What actually is the “Law of sin and death?”

[gotime]

Those of you who understand can see the folly of proof texting in some of the posts above.

 

[Grace777x70]

I won't deny that the law reveals our sin and guilt. And that which is in our flesh and carnal minds is a killer. If we didn't have the info, we would not have any incentive to reach out to the One who can save. What I believe is that the "law of sin and death" doesn't reveal the necessity to be saved because we don't see why we should. Where there is no law there isn't any sin. Romans 4:15

The law of sin and death was brought into this world by Adam's transgression from eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The Law of Moses is a manifestation of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The Lord said that all the trees He created were good - including the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

We were never meant to eat from that tree. Only God can eat from that tree. We are to eat from the tree of life which is Christ Himself now.

You are right - the Law is NOT for the righteous and we are not under the law anymore. We are the righteous in Christ now which is why we have nothing to do with the law other than to see the purpose of it and that Jesus has fulfilled the whole law.

The law of Moses is a goner for the Christian.

Paul who knew the law better then anyone had this to say about the purpose of the law.


The purpose of the law was :

1) To reveal our sinful state - Rom 3:20

2) To inflame sin - Rom 7:8

3) To minister death in us - Rom 7:10-11

4) To lead us to Christ - Gal 3:24

The law is good, holy and spiritual but we are in the flesh. Jesus fulfilled all the law!

When we read the law we should be seeing Jesus in it. Jesus did not save us so that we could go back to the law.

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is how we live now,

the law of liberty in Christ Jesus

the law of love

the law of faith ( the Law is NOT of faith - the just shall live by faith ).

The law of Christ - Himself is how we live now.

But the purpose of the law was not for righteousness or salvation at all, it was to manifest sin in our lives, so that the purpose of grace which is in Jesus is to manifest salvation. Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it.

Jesus said that all of the law and the prophets "speak of Him" He is the real substance - not the shadow of the Law itself.

Christians are dead to the Law, been released from the Law and are NOT under the Law. It can't get any plainer than that.

People are free to do whatever they want in relation to the Law - it does not make one righteous nor is it for salvation.

If someone wants to observe a particular day such as the Sabbath , festivals or eat or not eat some kinds of foods..etc - then they are free to do so.

These have no bearing on one's salvation or righteousness as all that is based on the finished work of Christ.

It's where people are saying "You must observe these things in the Law including the Sabbath day as outlined in the Old Testament or you are sinning and you are not obeying God"

- that's where the twisting comes in and it is a perversion of the gospel of the grace of Christ.

This is an anti-Christ belief system religion which has the "appearance" of good but it is really denying the Lord Jesus Christ's finished work. Hebrews 4:10

 

[unobtrusive]

The law of sin and death was brought into this world by Adam's transgression from eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The Law of Moses is a manifestation of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The Lord said that all the trees He created were good - including the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

We were never meant to eat from that tree. Only God can eat from that tree. We are to eat from the tree of life which is Christ Himself now.

You are right - the Law is NOT for the righteous and we are not under the law anymore. We are the righteous in Christ now which is why we have nothing to do with the law other than to see the purpose of it and that Jesus has fulfilled the whole law.

The law of Moses is a goner for the Christian.

Paul who knew the law better then anyone had this to say about the purpose of the law.


The purpose of the law was :

1) To reveal our sinful state - Rom 3:20

2) To inflame sin - Rom 7:8

3) To minister death in us - Rom 7:10-11

4) To lead us to Christ - Gal 3:24

The law is good, holy and spiritual but we are in the flesh. Jesus fulfilled all the law!

When we read the law we should be seeing Jesus in it. Jesus did not save us so that we could go back to the law.

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is how we live now,

the law of liberty in Christ Jesus

the law of love

the law of faith ( the Law is NOT of faith - the just shall live by faith ).

The law of Christ - Himself is how we live now.

But the purpose of the law was not for righteousness or salvation at all, it was to manifest sin in our lives, so that the purpose of grace which is in Jesus is to manifest salvation. Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it.

Jesus said that all of the law and the prophets "speak of Him" He is the real substance - not the shadow of the Law itself.

Christians are dead to the Law, been released from the Law and are NOT under the Law. It can't get any plainer than that.

People are free to do whatever they want in relation to the Law - it does not make one righteous nor is it for salvation.

If someone wants to observe a particular day such as the Sabbath , festivals or eat or not eat some kinds of foods..etc - then they are free to do so.

These have no bearing on one's salvation or righteousness as all that is based on the finished work of Christ.

It's where people are saying "You must observe these things in the Law including the Sabbath day as outlined in the Old Testament or you are sinning and you are not obeying God"

- that's where the twisting comes in and it is a perversion of the gospel of the grace of Christ.

This is an anti-Christ belief system religion which has the "appearance" of good but it is really denying the Lord Jesus Christ's finished work. Hebrews 4:10

With all that (not to refute most of what you wrote, but some), why did Paul worship God by continuing to believe all things written in the law, and why did Jesus tell the Pharisees that if they didn't believe what Moses wrote they would never understand what He was saying to them? Are we arbitrarily exempt from the law, or are we as believers not "under" it any longer so that isn't condemning?

Paul said I worship "the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:" (Acts 24:14)
"But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?" (John 5:47)

Is it that we have been changed, or is it that the Word of God has changed because of Jesus Christ? It cannot be both, for if both God and us have changed, then the foundation would be very unstable.

 

[Grace777x70]

With all that (not to refute most of what you wrote, but some), why did Paul worship God by continuing to believe all things written in the law, and why did Jesus tell the Pharisees that if they didn't believe what Moses wrote they would never understand what He was saying to them? Are we arbitrarily exempt from the law, or are we as believers not "under" it any longer so that isn't condemning?

Paul said I worship "the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:" (Acts 24:14)
"But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?" (John 5:47)

Is it that we have been changed, or is it that the Word of God has changed because of Jesus Christ? It cannot be both, for if both God and us have changed, then the foundation would be very unstable.

That is the whole essence of law and grace. The law of Christ Himself living in and through us does keep the whole intent of the law - just not in "the way" of the Old Covenant.

Jesus said that all the law and the prophets speak of Christ Himself

- which is why Paul was able to say - " believing all things that are written in the law and the prophets."

Paul believed in Christ that is revealed in the law and the prophets and that He is the fulfillment of all these things and thus Paul, believed what was written about Christ in the law and prophets.

Today's Law-keepers mis-apply this to mean that Paul kept the law of Moses in it's original state - which is in a carnal ( of the flesh way ) keeping of it.

This of course is totally false because Paul said to the Galatians that if they get circumcised as the law states they should - then Christ will become of no effect to them and they have fallen from grace. Gal. 5:2-4

( As a good Jew - I'm sure Paul kept some of his old ways of living too but he certainly didn't put gentile Christians under his Jewish cultural traditions and demand that they follow it or they are sinning and dis-obeying God as some Sabbath keepers try to put on other Christians )

 

[unobtrusive]

That is the whole essence of law and grace. The law of Christ Himself living in and through us does keep the whole intent of the law - just not in "the way" of the Old Covenant.

Jesus said that all the law and the prophets speak of Christ Himself

- which is why Paul was able to say - " believing all things that are written in the law and the prophets."

Paul believed in Christ that is revealed in the law and the prophets and that He is the fulfillment of all these things and thus Paul, believed what was written about Christ in the law and prophets.

Today's Law-keepers mis-apply this to mean that Paul kept the law of Moses in it's original state - which is in a carnal ( of the flesh way ) keeping of it.

This of course is totally false because Paul said to the Galatians that if they get circumcised as the law states they should - then Christ will become of no effect to them and they have fallen from grace. Gal. 5:2-4

( As a good Jew - I'm sure Paul kept some of his old ways of living too but he certainly didn't put gentile Christians under his Jewish cultural traditions and demand that they follow it or they are sinning and dis-obeying God as some Sabbath keepers try to put on other Christians )

Well spoken IMO. Thanks!!!
Under the New Covenant, we see the foreshadowing of the law as a type of parable, relating the physical with the spiritual. This is what I believe that Paul was referring to when he said that the carnal mind cannot be subject to the law. The law hasn't been replaced per se, but by being in the spirit we view the physical with a different perspective.

"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." (Romans 8:7)

If we feel we must reject the law of God because we cannot see the spiritual relevance therein, we become "lawless." Then we are trapped "under the law," and once again needing it because the Word of God says that the law is for the lawless.

"Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust." (John 5:45)

The Pharisees (Judaizers by today's nomenclature) were actually lawless by only seeing the physical aspects thereof, and then kept adding to it just like the Congress keeps adding amendments to the Constitution.

I relate getting out from "under the law" as "Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up," out from underneath. (James 4:10)

 

[seed_time_harvest]

The law of the Spirit of life.—A phrase defining more fully the mode in which the union with Christ becomes operative in the believer. It begins by imparting to him the Spirit of Christ; this Spirit creates within him a law; and the result of that law is life—that perfect spiritual vitality which includes within itself the pledge of immortality.

From the law of sin and death.—The direct contrast to the foregoing. Not here the law of Moses, but the power of sin, the corrupt element in our nature, acting upon the soul, and itself erecting a kind of law, saying, “Thou shalt,” where the law of God says “Thou shalt not;” and “Thou shalt not,” where the law of God says “Thou shalt.” The effect of this reign of sin is death—spiritual death—bearing in itself the pledge of eternal death.

Transgression came before the law of God, not the other way around.

"Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions," (Galatinas 3:19a)

"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." (Romans 5:14)

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." (1 John 3:4)

"sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." (James 1:15b)

I don't know how scripture could make it any more clear.

We have to distinguish two meanings of law. In the stricter sense, it signifies the authoritative expressions of the will of a ruler proposed for the obedience of man; in the wider, almost figurative sense, it means nothing more than the generalised expression of constant similar facts. For instance, objects attract one another in certain circumstances with a force which in the same circumstances is always the same. When that fact is stated generally, we get the law of gravitation. Thus the word comes to mean little more than a regular process. In this context the word is used in a sense much nearer the latter than the former of these two. ‘The law of sin and of death’ cannot mean a series of commandments; it certainly does not mean the Mosaic law. It must either be entirely figurative, taking sin and death as two great tyrants who domineer over men; or it must mean the continuous action of these powers, the process by which they work. These two come substantially to the same idea. The law of sin and of death describes a certain constancy of operation, uniform and fixed, under the dominion of which men are struggling. But there is another constancy of operation, uniform and fixed too, a mighty antagonistic power, which frees from the dominion of the former: it is ‘the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.’

When you say the law of sin and death Is a separate law from the law of GOD,just for the sake of understanding let's use the word "principle"as Grace777x70 explained.

I'll use It In a sentence and then maybe you will understand why I said,the law of sin and death became a law to man because man was not able to keep GOD's law.

"Man was not able to keep the law of GOD because of the weakness of his flesh bringing a "principle"of sin and death .

 

[unobtrusive]

When you say the law of sin and death Is a separate law from the law of GOD,just for the sake of understanding let's use the word "principle"as Grace777x70 explained.

I'll use It In a sentence and then maybe you will understand why I said,the law of sin and death became a law to man because man was not able to keep GOD's law.

"Man was not able to keep the law of GOD because of the weakness of his flesh bringing a "principle"of sin and death .

I would agree in principle (smile). Let's look at chronology so a wider panoramic can be incorporated into the Mosaic (pun not intended but you know what I mean).

I'll explain. I do believe, as you presented that the principle has always been there since the fall in Eden (the knowledge of good and evil). Obviously, by partaking of the knowledge was sin because it was against God's command, and it caused a sure death. So the fall cannot be equated with the law of Moses because that law was given after this fact.

With that said, the principle was always there, but it was revealed by the law given to Israel at Sinai or Horeb, which ever one prefers. This is why I separate the law of Moses and the law of sin and death. Remember the law entered because of transgression, the law doesn't cause us to transgress that leads to sin and death. Chronology or dispensation whatever semantic describes the truth.

The "law of sin and death" is produced in principle by man's desire only, not by the word of God. God's Word saves us from sin and death. We all battle between these two factions within ourselves when the principle is revealed just like Paul when he talked about himself in Romans 7, one in our flesh and the other in our minds.

Hope this explanation of mine will help us all come closer together with one mind, speaking the same things. Little by little, line by line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

I would agree in principle (smile). Let's look at chronology so a wider panoramic can be incorporated into the Mosaic (pun not intended but you know what I mean).

I'll explain. I do believe, as you presented that the principle has always been there since the fall in Eden (the knowledge of good and evil). Obviously, by partaking of the knowledge was sin because it was against God's command, and it caused a sure death. So the fall cannot be equated with the law of Moses because that law was given after this fact.

With that said, the principle was always there, but it was revealed by the law given to Israel at Sinai or Horeb, which ever one prefers. This is why I separate the law of Moses and the law of sin and death. Remember the law entered because of transgression, the law doesn't cause us to transgress that leads to sin and death. Chronology or dispensation whatever semantic describes the truth.

The "law of sin and death" is produced in principle by man's desire only, not by the word of God. God's Word saves us from sin and death. We all battle between these two factions within ourselves when the principle is revealed just like Paul when he talked about himself in Romans 7, one in our flesh and the other in our minds.

Hope this explanation of mine will help us all come closer together with one mind, speaking the same things. Little by little, line by line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little.

I will agree that the principle was always there IF man were to sin,and that was because man was carnal.So then that Is how the law of sin and death exist.The principle of sin and death for man would never have existed If man had not sinned and GOD's law would not have had to be given ,but since man did sin and sin Is not Imputed where there Is no law,the law was given and we know that men were going to come up short of the glory of GOD because of the weakness of his flesh.He could not be righteous of his own strength perfectly ,the principle of sin and death would be expected every time he tried to be perfect of his own strength.He needed a savior.

 

[unobtrusive]

I will agree that the principle was always there IF man were to sin,and that was because man was carnal.So then that Is how the law of sin and death exist.The principle of sin and death for man would never have existed If man had not sinned and GOD's law would not have had to be given ,but since man did sin and sin Is not Imputed where there Is no law,the law was given and we know that men were going to come up short of the glory of GOD because of the weakness of his flesh.He could not be righteous of his own strength perfectly ,the principle of sin and death would be expected every time he tried to be perfect of his own strength.He needed a savior.

No doubt!! AMEN! In addition, just as Paul mentioned of himself, there was a law in his flesh that warred against the law in his mind. We will be in this fight as long as we are in this mortal body. Christians that is. Non believers don't have that fight.
"Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ." (2 Timothy 2:3)