Apparent Dichotomy but in Truth FULL Agreement ! What is Janes Saying Here?

[John146]

But do you believe a person Is saved by faith alone and do you believe a person has to do good works to stay saved?

Faith alone...but whose faith? Paul says we are justified by the faith of Jesus Christ upon belief.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Until one understands the audience of Paul vs the audience of James, this discussion will continue...

There is no amount of works we can do that will justify ourselves in the sight of God. And there is no amount of works a man can do to justify themselves in the sight of other men. There are plenty of lost people who out perform Christians. Is man our judge or God?

 

[seed_time_harvest]

where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay[

I see what you mean,the law Is of works.
I had It wrong.I apologize.

 

[garee]

Jas 2:15-26
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
KJV

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
KJV

What is James saying here?

Bottom line. He is saying do not blaspheme the Holy name by which we are called heavenward.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

See how by the works of Christ, the Holy Spirit of God. Christ is justified, and not by His faith only. He is both the just one and justifier.(forgiver)

The grace freely given is given in respect to His three day labor of Love also called a work of faith.. And not that of our own selves lest any man believe ( exercise a faith )in vain.

Defining whose faith as a work that is doing the work required must be understood. it is there that the father of lies turn things upside down as if the things of God were of men and those of men were of God. therefore taking away the understanding God gives to us as he does work in us to both will and do his good pleasure.

The faith in Chapter 2 is not that coming from the creature. But the faith of God that works in the new creature (believer) as God’s Holy Spirit (the Spirit of Christ) works to both will and perform His good pleasure. It is the treasure spoken of in 2 Corinthians ...in us no but not of us.

2Co 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

It defines His righteousness that he imputes to us as a free unmerited gift .

It was by a work of faith that our faithful Creator created the heaven and earth. Having believed what would appear he brought it into effect by the power of His I living word ....declaring ...let there be and there was. Therefore we can see how the faith of God worked with His works and by works (Let there be ) there was

From my experience when defining whose faith is in view as to which direction, God’s towards us or us towards him must be determined . The things of God or those of men.

The father of lies would have us believe its all one in the same faith. And therefore person can be their own god as the source of faith.

In most cases when discussing whether God has faith or needs it many will say God does not need faith or does he have it.This is as if faith was only in respect to the things seen men.

Chapter 2 of James starts out with a loving commandment not have the faith "of" Christ ,the anointing Holy Spirit "of" God in respect to that seen men. If so men have blasphemed the Holy name by which we are called . To blaspheme is to rob the authority of the author and finisher of faith . Like plagiarism .

The parable using clothing as that seen (the temporal) to represent the righteousness of Christ not seen (the eternal) by which clothes His bride the church reads....

Jam 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
Jam 2:7 Do not they "blaspheme" that worthy name by the which ye are called?


Once a person understands that faith cannot be separated from works as a labor of love then the seemingly difference between Paul and James can be reconciled. Faith is a work .It cannot anymore be separated then could the spirit life essence of men from the flesh of man formed from the dust.

 

[J7]

In James 2:24, does justified mean the same thing as saved?

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Excellent question. What does saved mean?

On its own, saved means saved from death, i.e. Given an immortal body. That is clearly a future event.

But James and Paul talk about saved in the past tense? How so?
Because salvation works through faith.

I.E. Although salvation is a future event, we make it a material reality through faith.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Faith makes what is not, to be.

So by faith we make salvation real and concrete, a state we are already in, i.e. We are saved now, rather than we are saved in the future.

So although at a future point Christ, and Christ alone, saves us, with no input from us, here and now by adding our faith, we make salvation a present reality. As I believe I will be saved from death, my belief in this has substance to the effect I am actually now saved.

But Faith has other consequences. When we believe Jesus will save us, we then also believe other things, and these manifest in our lives. Now if we do not manifest, as James says, then we are not really in faith. Now if we are not really in faith, then we are not really saved, as being saved here and now can only take effect through faith.

Does that make sense?

 

[loveme1]

I see what you mean,the law Is of works.
I had It wrong.I apologize.

I should of been clearer to my dear..

GOD Bless.

 

[John146]

Excellent question. What does saved mean?

On its own, saved means saved from death, i.e. Given an immortal body. That is clearly a future event.

But James and Paul talk about saved in the past tense? How so?
Because salvation works through faith.

I.E. Although salvation is a future event, we make it a material reality through faith.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Faith makes what is not, to be.

So by faith we make salvation real and concrete, a state we are already in, i.e. We are saved now, rather than we are saved in the future.

So although at a future point Christ, and Christ alone, saves us, with no input from us, here and now by adding our faith, we make salvation a present reality. As I believe I will be saved from death, my belief in this has substance to the effect I am actually now saved.

But Faith has other consequences. When we believe Jesus will save us, we then also believe other things, and these manifest in our lives. Now if we do not manifest, as James says, then we are not really in faith. Now if we are not really in faith, then we are not really saved, as being saved here and now can only take effect through faith.

Does that make sense?

Saved does not always mean eternally saved in the Bible. Sometimes the word saved is pointing to being saved physically from danger here on earth. Some will be saved physically through the Great Tribulation and ushered into the Millennial reign of Christ.

 

[J7]

Saved and redeemed can indeed mean those things. But post AD73, the 'Great Tribulation', we only look to salvation from death, i.e eternal life. Your futurist thing will possibly confuse the issue.

But even if it applied, it still holds true. We account ourselves, credit ourselves in a manner of speaking, with salvation from some future judgement.

 

[MarcR]

There is a division between faith as belief, and faith as action. It is a two part process.

I believe that the earth is round, and therefore I attempt to fly or sail round it.

Our behaviour is conditioned by our beliefs.

If I give alms to the poor because I want to get on primetime TV and become a star, my beliefs are rubbish, even though my actions appear benevolent.
If I believe in Jesus, but hoard my millions ....My beliefs are correct, but my actions stink.
If I believe in Jesus and therefore give alms to the poor, then the belief set and actions are both good.

That is somewhat simplistic.

The point about Faith is that Faith is a two part process; we believe certain things, and then behave a certain way that reflects those beliefs. When we believe in Jesus, we then are batized in the Holy Spirit, and then we behave a certain way. Our actions (works) are guided by Jesus.

James says that if someone professes Christ, but no fruit, works, appear, then it is a false profession.

Paul says that Faith is both unitary, but also bipartite. It is unitary insofar as Faith and Works are all part of the same deal, bipartite insofar as we can break faith down into belief and consequent action. He breaks it down because the body must follow the mind. But this is illustrative. It is to show we need to get our heads straight first with God. We need to totally believe God.
However, in practice Paul sees Faith the same as James. Faith needs to be accompanied by action.

I agree with everything you said here. What I disagreed with was the idea that James believed that works contribute towards salvation. I don't think you believe that works contribute to Salvation. I wanted to clarify that James didn't think so either.

 

[tourist]

I agree with everything you said here. What I disagreed with was the idea that James believed that works contribute towards salvation. I don't think you believe that works contribute to Salvation. I wanted to clarify that James didn't think so either.

James said that faith without works is a dead faith. Works are a manifestation of faith but by themselves will not save. Your scriptural understanding is right on track.

 

[John146]

James said that faith without works is a dead faith. Works are a manifestation of faith but by themselves will not save. Your scriptural understanding is right on track.

No amount of works prove or disprove one's salvation.

 

[Enow]

Jas 2:15-26
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
KJV

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
KJV

What is James saying here?

There are different applications of faith in God;

There is faith in Jesus Christ for salvation which is without works since you receive the promise of the Holy Spirit at your salvation and therefore you are saved simply for coming to & believing in Jesus Christ that God raised Him from the dead.

Then there is faith in God to provide which requires an example set by those who claim to have that faith in Him to provide.

James was addressing the abuse of the poor from the beginning of that chapter where the church was having respect of persons, showing favoritism to the rich members of their congregation while treating the poor as second class christians.

Per your reference, James was showing another abuse of the poor by that church when after service, the church spout "be warmed and be filled" as if by saying so of their faith in God to provide, He will do it WITHOUT the church meeting any of their immediate needs from the bounty collected during church service.

In other words, James was unto them. James knew the church was abusing the poor in not showing love for one another in meeting their immediate needs of those poor that were ready to perish from starvation and the elements. So in getting out of helping those poor ready to perish, the church would give a parting benediction to the poor by voicing their faith in God to provide for the poor just by saying "be warmed and be filled" as if one could say to the sick, "be well" or the lame, "be healed whole".

So James was rebuking that church for voicing faith in God's Providence in getting out of helping the poor. That is why James said for that kind of faith to be without works, it will not "profit" the poor nor "save" the poor from starvation nor the elements when the church fails in the eyes of the poor to set the example by helping the poor today from the bounty collected at church service while having faith in God to provide for the ministry of the church tomorrow.

James made a reference to the well know story of Abraham & Isaac in how God provided a sacrifice to spare Isaac. Isaac had asked his father about where the sacrifice was, even though Abraham was told by God to sacrifice his son to Him. Abraham said that God will provide. That was his faith in God to do so. Then when he was about to kill his son, the Lord stopped him, and provided a sacrifice in the place of his son. That story and the name of the place is the whole point of that reference by James which is Jehovah-jireh ; God will provide for His servants.

It was never about faith in Jesus Christ for salvation requiring works. There are too many scripture testifying salvation as standing apart from any works of man because as soon as sinners believe in Him, they have received the promise of the Spirit at their salvation; and the fact that the Holy Spirit is in them is the testimony from the Triune God that believers are saved.

But too many believers and teachers and educated scholars of high degrees are going to argue that James was talking about all kinds of faith, including the faith in Jesus Christ for salvation needing examples or works as proof.

The problem with that is a christian can backslide or sow to the flesh in reaping corruption that believers may be tempted to say that they were never saved behind their backs when Jesus requires them to correct them in His love by the scripture because they are still His or that they may be tempted to say that they had lost their salvation BUT if & when they repent, christians tell them that it is impossible because they would be crucifying Jesus Christ again which is not the case at all. They are reading the book of Hebrews wrong just as they had read the book of James wrong.

It is impossible for them to be saved again because they are still His. It is impossible to crucify the Son of God again, because that one time sacrifice for sins is enough and that seal of adoption is not going anywhere.

John 6:[SUP]39 [/SUP]And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.[SUP] 40 [/SUP]And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Ephesians 4:[SUP]30 [/SUP]And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

1 Corinthians 6:[SUP]19 [/SUP]What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?[SUP]20 [/SUP]For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Believers that build on that foundation wood, stubble, and hay as in, sow to the works of the flesh and do not repent by looking to Jesus Christ as their Good Shepherd to lay aside every weight & sin, but defile the temple of God, which is their body, that temple will be destroyed which is another way of saying receiving a physical death, but the spirit is saved.

1 Corinthians 3:[SUP]13 [/SUP]Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.[SUP] 14 [/SUP]If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.[SUP] 15 [/SUP]If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.[SUP] 16 [/SUP]Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?[SUP]17 [/SUP]If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Indeed, those left behind will experience death as that is when God will judge His House first at that day of the rapture.

Revelation 2:[SUP]21 [/SUP]And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.[SUP] 22 [/SUP]Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery withher into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.[SUP]23 [/SUP]And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

So God judging His House first by excommunicating those not found abiding in Him by His grace & by His help is for the same purpose as the excommunication done by the church towards unrepentant sinners.

1 Peter 4:[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?[SUP] 18 [/SUP]And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?[SUP] 19 [/SUP]Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

1 Corinthians 5:[SUP]4 [/SUP]In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,[SUP]5 [/SUP]To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
So unrepentant saints cast away to suffer the great tribulation, the Lord will keep their souls for He can lose none of all the Father has given Him.

Running that race is not for salvation but to be found abiding in Him by His grace & by His help from our Good Shepherd so that when the Bridegroom comes, we may be received by Him as vessels unto honor In His House to attend the Marriage Supper to escape the coming fire on the earth and the subsequent great tribulation as a result.

Those unrepentant saints and unrepentant former believers that shall be left behind still have His seal but they will be received as vessels unto dishonor in His House after the great tribulation.

2 Peter 3:[SUP]3 [/SUP]Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,[SUP] 4 [/SUP]And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.[SUP] 5 [/SUP]For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:[SUP] 6 [/SUP]Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:[SUP] 7 [/SUP]But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.[SUP] 8 [/SUP]But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.[SUP] 9 [/SUP]The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.[SUP] 10 [/SUP]But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.[SUP] 11 [/SUP]Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,[SUP] 12 [/SUP]Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?[SUP] 13 [/SUP]Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.[SUP]14 [/SUP]Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

2 Corinthians 5:[SUP]8 [/SUP]We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.[SUP] 9 [/SUP]Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.[SUP] 11 [/SUP]Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

2 Timothy 2:[SUP]18 [/SUP]Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.[SUP]19 [/SUP]Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.[SUP] 20 [/SUP]But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.[SUP]21 [/SUP]If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

So salvation is never at risk and faith in Jesus Christ does not need evidence to prove to men or to yourselves that you are saved when one could go through a crisis of faith in their walk with the Lord or backslide into sinning or err from the truth in stopping to believe in Him altogether, but He still abides.

2 Timothy 2:[SUP]13 [/SUP]If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Better for former believers to go before that throne of grace now to see the error and the help they need rather than wait for Him to come and scourge them in reproving them of their unrepentant iniquity, because they are His children.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Ephesians 2:

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Clearly we are saved by grace through faith. Once saved, what are the good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them?

Are those good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them the same thing spoken of by James?

 

[MarcR]

No amount of works prove or disprove one's salvation.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

No amount of works will bring or contribute to Salvation. However the works that we are created unto upon Salvation, are evidence of Salvation; and the absence of of the works that God does through us after we are saved is evidence that something is wrong with our walk with the Lord.

 

[Nehemiah6]

No amount of works prove or disprove one's salvation.

Since James already disproved you, kindly go back and study what James has said. In a nutshell, the evidence of genuine salvation before men is good works, and Jesus said this long before James (Mt 5:16).

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

 

[John146]

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

No amount of works will bring or contribute to Salvation. However the works that we are created unto upon Salvation, are evidence of Salvation; and the absence of of the works that God does through us after we are saved is evidence that something is wrong with our walk with the Lord.

What works could a man do to show evidence of his salvation? For every good work a man does, he probably does ten that could show evidence that he's not saved.

 

[John146]

Since James already disproved you, kindly go back and study what James has said. In a nutshell, the evidence of genuine salvation before men is good works, and Jesus said this long before James (Mt 5:16).

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

One example of works James uses is clothing those in need. Does this justify a man's salvation? I know many of lost people who would give the shirts off their back for another. No amount of works can justify a man's salvation.

 

[MarcR]

What works could a man do to show evidence of his salvation? For every good work a man does, he probably does ten that could show evidence that he's not saved.

It is not our works, but the works God does through us, that we can't take credit for, that give evidence of our Salvation.

 

[Nehemiah6]

No amount of works can justify a man's salvation.

Well, then you are disagreeing with the Lord Himself. Or perhaps you are simply misunderstanding the issue. To put it in plain English (and hypothetically) you have told your friends that you are saved, but done absolutely nothing as regards good works. One of your friends walks up to you and says "You claim you are saved, but the Bible says that those who are saved are saved UNTO GOOD WORKS. So what do you have to say for yourself?" And that is why Christ & James say that we show men that we are righteous (justified) when we do good works. However only God knows whether we are truly righteous in His sight.

 

[pottersclay]

James is saying that wishing someone well is not a work of faith. Be warm, be fed, God bless is not what we are to do.
If we have the means to give that which is needed then we should give.....didn't God do the same? He gave his son or did he wish us well?
By the same token what did Jesus give? I believe ...his all.
James also said be a doer of the word and not a hearer only deceiving yourself.

Faith does come by hearing the word of God but what good is hearing and not doing what it says. You can't out give God saints. Ya can't.

Will a scripture quoted keep them warm. Feed their hunger,? hide their nakedness? Has the word of God touched your heart or just occupy your mind? You should want to do this for this is the on going ministry of Christ.
To say do I have to do this is a troubled heart.

 

[Grace777x70]

I firmly believe that when the life of Christ that is in our inner man of the heart - the new creation in Him is manifesting in and through us - the love and grace of God will be evident.

It will show itself in "helping other" - being kind and loving. Blessing them with tangible things - like food and other necessities.

Sometimes we can use James to try to turn it into a "fruit inspection" time and those that believe our loving Father throws His beloved children into hell if they don't "do good works" - they try to use James to try to make this false doctrine seem true.


Another aspect that goes with "fruit inspectors" is just what is fruit? And what does this fruit look like?

What if as an analogy a Christian is like an orange tree?

An orange tree is still an orange tree even though it doesn't produce the fruit we want to see in the timeframe we think it should. What happens if this orange tree dies before it has had a chance to be fed properly to grow up to be able to produce the fruit of a ripe orange?

It is still an "orange tree" even if it didn't produce a full orange. It had leaves and maybe even flowers on it.

To some works-based people - you would have to display 50 oranges in order to prove you are a real orange tree ( saved ) - to others you need 100 oranges in order to be a proved orange tree. ( saved )

So, this fruit inspection thing for salvation as in where one spends eternity purposes is not viable ..that's for God to look at people to determine if they are in Christ or not.

A person could have love and kindness as a fruit in their life but be addicted to some pills or alcohol which they are continuing to struggle with in their life or outbursts of anger..etc.

We religious people love to "categorize" sin - especially the ones that we have never done before and then look down on those that do have a problem that we don't. We say that they are "sinning" - and they are but so are we in other areas too. We all have the flesh to deal with and none of us behaves perfectly in our behavior.

The people that don't have a struggle with alcohol ( or basically anything that they themselves don't struggle with in their flesh that others do ) will condemn the ones that do have these struggles in the flesh and declare they don't have the fruit and thus are not saved. This is Pharisee-ism at it's finest.

Does one have to give food to every person in the world in order to "maintain being saved" if James was talking about being justified before God?

Does the orange tree stop being an orange tree even though it dies without having fruit that we think "proves" it was an orange tree to begin with?

What if Christians were like that? What if we fed them messages about the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness in Christ so that they could grow? Then they would produce an abundance of fruit.

I say let's preach and teach the grace of Christ and the unconditional love of our good Father in the believer's lives so that they will have the proper nutrients to grow up in Him and His fruit of His life will be manifested in and through us so that others can see the love and grace our loving Father and Lord have for them!