Apparent Dichotomy but in Truth FULL Agreement ! What is Janes Saying Here?

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Apr 15, 2017
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#61
Jas 2:15-26
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
KJV

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
KJV

What is James saying here?
Paul,James,and John,all say the same thing.

And that is charity,love in action.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

1Jn 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1Jn 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
1Jn 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Without love we cannot inherit eternal life,and this love must be to all people,and if we hate one person then we cannot obtain salvation,which by the Spirit we can love perfectly to be able to obtain salvation.

It is all about love,for God's kingdom is perfect love,feed and clothe your enemies,love your enemies,bless them that curse you,do good to them that hate you,and pray for them that despitefully use you,and persecute you,where the world does not operate that way,but have hate for other people,and arrogance.

When we are saved what we are learning is how to love,for love is the fulfilling of the law,and we go by love God,and love people.

It is obvious that we have to have love led of the Spirit to be able to have eternal life,and this love has to extend to all people.

1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
1Ti 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
1Ti 6:7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
1Ti 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Paul states that love has to have actions,which is charity,love in action,and the love of money is the root of all evil,for it violates the two greatest commandments,love God,and love people,for if you love people,you love God,and the love of money neglects the poor and needy,which is what it is all about.

1Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

John said do not love in word only,but love in deed and in truth,which our love has to be accompanied with actions,if it does call for an action,and not by word only.

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James is saying the same thing as Paul,and John,to love in actions,and not word only.

That is the works that James is speaking about is works of love by the Spirit.

He did not point out keep this or that,but pointed out to have works of love by the Spirit,that results in actions,and not word only.

That is why He said if we do not then our faith is dead.

Why?Because we have to have love to be able to inherit eternal life,and it must be by actions,if it requires an action,and if it is possible,for not everybody has the means to financially help someone,as they have to provide for their family first.

God only blesses us with our needs,not our wants,and to help others with their needs if possible.

That is why the Paul says if a person preaches the prosperity Gospel,that God blesses with money,and material things,then withdraw yourself from them.

James is plainly stating that we have to have works of love towards people.

We follow the two greatest commandments in the New Testament,love God,and love people.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Our faith must have works involved or else we lack in faith,and these are works of love towards God,and people.

Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Abraham believed God,and it was counted as righteousness,but his faith lacked without the work,which He did not do the work of physical ordinances,and James did not even mention the spiritual law(although we always obey the spiritual law,moral laws,laws of love),but He obeyed God,and did what God wanted him to do,and believed unto righteousness,but did the work that impacted his faith.

We can believe,and it can be counted as righteousness,but faith is dead unless we do the works that the Spirit would have us do.

Why?

1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Because charity is greater than faith,for without love,and it has to be in action,faith is void in our life,and there is no eternal life,for it all about love,for love is the fulfilling of the law.

It is only believing,and faith,when we first confess Christ,and are saved,for that is all we can do,but after we receive the Spirit then our faith has to be backed up with works of love towards people,and do what the Spirit wants is to do,or else faith does not count.

Abraham believed unto righteousness,but his faith came in to play because he did the work that God wanted him to do,for a person is justified by works,and not faith alone,after they receive the Spirit.

Charity,love in action,is greater than faith,and although we are saved by faith,we have to have love,and it has to be actions,for without that,there is no salvation,for it is our love of God,and people,that determine our salvation.

There is no faith without perfect love for all people,nothing wavering,and even to love our enemies,and this love has to be by actions,works,which is why Paul called it charity,love in action,and John said,love in deed and in truth,and James said,do not say depart in peace,and be fed,and clothed,but feed,and clothe them yourselves,or your faith is void for God's kingdom is love,and if they do not help the poor and needy when they can then they are in the same position of those that are lost,because they do not love people like they should.

Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
Rev 2:3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

For people that think that if they have the Spirit they will do works,then how did these people at this Church leave their first love,and they were fallen,and Jesus told them to repent,and do the first works,or else He will go against them.

That is why James wrote faith without works is dead,and a person is justified by works,and not faith alone,because it is a salvation issue,because it is obvious that some that were saved,can lack,which Jesus said,they were fallen,and to repent,and do the first works,or else there is no salvation.

And those first works they lacked,that they were supposed to do,in which they left their first love is obviously the love for people,for that is our first love.

Jesus said they labored,and fainted not,and could not bear them that were evil,so they did not leave God,and Jesus,but they left their first love,the love of people.

Love is the fulfilling of the law,and Jesus said a new commandment He gives the disciples that they love one another,and this Church was lacking loving people like they should,so Jesus told them to do the first works,get back to loving people,taking care of their needs,and repent.

Act 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
Act 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

Act 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
Act 4:34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
Act 4:35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

This is how the Church started,and this is how the Church should operate,and that Church was lacking in love towards people,in which that compromises faith.

For charity is greater than faith,for without love there is no faith,for it is dead,and then there is no salvation.

For those who believe in the prosperity Gospel,and using money for wants,and lusts,and worldliness,and not helping the poor,and needy,as you ought,Jesus said repent,and do the first works,which is love people,and not entertaining your wants,and lusts.

Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Rahab was justified by works,and again it was concerning love towards people,the two Jewish men.

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

James is stating have works of love,charity,love in action,for charity is greater than faith,for without love,and it has to have action,if it requires an action,then faith is dead,and then no salvation.

James is speaking a salvation issue for those that lack,which they can lack as Jesus pointed out at the Church of Ephesus.

Paul,James,and John,all say the same thing,have charity,love in action,and if you do not,Paul,or you are nothing,James,or your faith is dead,John,or the love of God does not dwell in you.

If they do not give heed to what James said,then they would have to ignore what Paul said,and have to ignore what John said,for they all say the same thing.

Have charity,love in action.

And we are saved by grace through faith,but if a person is not following charity,love in action,like they should,then their faith is dead,then how does grace apply to them.

Again.

Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

These people were saved,for they were fallen,and they were saved,because Jesus told them to repent,and get right with Him,and they left their first love,the love of people,so it is possible for a person to be saved,but not abide like they should in love for people.

That is what James is saying,love people,charity,or there is no faith,and they would fall to the same position as this Church.

But there are some that think if they have the Spirit they will do the works,and not lack,but we see that they can lack.

Abraham obeyed God to sacrifice Isaac,and he believed God and it was imputed to him for righteousness,but his work made his faith perfect,which he had to do more than believe,but had to have action for his faith to be made perfect.

For a person is justified by works,and not by faith alone.
 
Dec 9, 2011
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#62
Ephesians 2:

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.



Clearly we are saved by grace through faith. Once saved, what are the good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them?

Are those good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them the same thing spoken of by James?
Yes, good spiritual fruit will be displayed and seen by other men.
 
Dec 9, 2011
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#63
The Bible says we will judged by the Law of Liberty.

So what is Grace, really?

Does grace mean we swan into eternity regardless of what we do on earth, or does it mean we are now exempt from the eternal death sentence our sin brings on us, but we are still under judgement?

I think it may just mean that we are now guaranteed to be granted new life when we die, but we are still judged on our behaviour.

[FONT=&]James 2:12[/FONT]
So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.


Grace Is a free gift provided by GOD for man because man was not able to reach GOD In his own strength and those who believe the WORD of GOD are no longer condemned and are now under Grace the law of liberty as brother James said,and our behavior?Those who have been reborn will seek to purify themselves even as they are pure.

We will be judged at the bema seat for rewards.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#64
then why does scripture say they do?

people use terms like 'real' faith or 'saving' faith in comparison to what they say is 'false' faith ie: the person was never a believer

so let's use the term 'saving' faith and agree with scripture when it says that faith, saving faith, will produce good works

this is not salvation, so don't stumble over it. seems many do
yes a distinction betwenn the things of God the faith of God and the things of men as the faith coming form men must be made .

What if some do not believe the scriptures will there unbelief no faith make the faith of God without effect . To effect something is to work it out. By a work of our faithful creators he belived something would appear and he worked it out by say let there be and their was light. the substance of His faith.

There are many who assume God does not need faith and theretofore has none ....therefore putting their own selves in the position of God as gods making the first commandment to no effect. . They in doing so prove themselves to be the liar

What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. For what if some "did not believe?" shall their unbelief make the "faith of God "without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.Rom 3:1

We work out what is freely given with no cost on our behalf not work for to gain because it is Christ who does work in these er then bodies that does work in us to both will and do His good pleasure. the imputed righteousness, not of our own selves lest any man boast in false pride .

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.For it is God which worketh in you both "to will "and "to do" of his good pleasure.Phi 2:12

Mankind gave that work up in the garden so that mankind could do the will of another the god of this world .as the wisdom of this world works in them to do the pleasure of the father of lies, another being that has no form .
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#65
Grace Is a free gift provided by GOD for man because man was not able to reach GOD In his own strength and those who believe the WORD of GOD are no longer condemned and are now under Grace the law of liberty as brother James said,and our behavior?Those who have been reborn will seek to purify themselves even as they are pure.

We will be judged at the bema seat for rewards.
In principle as a law not subject to change Christ is the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world (the six days he did work to provide salvation for His bride the church). As an outward demonstration of that finished work of the Son of man he sat in the judgement seat of Christ and was declared guilty. The believer will not come into condemnation as if our sin will be judged twice crucifying Christ over and over as if one demonstration few short of the unseen glory of the father . The reward remains the same for every new creature born of God, eternal life.
 

J7

Banned
Apr 2, 2017
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#66
What is the bema seat?
Grace Is a free gift provided by GOD for man because man was not able to reach GOD In his own strength and those who believe the WORD of GOD are no longer condemned and are now under Grace the law of liberty as brother James said,and our behavior?Those who have been reborn will seek to purify themselves even as they are pure.

We will be judged at the bema seat for rewards.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#67
It's where you get bema'd up to Scotty......:p
 
Dec 9, 2011
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#68
Grace Is a free gift provided by GOD for man because man was not able to reach GOD In his own strength and those who believe the WORD of GOD are no longer condemned and are now under Grace the law of liberty as brother James said,and our behavior?Those who have been reborn will seek to purify themselves even as they are pure.

We will be judged at the bema seat for rewards.
What is the bema seat?
The bema seat Is where those that are In CHRIST will have their works tested to see whether their works receive rewards.

1 Corinthians 3:8-15
King James Version(KJV)

8.) Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

9.) For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

10.) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11.)For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12.)Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13.)Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14.)If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15.)If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
 
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#69
In principle as a law not subject to change Christ is the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world (the six days he did work to provide salvation for His bride the church). As an outward demonstration of that finished work of the Son of man he sat in the judgement seat of Christ and was declared guilty. The believer will not come into condemnation as if our sin will be judged twice crucifying Christ over and over as if one demonstration few short of the unseen glory of the father . The reward remains the same for every new creature born of God, eternal life.
Look at post#68.
There Is a great white throne judgement for the unbelievers where there will be gnashing of teeth.

And as you see In post 68,a judgement seat for rewards.
 
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heartofdavid

Guest
#71
So many salvation threads.

So many posting what is salvation.

Religion vs truth.

Concept vs Jesus.

Mental vs experience

Man centered vs God centered
 
Dec 9, 2011
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#72
So many salvation threads.

So many posting what is salvation.

Religion vs truth.

Concept vs Jesus.

Mental vs experience

Man centered vs God centered
:)I was curious as to what do you believe Is religious and what do you believe Is truth,would you say that work before salvation Is truth or would you say that work after salvation Is truth?