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Thread: Whose Faith? Ours or Jesus'?

  1. #201
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    Default Re: Whose Faith? Ours or Jesus'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Depleted View Post
    I think God is honest too. I think you forget John 3:16 was in the middle of what Jesus said. Read the whole thing.

    I'm honest with you if I'm teaching you about driving a car and say something like, "put it in drive" too, but without the steps before that and the steps after that, I can also guarantee you won't be driving the car.
    I read the whole chapter 3 and I still believe that God is love, God not cause man do evil, but a man that love to do evil will not come to Christ. God not make a man to do evil, but God give a freedom for a man to choose."

    19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
    20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
    21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
    1ofthem likes this.

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    Default Re: Whose Faith? Ours or Jesus'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackson123 View Post
    I read the whole chapter 3 and I still believe that God is love, God not cause man do evil, but a man that love to do evil will not come to Christ. God not make a man to do evil, but God give a freedom for a man to choose."

    19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
    20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
    21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
    "For everyone that doeth evil hateth the light." Okay. Name one person who didn't doeth evil, besides Jesus.

    Take your time. Sooner or later, you're get to the point where it becomes obvious we all fit in that boat. And why did we do that evil? Because "men loved darkness rather than light."

    So who is going to turn around and do the opposite of what we love? I'm not running out for liver because I hate liver. I'm not rushing out to run through spider webs in hopes of finding a nice big spider, because I hate spiders. Is there anything you've ever gone out of your way to do simply because you know you hate doing it? So why would we choose God? We hated him!

    What changed? We certainly didn't want to change. We were enjoying that darkness. But God changed us. Says so right in that last verse. Our deeds were "made manifest, that they are wrought by God." God wroughted, not us. See? God's plan all along pulled off. Suddenly we, who would hide from God, run to him in joy.

    That's bigger than me eating liver with a spider on my shoulder. (Oh, and a lot more pleasant. lol)
    Angela53510 likes this.
    Lynn

    Still woman, but no lady.

    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

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    Default Re: Whose Faith? Ours or Jesus'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Depleted View Post
    "For everyone that doeth evil hateth the light." Okay. Name one person who didn't doeth evil, besides Jesus.

    Take your time. Sooner or later, you're get to the point where it becomes obvious we all fit in that boat. And why did we do that evil? Because "men loved darkness rather than light."

    So who is going to turn around and do the opposite of what we love? I'm not running out for liver because I hate liver. I'm not rushing out to run through spider webs in hopes of finding a nice big spider, because I hate spiders. Is there anything you've ever gone out of your way to do simply because you know you hate doing it? So why would we choose God? We hated him!

    What changed? We certainly didn't want to change. We were enjoying that darkness. But God changed us. Says so right in that last verse. Our deeds were "made manifest, that they are wrought by God." God wroughted, not us. See? God's plan all along pulled off. Suddenly we, who would hide from God, run to him in joy.

    That's bigger than me eating liver with a spider on my shoulder. (Oh, and a lot more pleasant. lol)
    there is a man hate evil but do evil, Paul hate sin but his flesh did sin

    but there is a man love do evil and do evil

    every body do evil but some love o it some hate but do


    Roman 7
    15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

    a man not able to do good, not even Paul.

    but Paul hate sin.

    no body able to do good, but there are people doing sin and love sin, and there are people hate sin but doing sin

    verse 21 say he that do truth come to Me.

    who do truth, even Paul do sin.

    my interpretation is every one that love doing truth though. fail like Paul, consider doing truth, when Paul kill Stephen he think he is doing truth, so he love doing truth, finally Jesus show him what is the right to do the truth, and he come tho the light.



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    Senior Member MarcR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whose Faith? Ours or Jesus'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosemaryx View Post
    Amen 1ofthem...I must admit I have to be very careful now in what I post...A few times I have posted what I believed the Holy Spirit has shown me only for someone to come along and rip it apart and tell me that what I have posted is wrong...I want to post what I have learnt, and I really do appreciate guidance to correct me if need be, only few will correct in a gentle manner, that`s what makes all the difference to me, someone who is loving in their ways with a gentle spirit, not a harsh cold reply which can often lead to babes or imature in the Lord to never post again, thank you for your reply, the Holy Spirit will always give me eyes to see and ears to hear...xox...
    Thank you Rosemary!

    Right in the middle of a verbal war you post something gentle and uplifting.

    You posted earlier that you have only been walking with the Lord for a little more than 2 months; but IMO you are showing more christian maturity than many who claim to have been saved for many years.

    You are a blessing to the forum and I hope others recognize it as I do.
    MarcR



    Blessings on you! (Nu 6:24-26)


    Col 3:16-17
    16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
    17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

    KJV

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    Default Re: Whose Faith? Ours or Jesus'?

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    I've heard people argue that it's faith "of" Jesus Christ and not our faith before when quoting Galatians 2:16 - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    Yet other translations read faith in Jesus Christ.. (NKJV, ESV, NIV, NAS etc..).

    In 1 Peter 1:9, we read - receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.

    So it's our faith, yet although we are responsible to believe and will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18), saving faith is never exclusively a matter of human decision. Unless the Father draws us in (John 6:44) and enables us/unless it has been granted to him by My Father (John 6:65) we would NEVER come to Christ all by ourselves.

    The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose Christ, we must choose Him. The impulse to faith in Christ comes from God.
    Quote Originally Posted by 7seasrekeyed View Post
    I illustrated why this is so

    there are all kinds of faith in scripture and you have to ignore them in order to say that it is the faith of God

    people run over posts and do not even know what they believe

    yet criticize someone just because it's a personal grudge or ignore what is posted and then when someone else posts the same thing they are all over it ..

    not saying this to you...you remain polite
    The difference between versions here is something Angela will clear up later in the thread.

    Even if this verse and Ro 3:23 did not say the faith of Jesus; it is apparent that both are correct!

    Eph 2:8 tells us that it is the Faith God gave us that saves us . Ro 3:23 and Ga 2:16 explain that it is Jesus' faith and or faithfulness that made salvation possible on the cross.


    There is no conflict!
    7seasrekeyed likes this.
    MarcR



    Blessings on you! (Nu 6:24-26)


    Col 3:16-17
    16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
    17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

    KJV

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    Senior Member Rosemaryx's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whose Faith? Ours or Jesus'?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarcR View Post
    Thank you Rosemary!

    Right in the middle of a verbal war you post something gentle and uplifting.

    You posted earlier that you have only been walking with the Lord for a little more than 2 months; but IMO you are showing more christian maturity than many who claim to have been saved for many years.

    You are a blessing to the forum and I hope others recognize it as I do.
    Hi Marc...Did I say 2 months, I meant 22 months sorry...It will be 2 years on the 25th October, and do you know what haha, as I type this it is now 23 months, oh my, yes on the 25th October it will be two years...Thank you for your kind words, Jesus has changed me so much I still sit in awe to Him...Sometimes I think to myself on days when I am feeling weak that I have not come very far, I get lost in the negative mind, then remember that the evil one is pulling me into his pit, and then I come out from reading the word and stop and say " WOW ", and as look back and see all what only Jesus has done to change me , I get my peace back and just thank and praise Him , I love Him so much and yearn to know Him more...Once again I thank you for your kind words, but I can`t help but say All the glory to God, \o/, thats not just from my lips, but from deep down inside...xox...
    PSALM 107:20 He sends His word and heals me and rescues me from the pit and destruction.

  7. #207
    Senior Member MarcR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whose Faith? Ours or Jesus'?

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    I've heard people argue that it's faith "of" Jesus Christ and not our faith before when quoting Galatians 2:16 - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    Yet other translations read faith in Jesus Christ.. (NKJV, ESV, NIV, NAS etc..).

    In 1 Peter 1:9, we read - receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.

    So it's our faith, yet although we are responsible to believe and will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18), saving faith is never exclusively a matter of human decision. Unless the Father draws us in (John 6:44) and enables us/unless it has been granted to him by My Father (John 6:65) we would NEVER come to Christ all by ourselves.

    The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose Christ, we must choose Him. The impulse to faith in Christ comes from God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackson123 View Post
    I believe the Father is just. The Father not on random choose which, I believe there is a certain criteria.

    it may because a man is believe to His son then the Father give it to Jesus.

    let Bible interpreted itself.

    bible said, who believe will save
    I believe that you are correct. I believe that the criteria is that God has foreknowledge of who is predisposed to accept Jesus. That is the only way "you have not chosen Me but I have chosen you"; and "whosoever will may come" can be simultaneously true.
    MarcR



    Blessings on you! (Nu 6:24-26)


    Col 3:16-17
    16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
    17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

    KJV

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    Default Re: Whose Faith? Ours or Jesus'?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarcR View Post
    I believe that you are correct. I believe that the criteria is that God has foreknowledge of who is predisposed to accept Jesus. That is the only way "you have not chosen Me but I have chosen you"; and "whosoever will may come" can be simultaneously true.
    yep I believe God not chose on random, for example Paul, he love to do the truth, in order to do the truth, he kill Stephen, he love to do the truth in wrong way, than God chosen him to do the truth in correct way.

    the thief on the cross love to do the truth, but fail, why I believe the thief love to do the truth?
    because he said, we deserve punishment, but Not Him

    the thief defend the truth, though he fail to do it. Even Paul after accepted Jesus fail to do the truth and he admitted

    he do what he hate, he love to do the truth but he fail, what happen to us, we not more than Paul, yes we love to do the truth but we do what we hate.

  9. #209
    Senior Member MarcR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whose Faith? Ours or Jesus'?

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    I've heard people argue that it's faith "of" Jesus Christ and not our faith before when quoting Galatians 2:16 - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    Yet other translations read faith in Jesus Christ.. (NKJV, ESV, NIV, NAS etc..).

    In 1 Peter 1:9, we read - receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.

    So it's our faith, yet although we are responsible to believe and will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18), saving faith is never exclusively a matter of human decision. Unless the Father draws us in (John 6:44) and enables us/unless it has been granted to him by My Father (John 6:65) we would NEVER come to Christ all by ourselves.

    The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose Christ, we must choose Him. The impulse to faith in Christ comes from God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Depleted View Post
    Unless we're of the brain level where we can read the earliest manuscripts plus have a full understanding of the culture and the history behind every word in the Bible, (and, I've never heard of or met anyone who had that brain level), we will learn from others. It's a good idea, because there are men who did spend considerable amount of time to learn just that, so they could write it down for others. (I call them "my Dead Guys" because the commentators I use and the ones who wrote all the Bible aids I use are dead. And, considering they've been dead for 50 to a few hundred years now, they really were all guys.) Considering it's just not in me to spend 20-50 years of my life to study that much in depth, I'm very happy to read the ones who did think it was a good life-mission.

    The ones I don't trust are the ones who say that all they ever do is read directly from the Bible. At best, they're delusional or have memory problems. Some of the doctrine we all believe doesn't come directly from the Bible. Well, it does, but try and learn such concepts as "trinity" or "Jesus was 100% man and 100% God when he was on earth" in the same way those who worked out those doctrines did, and you'll go gaga just trying.

    It's not merely good to learn from others. It's fantastic. The harder part is to figure out who to trust when gathering that information. Whereas I wouldn't trust the Swaggarts, Marc mentioned a few sources I would trust. (Don't know Elliot. Not saying he's a bad source, just don't know the name.) And even with his suggestions, my personal taste goes with reading John Gill, but not always trusting him. Kind of funny, since my husband likes Gill more than some of the other guys I read.

    I can give you this much though, eSword tends to have good selections for trustworthy writers. (Gill is one of them, and I do trust him enough to read him whenever I'm trying to learn something in the Bible. My only thing against him is how much he likes bringing up targumim. Yeah, I know you probably don't know that word yet, but studying will bring it up eventually. lol)

    I just don't want you to be stuck thinking the only way you can learn is directly from scripture. Too many keep saying that while telling what they believed that didn't come from scripture itself.

    And, yeah. Really. You will get some of it right and some of it wrong. I have had to unlearn a lot of garbage I was taught. And I'm absolutely sure what I believe now, but know I will have my mind changed in the future even on that. At the end, I think everyone in heaven will be mumbling, "Ohhhh, THAT's what you meant! I did not get that." And often. lol
    I have many commentaries available; but the ones I find most useful are:

    Jamieson, Faucet & Brown ; Barnes Notes; Adam Clarke; and Charles Ellicott.

    All are available on E-Sword or through biblesupport.com. at no charge.
    Depleted and Desertsrose like this.
    MarcR



    Blessings on you! (Nu 6:24-26)


    Col 3:16-17
    16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
    17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

    KJV

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    Senior Member eternally-gratefull's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whose Faith? Ours or Jesus'?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarcR View Post
    I believe that you are correct. I believe that the criteria is that God has foreknowledge of who is predisposed to accept Jesus. That is the only way "you have not chosen Me but I have chosen you"; and "whosoever will may come" can be simultaneously true.
    It goes right along with john 6 I think,

    John 6: 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

    so what was predestined

    1. That all who is given to Christ, he will lose no e
    2. That whoever has faith in him has everlasting lif and he will raise them on the last day.

    We have t make a choice, but for th We who chose Christ, these things are assured.
    Last edited by eternally-gratefull; 1 Week Ago at 02:40 PM.
    MarcR and UnderGrace like this.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Senior Member IamWhoIam's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whose Faith? Ours or Jesus'?

    what would be the faith of Jesus? what does this involve?

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    Senior Member eternally-gratefull's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whose Faith? Ours or Jesus'?

    Quote Originally Posted by IamWhoIam View Post
    what would be the faith of Jesus? what does this involve?
    The cross and everything leading up to it
    dcontroversal and IamWhoIam like this.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Senior Member IamWhoIam's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whose Faith? Ours or Jesus'?

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    The cross and everything leading up to it
    that is a honorable answer Sir,

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    Default Re: Whose Faith? Ours or Jesus'?

    Still not settled I see.
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    Senior Member Desertsrose's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whose Faith? Ours or Jesus'?

    It's settled for me.

    I agree we live by the faith of the Son of God. I think we all know that even if we don't understand it in the Greek. It's nice to have Angela and Marc mention what the Greek is actually saying. So thank you to both of you for that!

    But as to the OP, because of the fact that our system of belief is the faith of Jesus Christ, it doesn't negate all the scriptures that speak about our own faith.

    I'm sure there are those who won't agree with the OP and that's okay, but I'm really happy we talked it all out and everyone shared their understanding of what the scriptures say.

    I think most here believe that we don't just rest in Jesus and He does it all for us. In other words, He doesn't obey for me, I do that by the faith He's given me.

    So when scripture says your faith, it means your/my faith. When it says the faith of Jesus, that's what it means. It's not one or the other, we live by both.

    Thanks to all who contributed to the thread. God bless you guys!
    SaveSave
    Ezekiel 18:23 Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

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    Senior Member Locutus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whose Faith? Ours or Jesus'?

    I don't have much faith in some of these responses....

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    Default Re: Whose Faith? Ours or Jesus'?

    ​LOLOL!!! Where would we all be without your faithful muses!
    Locutus likes this.
    Ezekiel 18:23 Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

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    Senior Member Locutus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whose Faith? Ours or Jesus'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Desertsrose View Post
    ​LOLOL!!! Where would we all be without your faithful muses!
    lol...

    Here's some more for our muse-ment:

    Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith

    Rom 9:31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.

    Rom 9:32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

    Israel sought after righteousness by works, but could not pursue righteousness by faith because they had not been given faith to pursue it.

    That's Catch 44 - twice as bad as Catch 22.
    dalok6800 likes this.

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    Default Re: Whose Faith? Ours or Jesus'?

    Quote Originally Posted by IamWhoIam View Post
    what would be the faith of Jesus? what does this involve?
    The faith of Christ (coming from the mind of Christ) is the work of Christ. Can't separate believing (exercising) the end of the work of faith work from performing what ones believes.

    God must do the first works if we are to love Him. It is the work of God, that men can believe on him whom he hath sent.


    Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
    Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he has sent.

    Not of our own selves after the imagination of ones own heart. (Blasphemy) Its either God working in us or it is not God working to both will and do His good pleasure. (no limbo in between)

    Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.Phi 2:12

    The other alternitive is that we offer dead work coming from the imagination of ones own heart as a work of faith toward God.

    The man in Mathew 7 that was revealed as a worker of iniquity offered his work of faith "toward God" (not coming from God)
    Jesus revealed how dead those wonderful works were that caused them to crucify Christ again and again every time they violate a law of God.

    Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

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    Senior Member IamWhoIam's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whose Faith? Ours or Jesus'?

    Jesus faith, He saw Nethienal under a fig tree before He laid His physical eyes upon him.

    who here has such faith?
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