is in an unsafe spiritual state, and God sent them pain as a warning. Because the pain of hell will never end. So this may be their last chance to change and get right with God.

I'm not saying that's what it is, but God created the body and the ability to feel pain, so He has His reasons- even if we don't know what they are. But murder is taking human life without His permission. Good intentions are not a license to sin! Remember the man who tried to help when the arc of the covenant was falling? He was told only a Levite could touch it. He dropped dead instantly. Good intentions or not, we must obey God!

 

[oldethennew]

PRO. 11:19.
As righteousness tendeth to life: so he that pursueth evil pursueth it to his own death.

14:2.
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

18:21.
Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.

21:6.
The getting of treasures by a lying tongue is a vanity tossed to and fro of them that seek death.

ECC.7:1.
A good name is better than precious ointment; and the day of death than the day of one's birth.

MATT. 10:21.
And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child:
and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

15:4.
For God commanded, saying, Honour your father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother,
let him die the death.

JAMES 1:15.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

REV. 20:6.
Blessed and Holy is he that hath part in the First Resurrection: on such the second death hath no power,
but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

21:8.
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers,
and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone:
which is the second death.

 

[Zen]

God's judicial system is just. Man's is not. It will either side with the victim or side with the perpetrator. In the end of all things each man will receive his due. And it will be just.

Each country sets up their own judicial system. God doesn't say it's perfect. But He does tell us to submit to it. We as Christians are not of this world. We aren't to set up the laws, but uphold them and submit to the governing authorities.

Romans 13:1-7
Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.

For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.

Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

So God told the Americans to kill the British in a rebellion against authority, so that they don't have to pay taxes, and then God made the Americans implement the death penalty for murderers, but to the British he said for us to stop killing murderers. And did He say to Americans "kill anyone in the government who tries to take your guns away because I want you to be armed" but to the British did He say "Except you people, I don't want you to be allowed to carry weapons. Anything sharper than a spoon is a no no"?

Why are America and Britain so different? We both have laws against murder.

You're saying that man's laws are just because they were given by God. It's not true, because there are outrageous sentences handed out by men who do not fear God.

Why are you allowed to carry a gun but I'm not? We are both Christians.

Or could it be that mankind has silly laws and we are living in spiritual Babylon and God is not a respector of persons?

 

[Desertsrose]

So God told the Americans to kill the British in a rebellion against authority, so that they don't have to pay taxes, and then God made the Americans implement the death penalty for murderers, but to the British he said for us to stop killing murderers. And did He say to Americans "kill anyone in the government who tries to take your guns away because I want you to be armed" but to the British did He say "Except you people, I don't want you to be allowed to carry weapons. Anything sharper than a spoon is a no no"?

Why are America and Britain so different? We both have laws against murder.

You're saying that man's laws are just because they were given by God. It's not true, because there are outrageous sentences handed out by men who do not fear God.

Why are you allowed to carry a gun but I'm not? We are both Christians.

Or could it be that mankind has silly laws and we are living in spiritual Babylon and God is not a respector of persons?

Zen you may want to read my post again. I said man's laws are not just.

But the bible tells us to submit to our governing authorities. God established our governing authorities. How that all works out with God I have no idea. He doesn't always fill in the details. All I know is that God says He uses them as an avenger for those who do evil. So they are His servants. Comparing the nations isn't our call. Rome had Nero who used Christians as candles to light up his outdoor BBQ's. He fed them to lions. He blamed the fire on the Christians and were persecuted. And yet, Paul still said to submit to the governing authorities when Nero led Rome. So yes, we are not of this world.

As far as the Revolutionary war goes, I believe that the British that opposed England were wrong. We should have paid the tax.

 

[royalscot]

Hello, dear brethren!

Recently, in a conversation, death penalty was debated (whether it should exist or not). The only reason in debate was whether a murderer should be put to death or not.

We have, in the Old Testament, that murder, (Genesis 9:6; Exodus 21:12), kidnapping (Exodus 21:16), bestiality (Exodus 22:19), adultery (Leviticus 20:10), homosexuality (Leviticus 20:13), being a false prophet (Deuteronomy 13:5), prostitution and rape (Deuteronomy 22:24), etc, were reasons to apply death penalty.

God also showed mercy, often.

Roman 13, also points to death penalty, although does not specifies the crimes that justify it.


My question is this: wasn´t the Mosaic Law legislation to the nation of Israel only? Or is all the above justification for our authorities to apply death penalty? If so, the only reason for death penalty by the authorities, nowadays, would be murder, right?


Blessings!

when did he appoint you judge of the living and the dead,

did you miss, what his chosen few were preaching and teaching.
42 And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead.43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."

the problem with un forgiveness , who is going to forgive your mistakes. when or if ,you refuse to forgive others. (food for thought)

 

[royalscot]

I have no problem with the death penalty for murderers and those who abuse and rape little children......

you break one law, you break them all. yet cannot see,or have, no understanding to why god, sent his only son, in the fist place, must be fun, going round in circles. knowing, you all, are walking your, own green mile, asking who saved you from this. yet say he never saved them, so kill them sooner. lol

 

[WingsOfFidelity]

According to my understanding, yes. Do you know any other way?

Let's start another thread on this. I don't want to move this thread in a different direction.

 

[Zmouth]

I have no problem with the death penalty for murderers and those who abuse and rape little children......

For first offense?

you break one law, you break them all. yet cannot see,or have, no understanding to why god, sent his only son, in the fist place, must be fun, going round in circles. knowing, you all, are walking your, own green mile, asking who saved you from this. yet say he never saved them, so kill them sooner. lol

Maybe according to Paul's gospel....

 

[Zmouth]

Because the pain of hell will never end.

Really?

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:12-14

Once consumed they cease to exist, poof, gone, no more! Like Enoch.

And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense. Num 16:35

 

[royalscot]

For first offense?

Originally Posted by royalscot

you break one law, you break them all. yet cannot see,or have, no understanding to why god, sent his only son, in the fist place, must be fun, going round in circles. knowing, you all, are walking your, own green mile, asking who saved you from this. yet say he never saved them, so kill them sooner. lol

Maybe according to Paul's gospel....

then why would you be on, a christian chat forum, if you do not have a clue to what a christian is.

unmerited faviour , has more that one lesson,to teach,

for example,
is the executioner guilty of murder. etc

for example
if your reject , paul s gospel ,you would need a temple of stone , to take an animal to gain forgiveness. (if your jewish, )oral repentance was given to a jew converting to christian ways and teachings. etc

for example
if your reject there is a god, then why should the executioner, go to hell, for the pay an employer pays him. and who would god send to warn him about that fact. etc

 

[royalscot]

strange thing, having an account of events, they must follow time,

why did the jewish pay, judas 30 peaces of silver.


;4 Simon the Cananaean, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.
Jesus Sends Out the Twelve Apostles
5 These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them, "Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans,6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of IsraelMatthew 10: The Twelve Apostles

paul said he was an apostile to the gentiles. etc

 

[Zmouth]

Originally Posted by Zmouth

For first offense?

Originally Posted by royalscot

you break one law, you break them all. yet cannot see,or have, no understanding to why god, sent his only son, in the fist place, must be fun, going round in circles. knowing, you all, are walking your, own green mile, asking who saved you from this. yet say he never saved them, so kill them sooner. lol

Maybe according to Paul's gospel.... then why would you be on, a christian chat forum, if you do not have a clue to what a christian is.

unmerited faviour , has more that one lesson,to teach,

for example,
is the executioner guilty of murder. etc

for example
if your reject , paul s gospel ,you would need a temple of stone , to take an animal to gain forgiveness. (if your jewish, )oral repentance was given to a jew converting to christian ways and teachings. etc

for example
if your reject there is a god, then why should the executioner, go to hell, for the pay an employer pays him. and who would god send to warn him about that fact. etc

Where do you get that if one transgression one law then they transgress all the laws.

Since we are no longer under the covenant given to the nation of Israel, then how can we transgress its laws.

for example,
is the executioner guilty of murder. etc

You do understand the principle of justice?

6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.
7 The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you.
Dueteronomy 17

You do understand the principle of equity?

And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. Deut 19:21

 

[miknik5]

It would be difficult, if not impossible, for some of us to forgive someone who murdered our child or loved one..

Yes it would be
but that is what we are called to din

 

[miknik5]

Those who live by the sword shall die by the sword

 

[Socreta93]

“The death penalty is not about whether people deserve to die for the crimes they commit. The real question of capital punishment in this country is, Do we deserve to kill?”
― Bryan Stevenson