Some honest answers for honest questions Part I

[Nehemiah6]

And Erasmus dedicated Textus Receptus to pope and was a Roman Catholic priest, performing mass,idolatry etc.

It is QUITE IMMATERIAL as to whom any book is dedicated to. We are to focus on the contents, and Erasmus had only one goal in mind -- a printed Greek text of the New Testament. But Erasmus is only one of a number of scholars who continued working on the printed Greek New Testament. Eventually it was the 1550 edition of Robertus Stephanus which became the Received Text.

I do not think it is better...

Opinions don't count (as Burgon pointed out in the quotation I have provided earlier). It is the actual evidence which establishes the true text. It was because of Hort's TOTALLY BIASED AND UNJUSTIFIED OPINION about the Received Text (as also quoted above) which ultimately led to the corrupt Greek Text of 1881. As Scrivener pointed out (also quoted above) Westcott & Hort had absolutely no historical evidence for their attack on the Received Text.

BTW, I do not use neither Hort, nor Erasmus text...

Well let's say you use the United Bible Societies text. Do you know that it is simply a replica of the text of Westcott & Hort? I could quote numerous passages to prove this.

 

[Enow]

i wholly agree that this is not a passage that justifies glossolalia in any wise. in fact it's a passage i often point to whenever i'm involved in discussions about speaking in 'unknown tongues' and 'praying in the spirit' etc.

Then you agree that tongue speakers do use that reference to justify using tongues as a prayer language?

but i must point out that groanings "

which cannot be uttered" are clearly not vocalizations -- they cannot be uttered. that's not any different in KJV than it is in ESV, NIV, ASV, etc.

Look at it again.

Romans 8:[SUP]26 [/SUP]In the same way the Spirit [comes to us and] helps us in our weakness. We do not know what prayer to offer or how to offer it as we should, but the Spirit Himself [knows our need and at the right time] intercedes on our behalf with sighs and groanings too deep for words. AMP

His intercessions are heard with sighs and groans in the AMP.

Romans 8:Romans 8:26[SUP] [/SUP]In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. NIV

His intercessions are heard through wordless groans in the NIV.

Romans 8:[SUP]26 [/SUP]Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. ESV

His intercessions are heard through groanings too deep for words.

Surprisingly enough the ASV does maintain which cannot be uttered hence no sound at all albeit, switching out "itself" with Himself thus alluding that He actually gives His own intercessions.

Romans 8:[SUP]26 [/SUP]And in like manner the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered; ASV

The use of "itself" testifies to the Spirit making intercessions on our behalf but INDIRECTLY and not DIRECTLY since He relies on the Son to know the mind of the Spirit to give His intercessions to the Father for the Spirit. That is why there is no illusion in the KJV maintaining "itself".

Romans 8:[SUP]26 [/SUP]Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. KJV

as far as "

speaking for Himself" or "of His own accord" the NIV and ESV etc again don't seem to me to be saying anything fundamentally different than the KJV does - He intercedes on our behalf, and who is the Intercessor but Christ? so then why do you think the Spirit is saying something that originates anywhere but in Christ, just as scripture, in every language, testifies?

That is the point. John 16:13 testifies in ALL Bibles that the Holy Spirit CANNOT use God's gift of tongues for uttering His own intercessions, but can only speak what He hears to prove in whatever modern bible you are using that Romans 8:26-27 is giving a wrong testimony.

on your other point, it is the Lord that searches the heart ((Jeremiah 17:10)) etc -- and the KJV doesn't say anything different than what you're saying is heretical in other translations:

And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
(Romans 8:27, AKJV)​

how is it the KJV is saying anything different than other English-language versions are saying here? i'm still not seeing anything but interpretive bias. if that's an intentional Satanic "

grammatical error" in NIV, it's exactly the same one in KJV, ain't it?

Nope. The KJV & the ASV maintains the pronoun "he" while the NIV switched the "he" out with "the Spirit" in creating that grammatical error.

Romans 8:[SUP]27 [/SUP]And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. KJV

Romans 8:[SUP]27 [/SUP]And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God. NIV

How can the he that searches our hearts and knows the mind of the Spirit, conclude as being the Spirit? Thus a grammatical error.[SUB][SUP]
[/SUP][/SUB]

 

[posthuman]

sorry upon re-reading i think i was misunderstanding you Enow

but "groanings that can't be uttered" ((KJV)) and "too deep for words" ((ESV)) and "wordless groans" ((NIV)) and "inexpressible groanings" ((Berean)) and "unspoken groanings" ((HCB)) all seem to me to be saying exactly the same thing -- and none of it vocalization. Paul isn't talking about vocalization, he's talking about spiritual intercession when we don't know how we ought to pray.

even if it were vocalization, because we know that Christ is the Intercessor, the Spirit speaking on behalf of Christ is not contradicting John 16:13.

i think you'll find that there are still plenty of people that look at this in AKJV and still think it can be used to justify forced, incomprehensible human noise as a form of prayer. there doesn't seem to me to be anything nefarious in translation going on here -- i really think you have to look at a translation with the express intent of trying to interpret it heretically ((which is pretty much always the case with KJV-only-ists, ain't it?)) in order to draw those conclusions.

anyone know the stats on tongues-only-ism correlated with kjv-only-ism? without doing any research, i suspect that there is a predominance of crossover in the camps.

regarding v. 27, i may have also misread you - but it is clear from v. 26 that the Spirit intercedes, and it is clear from more than one place, but from Romans 8:34, quite nearby, that Christ stands making intercession before the throne. so i don't see any issue there whether the "he" in the latter clause of 8:27 refers to the Spirit ((because expressly in 8:26, the Spirit intercedes)) or to the One who knows the heart -- in fact, "the One who searches/knows the heart" is identified as YHVH in Jeremiah as i put earlier, and also as Jesus Christ, for example in John 2:24 - what difference does it honestly make? are there many gods, or is God One God?

this really doesn't seem to me to be the "gotcha, HCSB is formed of wicked dung straight from the pits of hell but KJV is made of radiant light and angel's tears" thing it seems you may think it is, not at all. just calculated misinterpretation.

 

[Enow]

And Erasmus dedicated Textus Receptus to pope and was a Roman Catholic priest, performing mass,idolatry etc..

And yet changed none of the scriptures by which reproves the works of Catholicism for what it was in his day.

Apparently he feared God more than the disapproval of the RCC. We can only thank God for the miracle that we have His words to use as meats to discern good and evil by in these latter days.

 

[Nehemiah6]

And yet changed none of the scriptures by which reproves the works of Catholicism for what it was in his day.

Apparently he feared God more than the disapproval of the RCC. We can only thank God for the miracle that we have His words to use as meats to discern good and evil by in these latter days.

Quite right. People who speak derisively of Erasmus really know little about him, and the fact that he mocked the Cathoiic Church is his book In Praise of Folly. Not only was Erasmus a man of mighty intellect and stupendous labors, but he also associated exclusively with the Protestant Reformers. He may have been a Catholic nominally, but at heart he was a man of God.

 

[posthuman]

How can the he that searches our hearts and knows the mind of the Spirit, conclude as being the Spirit? Thus a grammatical error.

the NIV makes it clear that there is more than one "he" being referenced in verse 27:

In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
(Romans 8:26-27)​

do you assume there is only one person being spoken of when you read it in KJV? why or why not?

it says the same thing:

And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.(Romans 8:27 KJV)
​

the one that searches the heart is the Lord - in the first clause. the one who is being spoken of making intercession, in whatever translation, is the Spirit. that's very clearly stated: "the Spirit itself makes intercession" right before this passage. so what do you want that "he" to refer to? something other than the very subject Paul is writing about just a dozen words previous to "he" in v. 27?

all this is worthless argument over words anyway -- Romans was written in Greek. who does the Greek indicate is the subject of the clause closing out verse 27? that is, if common sense isn't sufficient? don't the grammatical rules themselves indicate that it's the Spirit?

or is the original language not as authoritative as the KJV? lol

 

[posthuman]

all this is worthless argument over words anyway -- Romans was written in Greek. who does the Greek indicate is the subject of the clause closing out verse 27? that is, if common sense isn't sufficient? don't the grammatical rules themselves indicate that it's the Spirit?

or is the original language not as authoritative as the KJV? lol

i made a new thread about this point, because i think we need some Greek authorities to settle the question, and because we seem to be pulling Nehemiah's thread off-topic from what he wanted it to be.

that thread is here:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/158241-greek-help-romans-8-27-a.html#post3282662

 

[Enow]

sorry upon re-reading i think i was misunderstanding you Enow

Bound to happen. I hope the Lord is ministering today as only He can cause the increase.

but "

groanings that can't be uttered" ((KJV)) and "too deep for words" ((ESV)) and "wordless groans" ((NIV)) and "inexpressible groanings" ((Berean)) and "unspoken groanings" ((HCB)) all seem to me to be saying exactly the same thing -- and none of it vocalization.

I can see the Berean and the HCB as saying the same as the KJV, but You would be hard pressed to prove otherwise to tongue speakers using the ESV and the NIV.

In fact, HCB maintains "itself" in keeping with the KJV. Wow. So there is another Bible besides the 1599 Geneva Bible ( if you excuse the errant marginal note ) saying the same thing as the KJV.

But the Berean ... is that the BRG Bible version at Bible Gateway? It kept Romans 8:26-27 as the KJV is, but...

HCB & the ASV switched out "itself" with "Himself" and so can give the illusion that the Holy Spirit is giving His own intercessions that He has made for us.... which He can't.

Paul isn't talking about vocalization, he's talking about spiritual intercession when we don't know how we ought to pray.

The correct Bible version KJV & BRG as far as Romans 8:26-27 is concern does not give any partiality for it to be taken as vocalization as far as hearing the sighing and the groanings, but you would be remiss in saying the ESV & the NIV & all the others don't.

even if it were vocalization, because we know that Christ is the Intercessor, the Spirit speaking on behalf of Christ is not contradicting John 16:13.

See? Now you have doubts. If the Holy Spirit has His own intercessions made for us, then they cannot be directly from Christ as Romans 8:26 testify, and yet in keeping with the truth in John 16:13, He cannot speak His own intercessions which is why Jesus has to know the mind of the Spirit to give His intercessions to the Father for the Spirit as Romans 8:27 testify in KJV & BRG

i think you'll find that there are still plenty of people that look at this in AKJV and still think it can be used to justify forced, incomprehensible human noise as a form of prayer.

There you go. If you can say that about the KJV, then they can say that about all modern Bibles, especially the ones that imply groanings being made to hear them.

The phrase "groanings which CANNOT be uttered" means what it says... no sound at all. You cannot even hear the groaning.

there doesn't seem to me to be anything nefarious in translation going on here -- i really think you have to look at a translation with the express intent of trying to interpret it heretically ((which is pretty much always the case with KJV-only-ists, ain't it?)) in order to draw those conclusions.

anyone know the stats on tongues-only-ism correlated with kjv-only-ism? without doing any research, i suspect that there is a predominance of crossover in the camps.

Well, which is it? You claim Paul is not saying vocalization and now you say it does.

regarding v. 27, i may have also misread you - but it is clear from v. 26 that the Spirit intercedes, and it is clear from more than one place, but from Romans 8:34, quite nearby, that Christ stands making intercession before the throne. so i don't see any issue there whether the "he" in the latter clause of 8:27 refers to the Spirit ((because expressly in 8:26, the Spirit intercedes)) or to the One who knows the heart -- in fact, "

the One who searches/knows the heart" is identified as YHVH in Jeremiah as i put earlier, and also as Jesus Christ, for example in John 2:24 - what difference does it honestly make? are there many gods, or is God One God?

There is a Triune God and the prayer system is set up in this way as to why Jesus is the only Mediator between God and men.

He alone at that throne of grace has to give our intercessions to the Father in searching our hearts and in giving His unspeakable intercessions by knowing the mind of the Spirit's and giving His own intercessions to the Father so that whenever the Father says "Yes, to any of these intercessions, ONLY the Son answers these prayers so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

John 14:[SUP]13 [/SUP]And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. [SUP]14 [/SUP]If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

The Holy Spirit will receive from the Son in giving to us, but the Holy Spirit will give the credit & the glory to Jesus Christ answering that prayer request.

John 16:[SUP]13 [/SUP]Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. [SUP]14 [/SUP]He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. [SUP]15 [/SUP]All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

this really doesn't seem to me to be the "

gotcha, HCSB is formed of wicked dung straight from the pits of hell but KJV is made of radiant light and angel's tears" thing it seems you may think it is, not at all. just calculated misinterpretation.

Let's put it in this way. Even now, you are not sure what the scripture says about how the Holy Spirit will vocalize His intercessions or not.

So while a lot of saved believers look to receive the Holy Spirit separate from salvation after a sign of tongues or look for another baptism of the Holy Spirit with evidence of tongues which both produce a tongue that NEVER comes with interpretation..... and so it is assumed it is a prayer language of the Holy Spirit or maybe it is self edification ... or a giving of thanks... or something else and YET NOT interpreted for that tongue to be fruitful even to the tongue speaker.... you are leaving them in confusion because you cannot say one way or another because of modern Bibles vs the KJV & BRG.

So there is an apostasy in the last days where believers are believing every spirit that comes over them, including when it brings tongues which does not come with interpretation, thus confusion as well as all those other events where they think they are receiving the Holy Spirit again and falling down because of it....and YET modern Bibles gives support for tongues to be used in that way as assuming the Holy Spirit is using it as praying back to God... when John 16:13 says He CANNOT do that at all for uttering His own intercessions.

So there is necessity for having the right Bible version because as it is, you are saying both right now, giving a plausibility for the Spirit to use tongues in uttering His supposedly unspeakable intercessions.

I have not checked with every thing the BRG has with the KJV to know if it continues to maintain the meat of His words to discern good & evil by, but I am sticking with the KJV.

 

[posthuman]

See? Now you have doubts. If the Holy Spirit has His own intercessions made for us, then they cannot be directly from Christ

i have no doubts. haven't you yourself been saying the Spirit doesn't speak for Himself, but what He hears? what's wrong with the Spirit hearing from Christ? doesn't Romans 8:27 say it is according to the will of God?
and more importantly - - doesn't Romans 8:26 say the Spirit makes intercession? are you contradicting that now?

Well, which is it? You claim Paul is not saying vocalization and now you say it does.

you seem to be using the same kind of willful misinterpretation tactic on me as you use with every non-KJV text ??

i said clearly it's not about vocalization, and i didn't say differently. what you quoted of me when you said this is me saying stating an hypothesis that tongues-only churches very frequently use the KJV.
the point being that i think you'd be hard-pressed to prove that abuse of tongues comes from not using KJV ((which is, i guess, your ultimate goal here, right?)) if i'm correct in that assumption, that many probably predominantly in fact do use KJV.

Let's put it in this way. Even now, you are not sure what the scripture says about how the Holy Spirit will vocalize His intercessions or not.

um, no, i am very sure, and i thought i had been very clear.

but you seem to me to be very clear about purposefully misinterpreting things you don't like, and, well, frankly, isn't that what you're doing to me right now?