Whose Faith? Ours or Jesus'?

[7seasrekeyed]

I'm not at all sure that if comes from a radical fringe at all.

I think that it is an honest reading of Rom 3:23. I don't totally disagree with it.

As I see it: We are saved by the faith we were given (Eph 2:8); which becomes ours when we receive it. However, the grace, which is fascillitated by our faith, is made possible by Jesus faith (faithfulness) in taking our penalty upon Himself.

this would be in keeping with

[h=1]John 6:44[/h][FONT=&quot]44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

and this is what I believe and what I have stated

however, it seems some are saying it is all and always the faith of Jesus which I do not agree with at all (I have seen in some other threads where someone will state that EVERYTHING is done by Jesus as though we have no responsibility and it is this in particular that is not in accord with the Bible)

I think it is an extrapolation from the truth that 'positionally' we are IN Christ.

however, I still see Eph. 2:8 as the salvation is not of ourselves

if we state the faith is not of ourselves, we are somehow leaving out 'whosoever will'

I don't believe in disregarding one scripture that seems to pry us off our understanding in order to reconcile what might be difficult and I am not saying you are saying that

see, when I read some of these posts, I am remembering in some cases what was said by the same person in another thread and I do not find a continuance in some cases other than in arguing with someone they disagreed with in another thread...and such seems to be the nature of the beast

Jesus did say to Peter that God had revealed to him that Jesus is the Son of God...Jesus said it was not flesh and blood that revealed that to him

do we not still have to have the faith to accept that? we must or some would not turn away or say things like 'well I believe but it's not for me'

[/FONT]

 

[Magenta]

It doesn't appear so simple to me. First He has to draw you. Then He has to heal your blindness. If He didn't draw me, I'd have never come. And if He didn't heal my blindness, I never would have seen in the first place. I'd have kept on believing God didn't even exist. I didn't just choose to believe that God existed. I just suddenly saw that He did when I read the gospel. But then, that's just my experience.

Jesus said He would draw all people to Himself in John 12:32~

"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I like this thread and would like more comments. I hear this faith of Jesus and not personal faith more and more.

This sounds like Christian Unitarian Universalist teaching.

I agree but I don't know about it being universalist teaching although it does seem to correspond with some of the New Apostolic Reformation teaching going around

it seems to me, that some are treating teachers like a smorgasbord...oh I like this so I will believe it, but I don't like that so I will disregard it

you cannot do that with scripture

as I already stated way back, I never heard this teaching either until recently in this forum and different beliefs even within that teaching

some seem to think that postionally in Christ means we do nothing and that everything comes through the faith of Jesus

that boggles my mind frankly, as the NT is replete with our responsibility regarding the new covenant

 

[dcontroversal]

2 Thess 3:2
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

How are you defining not all men have faith? Are you saying all unreasonable and evil men do not have faith? Only a few believers have no faith? who are those who do not have faith?

I define not all men have faith to mean that unreasonable and wicked men men do not have faith, and they are ones that seek to destroy ministers proclaiming the Gospel. I do not define not all men have faith has anyone that believes because Romans 12:3 says God has given each believer a measure of faith.


Romans 12:3
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

You answered your own question.....

If believers have been dealt a measure of faith what does that imply about any and all unbelievers....?

 

[dalok6800]

this would be in keeping with

John 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

and this is what I believe and what I have stated

however, it seems some are saying it is all and always the faith of Jesus which I do not agree with at all (I have seen in some other threads where someone will state that EVERYTHING is done by Jesus as though we have no responsibility and it is this in particular that is not in accord with the Bible)

I think it is an extrapolation from the truth that 'positionally' we are IN Christ.

however, I still see Eph. 2:8 as the salvation is not of ourselves

if we state the faith is not of ourselves, we are somehow leaving out 'whosoever will'

I don't believe in disregarding one scripture that seems to pry us off our understanding in order to reconcile what might be difficult and I am not saying you are saying that

see, when I read some of these posts, I am remembering in some cases what was said by the same person in another thread and I do not find a continuance in some cases other than in arguing with someone they disagreed with in another thread...and such seems to be the nature of the beast

Jesus did say to Peter that God had revealed to him that Jesus is the Son of God...Jesus said it was not flesh and blood that revealed that to him

do we not still have to have the faith to accept that? we must or some would not turn away or say things like 'well I believe but it's not for me'

Hebrews 11:6
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

So whose faith pleases God, ours or his?

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Hebrews 11:6
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

So whose faith pleases God, ours or his?

well that's just it then

we can even ask for faith but you have to have faith to ask

I believe God has placed in mankind the reality of His existence..as Romans 1 teaches

faith is a vast subject and not just an either or kind of equation IMO

 

[1ofthem]

You answered your own question.....

If believers have been dealt a measure of faith what does that imply about any and all unbelievers....?

I am totally new to this topic so I am definitely no expert and this may not even make any sense to you...but I have always thought that verse meant that God has given every man the ability and opportunity to believe not just Christians. Every man was/is given the opportunity to believe (measure of faith) so we are no better than anyone else because God loves everyone and gave everyone a chance.

Now this is just my opinion here, but I think that If I say God chose me and gave me the ability to believe, but there is others that he won't give the ability to believe then I am thinking too highly of myself...if I say that for some unbeknownst reason God chose me to give faith too, but withheld faith from someone else, then I would feel that I was ultimately saying that I am better than that other person.

Like I said I really am new to this concept so I hope that made sense...

 

[dalok6800]

You answered your own question.....

If believers have been dealt a measure of faith what does that imply about any and all unbelievers....?

I believe those who have their hearts hardened as 2 Thess 3.2 show's us are different than those unbelievers who have not hardened their hearts.

 

[Jackson123]

It doesn't appear so simple to me. First He has to draw you. Then He has to heal your blindness. If He didn't draw me, I'd have never come. And if He didn't heal my blindness, I never would have seen in the first place. I'd have kept on believing God didn't even exist. I didn't just choose to believe that God existed. I just suddenly saw that He did when I read the gospel. But then, that's just my experience.

he invite every body to believe in Him, John 3:16 Said whoever. Faith come from hearing. He draw every body by speaking and He ask us to preach or speak so every body hear, and some time If He know muslim lookoing the truth but No Christian speak to him, He himself speak through dream and visions, It happen to a big Imam, my neigbors husband, he was big Imam, every time come to my town to preach, more than 10000 attended, now Christian preacher

so this gift come from hearing and not by force

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I am totally new to this topic so I am definitely no expert and this may not even make any sense to you...but I have always thought that verse meant that God has given every man the ability and opportunity to believe not just Christians. Every man was/is given the opportunity to believe (measure of faith) so we are no better than anyone else because God loves everyone and gave everyone a chance.

Now this is just my opinion here, but I think that If I say God chose me and gave me the ability to believe, but there is others that he won't give the ability to believe then I am thinking too highly of myself...if I say that for some unbeknownst reason God chose me to give faith too, but withheld faith from someone else, then I would feel that I was ultimately saying that I am better than that other person.

Like I said I really am new to this concept so I hope that made sense...

Yes, it made sense. It's very interesting to me too, because I struggled for a long time over why He would save me and give me my sight and yet people I knew who were just naturally kinder and better, still hadn't met Him.

So I was coming at it the same way as you were but...arrived at a different point. So I have found my next new intrigue.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

he invite every body to believe in Him, John 3:16 Said whoever. Faith come from hearing. He draw every body by speaking and He ask us to preach or speak so every body hear, and some time If He know muslim lookoing the truth but No Christian speak to him, He himself speak through dream and visions, It happen to a big Imam, my neigbors husband, he was big Imam, every time come to my town to preach, more than 10000 attended, now Christian preacher

so this gift come from hearing and not by force

That's a great story. It made me cry.

I didn't mean to say He forced me to believe. I only meant to say that all my life I was blind and thought God didn't exist, but then He healed my sight and I suddenly saw that He was.

I had some hard times over why He didn't save other men I knew who were kinder and better than me. I heard all of the arguments but none of them made sense to me with scripture, so I just decided that I would rather feel the pain of why rather than accept any explanation that seemed to not fit with all of scripture.

I wanted very badly to blame other men for their blindness so I didn't have to feel the pain of it, but I just couldn't. But I always have hope because He knows when each of us is ready for love.

 

[Magenta]

That's a great story. It made me cry.

I didn't mean to say He forced me to believe. I only meant to say that all my life I was blind and thought God didn't exist, but then He healed my sight and I suddenly saw that He was.

I had some hard times over why He didn't save other men I knew who were kinder and better than me. I heard all of the arguments but none of them made sense to me with scripture, so I just decided that I would rather feel the pain of why rather than accept any explanation that seemed to not fit with all of scripture.

I wanted very badly to blame other men for their blindness so I didn't have to feel the pain of it, but I just couldn't. But I always have hope because He knows when each of us is ready for love.

Scripture says they are without excuse; their pride of life blinds them.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Scripture says they are without excuse; their pride of life blinds them.

We are all without excuse. We deserve to die simply because of whose children we were.

And when pride of life blinded me too, I was also without excuse, but He healed my blindness and saved me anyway.

 

[dcontroversal]

I am totally new to this topic so I am definitely no expert and this may not even make any sense to you...but I have always thought that verse meant that God has given every man the ability and opportunity to believe not just Christians. Every man was/is given the opportunity to believe (measure of faith) so we are no better than anyone else because God loves everyone and gave everyone a chance.

Now this is just my opinion here, but I think that If I say God chose me and gave me the ability to believe, but there is others that he won't give the ability to believe then I am thinking too highly of myself...if I say that for some unbeknownst reason God chose me to give faith too, but withheld faith from someone else, then I would feel that I was ultimately saying that I am better than that other person.

Like I said I really am new to this concept so I hope that made sense...

I used to think that, but the measure of faith is given unto those that are saved....it seems....and then it also states that ALL men have not faith......so there is the conundrum......I also think that the conscience also comes into play as that divine spark that can be pricked and or seared beyond the ability to be moved....

 

[Depleted]

Hi Lynn,

This is just soooooo totally false. Please read the OP again. Well here I'll post it for you again.



I have to wonder if you're trying to misrepresent me or are you calling me a liar maybe? At the very beginning of the OP I asked what scriptures would support this thought that we don't have our own faith.

1. It wasn't asking where people get the idea that faith comes from God; it's about our own personal faith that we walk in daily.
2. It was asking for scriptures.
3. It not about reformed theology at all.

​We all know that faith comes from God.

I already explained to you why I asked the question about our own personal faith that belongs to us. Derailing the thread is fine, but don't say things that aren't true.

I'll say it again - "this was never about Calvinism." It's about WOF/HG/3rdW thinking.

I have never heard this until I came here to CC. Does anyone know when this teaching began? Is it a denominational teaching?

As it stands now, not only are you twisting what you said the first time, but you're twisting what I said to 1ofthem into something about you.Nah!

From now on, how about just asking what you really want to know -- can you blame WoiF for this one too?

Sorry. No idea, but this Calvinist is out of here.

I'm tired of this crap! When someone can't even tell she did ask that and blames it on me? Nah! Enjoy your little worldview.

 

[dcontroversal]

I believe those who have their hearts hardened as 2 Thess 3.2 show's us are different than those unbelievers who have not hardened their hearts.

That is where the conscience comes in....that divine spark that can be exercised and or seared........

 

[dcontroversal]

I am totally new to this topic so I am definitely no expert and this may not even make any sense to you...but I have always thought that verse meant that God has given every man the ability and opportunity to believe not just Christians. Every man was/is given the opportunity to believe (measure of faith) so we are no better than anyone else because God loves everyone and gave everyone a chance.

Now this is just my opinion here, but I think that If I say God chose me and gave me the ability to believe, but there is others that he won't give the ability to believe then I am thinking too highly of myself...if I say that for some unbeknownst reason God chose me to give faith too, but withheld faith from someone else, then I would feel that I was ultimately saying that I am better than that other person.

Like I said I really am new to this concept so I hope that made sense...

Now we get off into a whole new area...think about the following...

a. MANY are called but few chosen <---MANY is not ALL
b. The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. <--Does this sound like they have a chance?

God would have all men be saved and come to the truth, but he also knows the choice and fate of every man....Judas is a prime example....

 

[1ofthem]

Now we get off into a whole new area...think about the following...

a. MANY are called but few chosen <---MANY is not ALL
b. The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. <--Does this sound like they have a chance?

God would have all men be saved and come to the truth, but he also knows the choice and fate of every man....Judas is a prime example....

Thanks for the reply...those are some scriptures that I do need to study more...my thoughts on them now is that many are called (all have a chance) but few are chosen (grafted in upon believing). Once we are saved then we are chosen, but God already knows before hand who will and won't accept the calling.

With Judas, Pharaoh, and the wicked...I view them as the reprobates talked about in Romans 1-28
28 [FONT=&quot]And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

[/FONT]But like I said I am no expert on this, and I need to study the scripture more because right now this is just my thoughts on it. So thanks for the scriptures and the reply.

 

[1ofthem]

Yes, it made sense. It's very interesting to me too, because I struggled for a long time over why He would save me and give me my sight and yet people I knew who were just naturally kinder and better, still hadn't met Him.

So I was coming at it the same way as you were but...arrived at a different point. So I have found my next new intrigue.

Thanks for the kind reply...I do enjoy discussing scripture in this manner. I am at different point than you are right now, but thanks for sharing your experience with me

 

[Jackson123]

That's a great story. It made me cry.

I didn't mean to say He forced me to believe. I only meant to say that all my life I was blind and thought God didn't exist, but then He healed my sight and I suddenly saw that He was.

I had some hard times over why He didn't save other men I knew who were kinder and better than me. I heard all of the arguments but none of them made sense to me with scripture, so I just decided that I would rather feel the pain of why rather than accept any explanation that seemed to not fit with all of scripture.

I wanted very badly to blame other men for their blindness so I didn't have to feel the pain of it, but I just couldn't. But I always have hope because He knows when each of us is ready for love.

What I believe is:

God is love and invite every body include Buddhis, Hindu or muslim, or jew to believe in Him

He want us to speak to them about this invitation

Faith come from hearing It mean one must speak or write and If No body speak, God Himself speak. About How God himself speak, we can go to youtube and a Lot of testimonies from muslim country how God come in visions or dream.

God love every body and invite every body, If one go to hell, do not Blake God for not give them faith, God offer faith to every body because of love. If God harden one heart I do not believe because of hatred, hartred is again the Natur-E of God, It may because of that man is wicked so God harden his heart, like pharaoh, before God harden his heart, he already wicked.

God not a Cruel God, make a man than harden his heart without reason so He can send him to hell, and enjoy the mi seru of other ? He send His son to end and to save other from hell, not all the way around.

God not engineer people to go to hell and enjoy It. God sad when people to hell. I have a son, the devil work oN him, the last 3 months he do not believe in God anymore, and It make me sad, that is what happen with God, He sad to see people reject Him.

He love every body and offer every body a faith, but It is up to every body to accept It or not

and If only one among a thousand accept Him, all the angel in heaven make a big party.

Can you imagine Jesus Said If one accept Him all the angel in heaven Happy and celebrate It with big party, than behind the screen God engineer people go to hell? What a Lie God is. Publicly He show His great longing to save all people, behind the screen He engineer people to go to hell.

I do not think It what God did.

Yes He choose people, but It is not oN random basis. He choose WHO believe or potential believe