Some honest answers for honest questions Part I

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Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#1
Ever since Westcott & Hort radically changed the New Testament Greek text and applied it to the English Revised Version (1881) there has been a battle between Bible versions and their underlying Hebrew and Greek texts. Given the fact that the Bible is the Word of God for millions of Christians, we must be fully persuaded that the Bibles we use have not been tampered with, and are indeed faithful word-for-word translations from the original languages (as much as possible in producing a translation). So Christians owe it to themselves to ask some honest questions about this matter and receive honest answers, not propaganda. A couple of critical questions which Christians should ask are:

1. Does the Received Text (TR for Textus Receptus) of the New Testament truly represent the autographs (original inspired manuscripts)?

2. Were the printed editions of the Greek text during the Reformation basically all the same and did they represent the Received Text?

1. Does the Received Text of the New Testament truly represent the autographs?
The short answer is Yes”. Both the rationalistic critics who promoted a new critical text in the 19[SUP]th[/SUP] century, and the conservative textual scholars who opposed that text, agreed that the Received Text was the dominant text throughout the history of Christianity.

That the Traditional Text goes all the way back to the autographs was established by John William Burgon in his book (edited by Edward Miller) The Traditional Text of the Holy Gospels (1896), in which he proved through actual quotations in the writings of the Ante-Nicene Fathers (before 325 A.D.) that the Traditional Text dominated in a ratio of at least 3:1 in comparison to the Minority Text. He also noted that as time progressed, the Minority Text became less and less evident, so that from the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] century onwards, the Traditional Text became dominant.

The Received Text is very much the Traditional Text. Please note carefully that it was F. J. A. Hort (the enemy of the Received Text) who stated that :

“The fundamental Text of late extant Greek MSS. generally is beyond all question identical with the dominant Antiochian or Graeco-Syrian Text of the second half of the fourth century” (as quoted by Burgon in The Revision Revised, 1883, p. 257). Thus Dean Burgon could say in response: “The one great fact which especially troubles him and his joint editor (as well it may) is the Traditional Greek Text of the New Testament Scriptures. Call this text Erasmian or Complutensian, the text of Stephens, or of Beza, or of the Elzivirs; call it the ‘Received’ or the Traditional Greek Text, or whatever other name you please; the fact remains, that a text has come down to us which is attested by a general consensus of ancient copies, ancient Fathers, and ancient versions. This, at all events, is a point on which (happily) there exists entire conformity of opinion between Dr. Hort and ourselves. Our readers cannot have yet forgotten his virtual admission that beyond all question the Textus Receptus is the dominant Graeco-Syrian text of A.D. 350 to A.D. 400” (Ibid. p. 269).

According to objective manuscript evidence the Traditional Text is the Majority Text*, and it represents the original autographs. The Received Text may therefore be regarded as the standard of comparison for all manuscripts:

And what standard more reasonable and more convenient than the Text which, by the good providence of GOD, was universally employed throughout Europe for the first 300 years after the invention of printing? Being practically identical with the Text which... was in popular use at the end of three centuries from the date of the sacred autographs themselves; in other words, being more than 1500 years old [which was also thus confirmed by Bishop Ellicott, who was opposing Burgon]... The manuscripts which Erasmus used differ for the most part only in small and insignificant details from the bulk of the cursive manuscripts. The general character of their text is the same. By this observation the pedigree of the Received Text is carried up beyond the individual manuscripts used by Erasmus... That pedigree stretches back to a remote antiquity. The first ancestor of the Received Text was at least contemporary with the oldest of our extant manuscripts, if not older than any of them. [Burgon then addressed Bp. Ellicott] By your own showing therefore, the Textus Receptus is ‘at least’ 1550 years old. (The Revision Revised, pp. 386,390).

The big difference between the two groups was the W& H made a fanciful claim that the Received Text was a “recension” (hence a corruption) but the text of Codex Vaticanus was a “pure “ text and represented the autographs. This conclusion was based upon only ONE CRITERION – the age of the manuscripts. However, there are seven criteria which determine the value of any manuscript. On the other hand, the conservative scholars correctly stated that because the Received Text was the dominant text, it truly represented the autographs. Furthermore there was absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the text had been tampered with or that any “recension” had been secretly fabricated.

Thus Frederick H. A. Scrivener – who wrote the textbook on textual criticism and was the leading textual scholar of the day – condemned the fanciful theory of W& H, but was ignored by most of the scholars (who were already committed to W &H). Burgon quoted from Scrivener as follows (pp. iv,v):

The following is PREBENDARY SCRIVENER'S recently published estimate of the System on which DRS.WESTCOTT AND HORT have constructed their “Revised Greek Text of the New Testament” (1881).—That System, the Chairman of the Revising Body (BISHOP ELLICOTT) has entirely adopted (see below, pp. 391 to 397), and made the basis of his Defence of THE REVISERS and their “New Greek Text.

(1.) “There is little hope for the stability of their imposing structure, if its foundations have been laid on the sandy ground of ingenious conjecture. And, since barely the smallest vestige of historical evidence has ever been alleged in support of the views of these accomplished Editors, their teaching must either be received as intuitively true, or dismissed from our consideration as precarious and even visionary.”

(2.) “DR. HORT'S System is entirely destitute of historical foundation.”

(3.) “We are compelled to repeat as emphatically as ever our strong conviction that the Hypothesis to whose proof he has devoted so many laborious years, is destitute not only of historical foundation, but of all probability, resulting from
the internal goodness of the Text which its adoption would force upon us.”

(4.) “ ‘We cannot doubt’ (says DR. HORT) ‘that S. Luke xxiii. 34 comes from an extraneous source.’ [Notes, p. 68.]—Nor can we, on our part, doubt,” (rejoins DR. SCRIVENER,) “that the System which entails such consequences is hopelessly self-condemned.” SCRIVENER'S “Plain Introduction,” &c. [ed. 1883]: pp. 531,537, 542, 604.

The Trinitarian Bible Society, which has printed probably millions of Bibles (either of the King James or replicas of the King James in other languages) has taken an unequivocal stand on the Received Text based upon solid scholarship. Here is what they say:

The Greek Text: The Society uses the form of the Greek text of the New Testament known as the Textus Receptus or Received Text. This is the text which underlies the New Testament of the Authorised Version and the other Reformation translations. It is a faithful representation of the text which the church in different parts of the world has used for centuries. It is the result of the textual studies of conservative scholars during the years both before and after the Reformation, and represents for the most part over 5,000 available Greek manuscripts. The Society believes this text is superior to the texts used by the United Bible Societies and other Bible publishers, which texts have as their basis a relatively few seriously defective manuscripts from the 4th century and which have been compiled using 20th century rationalistic principles of scholarship.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,447
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#2
Some honest answers for honest questions Part II


2. Were the printed editions of the Greek text during the Reformation basically all the same and did they represent the Received Text?

You will frequently read a derisive comment about how poor old Erasmus had only seven manuscripts at his disposal and the King James translators were stuck with the printed Greek text of Erasmus. Well that is all part of the propaganda to tear down the TR and the AV (KJB) and elevate the critical texts (which are all basically the same, whether Westcott & Hort, Nestle, Nestle-Aland, or United Bible Societies).

Early printed editions of the Greek NT began with the Complutensian Polyglott (1514), and continued with Erasmus (1516), Stephens (the 1550 edition adopting the text of Erasmus’ 5[SUP]th[/SUP] edition), Beza (1556-1611), and the Elzevir brothers (1624-1633). The variations within these texts are extremely minor (from 9 -150). Each of these printed editions went through several editions, and were continuously improved where needed, but they were all essentially the same.

The AV translators were familiar with and consulted almost all these printed editions (those of the Elzevirs came later) as well as all the existing translations. The Latin term “Textus Receptus” is derived from the Elzivirs’ 1624 edition which stated in the Preface:textum ergo habes nunc ab omnibus receptum, in quo nihil immulatum aut corruptum damus”, translated "You have therefore the text now received by all, in which we give nothing changed or corrupt".

Even though the term “Textus Receptus” was applied to the Elzevirs’ edition, for all practical purposes the Received Text for the New Testament in the Authorized Version is that of Stephens (Robertus Stephanus). As noted by Scrivener in his Plain Introduction (Vol. 2, pp. 188-192),

The editions of Robert Stephen(Estienne) mainly by reason of their exquisite beauty, have exercised a far wider influence than these [other texts], and Stephens’ third or folio edition of 1550 is by many regarded as the received or standard text ... the edition of 1550 was a foundation on which others might hereafter build, and was unquestionably of great use in directing the attention of students to the authorities on which alone the true text of Scripture is based...”

Berry’s Interlinear Greek-English New Testament (1897/1978), states that “The Greek text is that of Stephens, 1550, which has long been in common use; but as the edition of Elzivir, 1624, is the one often called the Received Text, or Textus Receptus... we give the readings of this Elzivir edition in the notes, and mark them E... In the main they are one and the same; and either of them may be referred to as the Textus Receptus.(Introduction, p. ii).

Since the KJV translators has a wealth of materials to work with, their translation had minor variations from that of Stephanus. These variations were therefore incorporated by Scrivener into his Textus Receptus of 1894. For all intents and purposes, both these texts are identical.

After reading this, Christians who are open to the truth should be able to see why many Christians reject modern Bible versions, and continue to use the King James Bible, regardless of mockery or the opinions of scholars, and their seriously flawed ideas about the Bible, and its preservation through the traditional texts.

*A word of caution to those who may have heard of “The Majority Text” produced by Hodges & Farstad recently. It is not a true Majority Text, since these men did not actually and personally collate the majority of existing Greek manuscripts, the ancient versions, the writings of the Early Church Fathers, and the Lectionaries of the Eastern Orthodox Church. It varies from the Received Text in over 1,000 places, and while some of them may not be of great significance, this text cannot be honestly termed “The Majority Text”.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,890
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#3
Does the Received Text (TR for Textus Receptus) of the New Testament
truly represent the autographs (original inspired manuscripts)?
Are we in possession of any original inspired manuscripts?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,447
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#4
Are we in possession of any original inspired manuscripts?
No. But we are in possession of faithful copies, of copies, of copies. One of the best examples of the Divine Preservation of Scripture is the Isaiah scroll (dated c. 200 BC) which was found with the Dead Sea Scrolls. When compared with the Isaiah in the Masoretic Text (date c. 900 AD), they were found to be almost identical. Also the writings of the Early Church Fathers (particularly the Apostolic Fathers) as well as the lectionaries (lesson books) of the Greek Orthodox Church date back to a very early period, and represent what would have been in the autographs. The apostolic churches also had copies of copies, and Peter would have read copies of all of Paul's epistles, which he equated with Scripture.
 
Feb 5, 2017
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#5
The questions are:

Are men capable of tampering with things?
Have they ever tampered with history?
Have they ever tampered with things for political means?
Have they ever tampered with things subjectively rather than objectively?
Has violence or labelling of heresy ever been used in that tampering?

I'm very much interested in what is deemed old and original. One of the most interesting texts I have ever read was the Nag Hammadi scriptures, very mind opening. Although because this is deemed as heretical, I can't say that the Jesus in there is the real Jesus. My 'reason' for looking further, was that I really really thought, there must be MORE recordings of Jesus out there, because to me, the recordings of Jesus in the Bible seemed to be missing things. Focusing on Jesus lead me to read these scriptures.

Do we ever look at our inner belief, and take it apart, down to the root, and ask ourself where it came from? Because most people think that it came from themselves, or from self-created faith (unwillingness to question)

I would say that being a questioning person is of God. But Man will probably instruct different. If God is real, then we should be allowed to question anything written on God or inspired by God, so that we can further see that God is real, albeit maybe not so much in the way that we are instructed to believe.

It is the sheer level of hypocrisy within religion that makes me stand back and question things. Call it discernment.
 
Apr 23, 2017
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#6
hi nehemiah. u seem studied on this subject u see...... i have heard some say that westcott or hort were into occultism is this true or just slander?????
 

FlSnookman7

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,125
135
63
#7
The questions are:

Are men capable of tampering with things?
Have they ever tampered with history?
Have they ever tampered with things for political means?
Have they ever tampered with things subjectively rather than objectively?
Has violence or labelling of heresy ever been used in that tampering?

I'm very much interested in what is deemed old and original. One of the most interesting texts I have ever read was the Nag Hammadi scriptures, very mind opening. Although because this is deemed as heretical, I can't say that the Jesus in there is the real Jesus. My 'reason' for looking further, was that I really really thought, there must be MORE recordings of Jesus out there, because to me, the recordings of Jesus in the Bible seemed to be missing things. Focusing on Jesus lead me to read these scriptures.

Do we ever look at our inner belief, and take it apart, down to the root, and ask ourself where it came from? Because most people think that it came from themselves, or from self-created faith (unwillingness to question)

I would say that being a questioning person is of God. But Man will probably instruct different. If God is real, then we should be allowed to question anything written on God or inspired by God, so that we can further see that God is real, albeit maybe not so much in the way that we are instructed to believe.

It is the sheer level of hypocrisy within religion that makes me stand back and question things. Call it discernment.
I really and truly will be praying that God shows you He is real in the coming weeks. I am not putting you down as I once had the same issues with religion. Now I know that religion is a toxic faith and the Jesus wants a personal one on one relationship with me and He wants one with you as well.
 
Dec 21, 2012
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#8
The questions are:

Are men capable of tampering with things?
Have they ever tampered with history?
Have they ever tampered with things for political means?
Have they ever tampered with things subjectively rather than objectively?
Has violence or labelling of heresy ever been used in that tampering?

I'm very much interested in what is deemed old and original. One of the most interesting texts I have ever read was the Nag Hammadi scriptures, very mind opening. Although because this is deemed as heretical, I can't say that the Jesus in there is the real Jesus. My 'reason' for looking further, was that I really really thought, there must be MORE recordings of Jesus out there, because to me, the recordings of Jesus in the Bible seemed to be missing things. Focusing on Jesus lead me to read these scriptures.

Do we ever look at our inner belief, and take it apart, down to the root, and ask ourself where it came from? Because most people think that it came from themselves, or from self-created faith (unwillingness to question)

I would say that being a questioning person is of God. But Man will probably instruct different. If God is real, then we should be allowed to question anything written on God or inspired by God, so that we can further see that God is real, albeit maybe not so much in the way that we are instructed to believe.

It is the sheer level of hypocrisy within religion that makes me stand back and question things. Call it discernment.
Since scripture testified of Jesus Christ ( John 5:39-40 ) so that you would come to Him for life and thus getting to know Him is how you can find your rest in Him ( Matthew 11:28-30 ) as this is a work of the Father in revealing His Son to you ( Matthew 11:25-27 ) then it stands to reasons that God wants you to know Him personally & not just have eternal life by believing in Him.

From the Father, Jesus warned believers that those who do not love Him will not keep His words ( John 14:24 ) whereas those who do would keep His words ( John 14:23 ) and those who love Him will also keep the sayings of His disciples ( john 15:20 )

So there will be tampering by men that do not love Him, BUT He did say that there will be believers that loved Him to keep His words.

Since no lie can be of the truth as scripture cannot go against scripture, then when John 16:13 in ALL Bibles testify that the Holy Spirit cannot use tongues to utter His own intercessions when He cannot speak on His own accord but speaks what He hears, and yet in ALL modern Bibles, Romans 8:26-27 testify to the contrary BUT ONLY the KJV has it right in that His intercessions are unspeakable to such a point that even His groaning cannot be uttered which is why Another is needed that knows the mind of the Spirit to give the Spirit's unspoken intercessions for Him to the Father as this "he" is the same One that searches our hearts ( Hebrews 4:12-16 ) Whom is the Son of God, the Lord Jesus Christ, the only Mediator between God & men. 1 Timothy 2:3

So I know that the KJV is the one to rely on for the meats of His words as we are to rely on Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd to help us understand and apply His words of the KJV to discern good & evil by the meats of His words ( His actual meaning ).

But this is something only Jesus can confirm to you.

1 Thessalonians 5:[SUP]21 [/SUP]Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Abstain from all appearance of evil. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Brethren, pray for us.

James 1:[SUP]5 [/SUP]If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. [SUP]6 [/SUP]But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. [SUP]8 [/SUP]A double minded man is unstable in all his ways

Hebrews 4:[SUP]12 [/SUP]For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

So when Jesus said this;

John 5:[SUP]39 [/SUP]Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. [SUP]40 [/SUP]And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Since the Nag Hammadi scriptures are not in the accepted scripture in the Bible, then I ask you where does the Nag Hammadi scripture point you to? To place all your hope on Jesus or back on yourself which is what religion is.... of what man can do?

If the latter, then you should know why it is not in the KJV or any of the other modern but yet corrupted Bibles for that matter.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,666
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#9
since we don't actually have any autographs, what makes predominance any less flimsy than age in terms of evidence that one text or another most closely matches the autographs?
 
Dec 21, 2012
2,901
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#10
since we don't actually have any autographs, what makes predominance any less flimsy than age in terms of evidence that one text or another most closely matches the autographs?
Since age is not evidence of the best reliable manuscripts, then the truth maintained in the scriptures should be as no lie can be of the truth when scripture cannot go against scripture.

John 16:13 in ALL Bibles testify that the Holy Spirit cannot use tongues for His own personal use in uttering His own intercessions. He can only speak what He hears. He cannot speak on His own accord.

When Romans 8:26-27 in all modern Bibles testify to the contrary of what they have John 16:13 testifying of, and yet the KJV maintains the truth in scripture in that not even the groaning of the Holy Spirit cannot be uttered, thus the need for Another Whom is the "he" that knows the mind of the Spirit as this is the same "he" that searches our hearts as being the Son of God as confirmed in Hebrews 4:12-16.

So regardless of age, when the KJV maintains the truth of John 16:13 in Romans 8:26-27 whereas all modern Bibles do not, then it stands to reason that those who love His words would prefer the truth of His words in the Bible that loved Him enough to keep His words.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,666
13,128
113
#11
Since age is not evidence of the best reliable manuscripts, then the truth maintained in the scriptures should be as no lie can be of the truth when scripture cannot go against scripture.

John 16:13 in ALL Bibles testify that the Holy Spirit cannot use tongues for His own personal use in uttering His own intercessions. He can only speak what He hears. He cannot speak on His own accord.

When Romans 8:26-27 in all modern Bibles testify to the contrary of what they have John 16:13 testifying of, and yet the KJV maintains the truth in scripture in that not even the groaning of the Holy Spirit cannot be uttered, thus the need for Another Whom is the "he" that knows the mind of the Spirit as this is the same "he" that searches our hearts as being the Son of God as confirmed in Hebrews 4:12-16.

So regardless of age, when the KJV maintains the truth of John 16:13 in Romans 8:26-27 whereas all modern Bibles do not, then it stands to reason that those who love His words would prefer the truth of His words in the Bible that loved Him enough to keep His words.
i don't know what you're talking about.

Romans 8:26-27 in NIV for example reads that "
the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with wordless groans"

which seems to be pretty clearly saying that it's the Spirit interceding for us, not for Himself, and this is "
wordless" so definitely not a passage about speaking in tongues.

i.e. it is identical in meaning to the KJV. to me it seems like you have to deliberately twist and misinterpret the NIV here with the singular purpose in mind of discrediting it in order to make it transmute a meaning any different at all from the same verses as read in the Elizabethan English translation.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,666
13,128
113
#12
seriously

how can you make

the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.

mean anything different than

the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

???


they sure seem to me to transmit identical meaning. but maybe that's just the Spirit revealing the Truth in me??
without the Spirit it doesn't matter if you're reading Tyndale or the ingredient list on a packet of crisps.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,447
12,932
113
#13
since we don't actually have any autographs, what makes predominance any less flimsy than age in terms of evidence that one text or another most closely matches the autographs?
Well the answer is rather simple. True Christians from the very beginning were taught and understood that the Scriptures were "sacred". In other words they were to be treated with reverence and respect as the very Word of God. At the time of the apostles, not only were the Scriptures being circulated in all the apostolic churches, but they were being faithfully copied and reproduced throughout the Roman Empire. Christians were handling the Word of God which had warnings in it to neither add to nor subtract from Scripture.

Also some apostles and missionaries traveled well beyond the Roman Empire, taking the Scriptures with them. There was a solid tradition of Hebrew scribes meticulously copying the Torah from the time of Moses, and the rest of the Old Testament until the time of the Masoretes. There was also a solid tradition in the monasteries of faithfully copying the Scriptures.

So over a LONG PERIOD of time and over a WIDE GEOGRAPHICAL AREA the same Scriptures were used either in Greek or in other languages, such as Syriac, Old Latin etc. Furthermore Scripture was being quoted in the writings of the Apostolic Fathers and the Early Church Fathers, and Scriptures were being placed within the church Lectionaries of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

So when you have general agreement in 95-99% of all these "witnesses" to the true Bible, and you have 1-5% seriously deviating from them, it is just like in a court of law. The predominance of witnesses agreeing to a certain event would mean that those whose witness deviated from their accounts would be suspect. And that is the case with the "Minority Text". The fact that Alexandria -- a hotbed of Gnosticism -- was involved with deviant manuscripts is recognized by scholars and must be taken into account.

But indeed the principle involved in the foregoing remarks admits of being far more broadly stated. It even stands to reason that we may safely reject any reading which, out of the whole body of available authorities,—Manuscripts, Versions, Fathers,—finds support nowhere save in one and the same little handful of suspicious documents. For we resolutely maintain, that external Evidence must after all be our best, our only safe guide; and (to come to the point) we refuse to throw in our lot with those who, disregarding the witness of every other known Codex—every other Version—every other available Ecclesiastical Writer,—insist on following the dictates of a little group of authorities, of which nothing whatever is known with so much certainty as that often, when they concur exclusively, it is to mislead. We speak of codices Aleph B or or D; the IXth-century codex L, and such cursives50 as 13 or 33; a few copies of the old Latin and one of the Egyptian versions: perhaps Origen.—Not theory therefore:—not prejudice:—not conjecture:—not unproved assertion:—not any single codex, and certainly not codex B:—not an imaginary “Antiochene Recension” of another imaginary “Pre-Syrian Text:”—not antecedent fancies about the affinity of documents:—neither “the [purely arbitrary] method of genealogy,”...

We deem it even axiomatic, that, in every case of doubt or difficulty—supposed or real—our critical method must be the same: namely, after patiently collecting all the available evidence, then, without partiality or prejudice, to adjudicate between the conflicting authorities, and loyally to accept that verdict for which there is clearly the preponderating evidence. The best supported Reading, in other words, must always be held to be the true Reading: and nothing may be rejected from the commonly received Text, except on evidence which shall clearly outweigh the evidence for retaining it. We are glad to know that, so far at least, we once had Bp. Ellicott with us. He announced (in 1870) that the best way of proceeding with the work of Revision is, “to make the Textus Receptus the standard,—departing from it only when critical or grammatical considerations show that it is clearly necessary.”51 We ourselves mean no more. Whenever the evidence is about evenly balanced, few it is hoped will deny that the Text which has been “in possession” for three centuries and a half, and which rests on infinitely better manuscript evidence than that of any ancient work which can be named,—should, for every reason, be let alone.
(Burgon, The Revision Revised, pp.19-21).
 
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Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,447
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#14
hi nehemiah. u seem studied on this subject u see...... i have heard some say that westcott or hort were into occultism is this true or just slander?????
Hort's son wrote The Life and Letters of F J A Hort. He did mention Hort's participation in the occult. I will check that out and provide more information.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,447
12,932
113
#15
hi nehemiah. u seem studied on this subject u see...... i have heard some say that westcott or hort were into occultism is this true or just slander?????
This is not slander but fact. I am quoting below:

From Life and Letters of Fenton John Anthony Hort by his son Arthur Fenton Hort

...Yet he found time to attend the meetings of various societies, and in June joined the mysterious company of the Apostles. The first paper which he contributed was on the subject Might is Right... He remained always a grateful and loyal member of the secret Club, which has now become famous for the number of distinguished men who have belonged to it. In his time the Club was in a manner reinvigorated, and he was mainly responsible for the wording of the oath which binds the members to a conspiracy of silence...

Two other societies of widely different aims were started in this same year, in both of which Hort seems to have been the moving spirit ; one a small club formed for the practice of choral music, the other called by its members the Ghostly Guild the object of which was to collect and classify authenticated instances of what are now called psychical phenomena for which purpose an elaborate schedule of questions was issued. The Bogie Club, as scoffers called it, aroused a certain amount of derision, and even some alarm; it was apparently born too soon.

“Westcott, Gorham, C. B. Scott, Benson, Bradshaw, Luard, etc., and I have started a society for the investigation of ghosts and all supernatural appearances and effects, being all disposed to believe that such things really exist, and ought to be discriminated from hoaxes and mere subjective delusions; we shall be happy to obtain any good accounts well authenticated with names... our own temporary name is the Ghostly Guild. (p. 211)

“...I had no idea till the last few weeks of the importance of texts, having read so little Greek Testament, and dragged on with the villainous Textus Receptus... Think of that vile Textus Receptus leaning entirely on late MSS.; it is a blessing there are such early ones... . . (p.211)
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#16
This is not slander but fact. I am quoting below:

From Life and Letters of Fenton John Anthony Hort by his son Arthur Fenton Hort

...Yet he found time to attend the meetings of various societies, and in June joined the mysterious company of the Apostles. The first paper which he contributed was on the subject Might is Right... He remained always a grateful and loyal member of the secret Club, which has now become famous for the number of distinguished men who have belonged to it. In his time the Club was in a manner reinvigorated, and he was mainly responsible for the wording of the oath which binds the members to a conspiracy of silence...

Two other societies of widely different aims were started in this same year, in both of which Hort seems to have been the moving spirit ; one a small club formed for the practice of choral music, the other called by its members the Ghostly Guild the object of which was to collect and classify authenticated instances of what are now called psychical phenomena for which purpose an elaborate schedule of questions was issued. The Bogie Club, as scoffers called it, aroused a certain amount of derision, and even some alarm; it was apparently born too soon.

“Westcott, Gorham, C. B. Scott, Benson, Bradshaw, Luard, etc., and I have started a society for the investigation of ghosts and all supernatural appearances and effects, being all disposed to believe that such things really exist, and ought to be discriminated from hoaxes and mere subjective delusions; we shall be happy to obtain any good accounts well authenticated with names... our own temporary name is the Ghostly Guild. (p. 211)

“...I had no idea till the last few weeks of the importance of texts, having read so little Greek Testament, and dragged on with the villainous Textus Receptus... Think of that vile Textus Receptus leaning entirely on late MSS.; it is a blessing there are such early ones... . . (p.211)
And Erasmus dedicated Textus Receptus to pope and was a Roman Catholic priest, performing mass,idolatry etc.

I do not think it is better... We should rather judge their work, because nobody is perfect and everybody can be attacked in many various ways, if somebody wants to do it.

BTW, I do not use neither Hort, nor Erasmus text. I am just showing that everyone can be put to a mud.
 
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Dec 21, 2012
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#17
i don't know what you're talking about.

Romans 8:26-27 in NIV for example reads that "
the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with wordless groans"

which seems to be pretty clearly saying that it's the Spirit interceding for us, not for Himself, and this is "
wordless" so definitely not a passage about speaking in tongues.

i.e. it is identical in meaning to the KJV. to me it seems like you have to deliberately twist and misinterpret the NIV here with the singular purpose in mind of discrediting it in order to make it transmute a meaning any different at all from the same verses as read in the Elizabethan English translation.
The irony is that some believers see Romans 8:26-27 as saying the same thing in the KJV but as testifying to tongues without interpretation as vain & profane babbling nonsense.

Romans 8:[SUP]26 [/SUP]In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. [SUP]27 [/SUP]And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God. NIV

Do note the grammatical error in verse 27. How can the "he" that is separate from us in searching our hearts and separate from the Spirit in knowing the mind of the Spirit, conclude as the Spirit?

In any event, because Romans 8:26 implies that sounds are being made here and can be heard as any sighing or groaning can be heard, believers have applied it to tongues which comes with no interpretation.

But in that same NIV Bible, the Holy Spirit CANNOT speak for Himself and so He cannot even utter His sighing or His groaning.

John 16:[SUP]13 [/SUP]But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.



[SUB][SUP]
[/SUP][/SUB]
 
Dec 21, 2012
2,901
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#18
seriously

how can you make

the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.

mean anything different than

the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

???


they sure seem to me to transmit identical meaning. but maybe that's just the Spirit revealing the Truth in me??
without the Spirit it doesn't matter if you're reading Tyndale or the ingredient list on a packet of crisps.
Believers that use tongues without interpretation as believing it to be a prayer language of the Holy Spirit has done it.

Note the difference between the two in your quote.

One has it where you can hear the groans even though they are wordless.

The other testified that NOT even His groaning can be uttered; hence no sound at all.
 
Dec 21, 2012
2,901
39
0
#19
This is not slander but fact. I am quoting below:

From Life and Letters of Fenton John Anthony Hort by his son Arthur Fenton Hort

...Yet he found time to attend the meetings of various societies, and in June joined the mysterious company of the Apostles. The first paper which he contributed was on the subject Might is Right... He remained always a grateful and loyal member of the secret Club, which has now become famous for the number of distinguished men who have belonged to it. In his time the Club was in a manner reinvigorated, and he was mainly responsible for the wording of the oath which binds the members to a conspiracy of silence...

Two other societies of widely different aims were started in this same year, in both of which Hort seems to have been the moving spirit ; one a small club formed for the practice of choral music, the other called by its members the Ghostly Guild the object of which was to collect and classify authenticated instances of what are now called psychical phenomena for which purpose an elaborate schedule of questions was issued. The Bogie Club, as scoffers called it, aroused a certain amount of derision, and even some alarm; it was apparently born too soon.

“Westcott, Gorham, C. B. Scott, Benson, Bradshaw, Luard, etc., and I have started a society for the investigation of ghosts and all supernatural appearances and effects, being all disposed to believe that such things really exist, and ought to be discriminated from hoaxes and mere subjective delusions; we shall be happy to obtain any good accounts well authenticated with names... our own temporary name is the Ghostly Guild. (p. 211)

“...I had no idea till the last few weeks of the importance of texts, having read so little Greek Testament, and dragged on with the villainous Textus Receptus... Think of that vile Textus Receptus leaning entirely on late MSS.; it is a blessing there are such early ones... . . (p.211)
It should be no wonder why Romans 8:26 is read as if one was attending a seance ... through wordless groans. Definitely see how extracurricular activity can influence a person(s) in the favoring of the Alexander manuscripts from which the NIV was translated from.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,666
13,128
113
#20

In any event, because Romans 8:26 implies that sounds are being made here and can be heard as any sighing or groaning can be heard, believers have applied it to tongues which comes with no interpretation.

i wholly agree that this is not a passage that justifies glossolalia in any wise. in fact it's a passage i often point to whenever i'm involved in discussions about speaking in '
unknown tongues' and 'praying in the spirit' etc.

but i must point out that groanings "
which cannot be uttered" are clearly not vocalizations -- they cannot be uttered. that's not any different in KJV than it is in ESV, NIV, ASV, etc.

as far as "
speaking for Himself" or "of His own accord" the NIV and ESV etc again don't seem to me to be saying anything fundamentally different than the KJV does - He intercedes on our behalf, and who is the Intercessor but Christ? so then why do you think the Spirit is saying something that originates anywhere but in Christ, just as scripture, in every language, testifies?

on your other point, it is the Lord that searches the heart ((Jeremiah 17:10)) etc -- and the KJV doesn't say anything different than what you're saying is heretical in other translations:

And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
(Romans 8:27, AKJV)​

how is it the KJV is saying anything different than other English-language versions are saying here? i'm still not seeing anything but interpretive bias. if that's an intentional Satanic "
grammatical error" in NIV, it's exactly the same one in KJV, ain't it?


 
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