Let's kill the anti-rhetoric concerning missions

[peacefulbeliever]

Oh no, more verse-ology!!!! Exegetical and contextual truth and interpretation has been destroyed, and all can choose their way into heaven all on their own!!!!!! No matter what Jesus said even!!!

Not.

Annnnnnddddd you avoid the entire context and to whom it applies. Jesus qualifies them in the previous verses, namely Matthew 11:25-27. But don't let the truth of context stop you, carry on in your disregard.

Maybe Jesus is talking about what people are being taught, i.e. John came neither eating or drinking yet they said "he hath a devil" . . . I came eating and drinking and they said "Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. . . . Jesus points out that Elijah was John which was prophesied to come. Neither behavior satisfied the religious Jews . . . Then he began to reprove the cities where most of his mighty works were done because they did not repent even after seeing these mighty works . . . these were the religious Jews - scribes and the Pharisees who taught "what to do" but did not "follow through" in their own behavior . . For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne and lay them on men's shoulders - all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments (Matt. 23:4,5). Jesus prays to his Father . . . thank you that you have hidden these things from the prudent and the wise - who were the prudent and the wise - the so-called scribes and Pharisees - but you have revealed them unto babes - aren't we to become as "little children"? Was it not God's pleasure to have it this way?
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 18:3)
But Jesus said, Suffer (permit, allow) little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 19:14) . . . apparently so . . .

IN CONTRAST to those who lay heavy burdens upon men: Jesus says - Come unto me all you that are heavy laden (with heavy burdens that are grievous to be borne laid upon your shoulders), I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and you shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

There's the context.

So did Jesus "really say"? - Come unto me . . . it seems he did. Do we REALLY have the choice to "come unto him"?

 

[Issachar92]

I am now Baptist Reformed. And even some Reformed friends accept my calling as a woman pastor, so, there is enough leeway for me to be able to serve God in the way he called me.

Bwahahaha. Im sorry. No way to take this seriously, God called you to disobey the clear teaching of the new testament? I think someone else is doing that.
But fear not, im sure the bible pundits are up in arms and ready to tell us why both of those places in 1 Corinthians and Timothy dont actually mean what they say.
Yea, hath God said?

 

[Depleted]

Hi Angela! Have no idea what "word faith" stuff means. Heck, I don't even know what "Armenianism" is, or even what they believe.

Really? And yet you still wrote a long post about "two sides" in a thread about those two sides?

 

[Depleted]

How many sinless folk do you know? I know no one who is sinless.

I'm no longer a slave to sin. Honestly? I thought Magenta was conceding we're either a slave to sin or a slave to God.

 

[Depleted]

I am soooo glad you brought this verse up. I have a blog and I easily dismantled Joshua 24:14,16

Here it is...

Notice in this picture how they have two paths to choose from? This is one example of the gross misapplying of the verse to free will. Man is already on the road to destruction, and does not have to do one thing to go to hell. Man does not come to the proverbial ‘fork in the road’ and choose option A or option B.

Now onto the issue at hand…

I don’t know the times I’ve heard this verse used and abused when used in conjunction with free will. Anytime ppl hear free will, they use this verse as one of their favorites. They’ll say, “it’s a free choice,” and “and as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” But’s lets delve deeper into this verse and see what it entails.

“But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.”

Ppl get hung up on the choose for yourselves whom you will serve and but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. Is that what that verse is really saying? Absolutely not. So, lets lay the context out for all to see and read for themselves and see which side is right.

In verse 2, Joshua tells them how God had called Abraham out from Ur, as he and his family worshiped other gods, in other words, they were pagan idol worshippers. He then told them how God had rescued them from Egypt(another pagan nation Israel was enslaved to) and even drowned Pharaoh and his army in the Red Sea. He then mentioned how God had delivered them from Amorites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hittites, Girgashites, Hivites and Jebusites. Then we come to verse 14 where Joshua said “Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your ancestors worshiped beyond the Euphrates River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord.” He, Joshua, instructed them to throw away the idols their ancestors worshiped(so they were also pagan idol worshipers, too). Then in verse 15 Joshua stated But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. So, Joshua is basically saying, If you think serving the Lord is not desirable for you, then choose the idols your fathers worshiped beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites. So, he is telling them to choose to serve idol A or idol B. He then said, But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Now, they did say they would not forsake the Lord, but Joshua said they were unable to serve Him[vs 19] then they said they would and he said “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen to serve the Lord.”[vs 22] and they replied “Yes, we are witnesses.”

But in reality, did they serve Him? No. As you can see that many times they fell into idolatry and killed many of God’s prophets, after this encounter with Joshua and his stern warning. “He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins. If you forsake the Lord and serve foreign gods, he will turn and bring disaster on you and make an end of you, after he has been good to you.” [vss19b,20] So, what this verse is really saying, is not that they could choose between serving God or Satan, but rather, choose from idol A, the gods their fathers served beyond the Euphrates, or idol B, the gods of the Amorites.

Not much to choose from, eh?

Wow! And I always took it to the obvious. God chose Joshua before Joshua even left Egypt. Joshua had 39 years of serving the Lord in the wilderness. At the beginning of that time-served, he was one of two men who scoped out the Promise Land and came back with favorable reports. AND out of all those who walked into the Wilderness, he was one of two chosen to walk out again, into that Promise Land. The dude WAS already saved/chosen by God. So, of course he will choose God. He stopped having that choice decades before.

Once God saves us, we're hooked. We can't go back, even if we try. So Joshua saying he and his house would serve the Lord? Duh now! He proved that for four decades and counting! He had Moses beat on time served for the Lord already, before he walked out of that wilderness.

About as stunning for him to say that as it was for Peter, John, Paul, etc. to say that. Not very stunning at all. This is what God does to his people.

I like yours better. More thorough!

 

[TruthTalk]

Didn't these same Jews already choose their way into heaven when they told Joshua they would follow him, just like they followed Moses?? Wonder what happened to that "free willy" decision since they were still following false idols and were rebuked for it in Joshua 24:15??? Looks like their decisional regeneration didn't take. Or something.

Yep I saw the same movie 10 times.......

 

[Depleted]

As we all seem to tend to do here, I think each side may be taking their distorted views WAY past what the other side is saying. I have never, ever heard ANYONE say their own decision is what causes regeneration.

Of course, I can't speak for everyone, but my view is that God is, basically, saying........ "I have decided that I do not want ANY to perish, so I am offering Salvation to every single person on the face of the Earth who will set aside their pride, and humble themselves to accept the free gift I am openly offering to the entire world."

"Yes, because I know the future, I already know which of you will refuse my offer.... but THAT, just like accepting my offer of Salvation, is a choice that I honestly HAVE given you to freely make."

"I have NOT, in any case, decreed that a certain portion of you must forever suffer in the fires of Hell, simply because you drew the short straw when you were born, and the ones who call themselves "reformed" got lucky."
***********
Now, of course, I don't expect many of you to accept that scene. But, it is the God I see shown to us all through the Bible.

To quote the one person you will listen to...

I think you'd have a better chance of being heard if you tried to reason with a tree stump. ☺

You don't reason. If you reasoned you would have taken on the answers to your "insight." (Really not a question nor insight, just a "pass this along and see if they bite. I'm not minding the fishing pole anyway.")

You don't reason. You blame. And once you blame on everyone else but you, (because even here you bypassed blame with "As we all seem to tend to do here, I think each side may be taking their distorted views WAY past what the other side is saying.") Then you simply throw out another ditty, (like once again talking about luck proving you really are into distorting your view WAY past what the other side is saying), and wander away.

Who is the tree stump? ☺

You invent a god you can put up with and then expect everyone else to agree, because it's your "view." And to make yourself look important you continue to lie about others.

I'll give you this, Willie. I don't think you're Arminian either. Then again, I also don't think you're a Christian. Haven't for a while. You don't talk the talk nor walk the walk. You spout modern-American middle-class Christianese. And, you're after the young to indoctrinate them into the same garbage.

I really do care about you, Willie, despite all that. But there is a reason your walk doesn't match your talk. You've picked a god that matches your desires. I will keep praying for you, keep after you, and keep on you as long as you let me, (the keep praying doesn't require your cooperation), but understand this. NO WAY am I sitting back while you try and raise another batch of modern-American, middle-class Christianese. I'd rather you be Arminian, because at least it's possible to be Christian and Arminian.

 

[Depleted]

I believe we all come to a "fork in the road" . . . . And we have to make a choice.

Yep . . . one can make it seem that the choice was between serving the "gods your ancestors served" or the "gods of the Amorites" but is that REALLY the choice? The gods beyond the Euphrates and the gods of the Amorites were the same, i.e. false gods. So the question is . . Whom will you serve? The one true God or false gods . . . that is the choice. Why else did Joshua make the point: "As for me and my house we will serve the LORD."

In order to rebel [be in opposition; rise in opposition or armed resistance to an established government or ruler:], one has to make a choice to rebel. Nope not much to choose from - the ONE TRUE GOD or false gods (idolatry).

There is also a choice set up in Deut. 30 - God sets before us life and death. He recommends that we choose life which is to love the Lord our God [first and great commandment] . . . obey his voice, cleave unto him [If ye love me, keep my commandments] - for he is our life . . . .

But in reality, did they serve Him? . . . no one served God perfectly except our Lord Jesus Christ.

If you were a child in Germany in the 1930s, would you have chosen to rebel against the government? If you lived in North Korea now, are you given a choice to rebel? As an American in 2017, have you even considered the possibility that we should be rebelling against our government? You are a woman. Have you ever made the choice to rebel against that? Did it even dawn on you that you could? So, why do you think people make a choice to rebel, when they're raised in the one constant throughout human history -- sin? We sin because we were born and raised as sinners in a sinful world.

It is true we could have considered rebelling against that. If it were not true, then God couldn't fault us for not knowing. So, when did you rebel against that? When did you take your stand? And why did you choose God?

Seriously, choosing God is a bigger decision than choosing a career, a home, or a car. When we chose those things we thought out the pros and cons of our decisions. We had to to make the right decision. Since choosing God is a decision you personally made, please tell me -- what were the pros and cons? How long did you think it out? What were your other choices?

Bigger than career, home, or car, so surely you remember your choice how you meticulously made that decision.

 

[Depleted]

So many seem to want to get back under the law, seemingly disregarding that Jesus' coming changed the whole world.... including how God now deals with man.

Yes, it was clearly written in the law of Moses that an adulterer was to be stoned.......... And if Jesus had been a man who read a law, and "that was it", that woman would have been stoned to death right there... no discussion about it..

But He was not such a man. He was the second Adam (our second chance). He told her accusers that the rigid verses they wanted to stand forever, had been altered by His coming, and that we were going to have to REPENT (change our minds) and accept that God really meant it when He had John 3:16, 17 written. That, "Whosoever", actually meant something to God.

Reason isn't involved here either.

 

[Depleted]

I am still blown away by that remark.

Who said "Come to me" in Matthew 11:28?

Cut and paste. Take partial Bible verses out of context, then skip other verses/chapters/books, all with the motivation to make a god you'd prefer.

Thomas Jefferson was able to do this too. Didn't make him a Christian.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Wow! And I always took it to the obvious. God chose Joshua before Joshua even left Egypt. Joshua had 39 years of serving the Lord in the wilderness. At the beginning of that time-served, he was one of two men who scoped out the Promise Land and came back with favorable reports. AND out of all those who walked into the Wilderness, he was one of two chosen to walk out again, into that Promise Land. The dude WAS already saved/chosen by God. So, of course he will choose God. He stopped having that choice decades before.

Once God saves us, we're hooked. We can't go back, even if we try. So Joshua saying he and his house would serve the Lord? Duh now! He proved that for four decades and counting! He had Moses beat on time served for the Lord already, before he walked out of that wilderness.

Why did Joshua even have to point out the fact that he and he house would serve the LORD then? Why did God have that section of scripture inspired to be placed there if Joshua had already proven who he was going to serve? Wouldn't the people have known that by his the way he lived his life? Did God choose Joshua for salvation or was it to carry out His plans and purposes? Apparently, he could have followed the way of idolatry just as others but he chose not to. You think that because someone is chosen to carry out God's purposes and plans, they can't fail . . . What about King Saul? "The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king" - chosen by God. (1 Sam. 15:1) God sent Saul and his army to "utterly destroy Amalek - all that they had" . . . "Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them . . .(15:3-9) Then came the word of the LORD unto Samuel, it repents me . . . (nacham - to be sorry, console oneself, repent, regret, comfort, be comforted; (Niphal) 1. to be sorry, be moved to pity, have compassion; to be sorry, rue, suffer grief, repent; to comfort oneself, be comforted; to comfort oneself, ease oneself) God was sorry, He regretted that He had set Saul up as king . . . and Saul even tried to pass the blame for his disobedience onto the people (15:15). That's just one instance of disobedience - Saul was all over the place in his relationship with God.

When God chose Moses to stand up to Pharaoh; did Moses immediately say "ok" because God chose him? Come therefore and I will send you unto Pharaoh so that you may bring my people out of Egypt . . . Who am I, that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt? . . . read the record, excuse after excuse . . . even after God showed him the miracles in Exodus 4:1-7; he responded - O my Lord, I am not eloquent, I am slow of speech and of a slow tongue and because Moses did not trust that God would be with him, the anger of the LORD was kindled against him and told him he could speak to Aaron then Aaron could speak to Pharaoh - Is not Aaron the Levite your brother? I know that he can speak well. Was Aaron God's choice or was Moses. See how God worked with Moses to achieve His plans and purposes?

About as stunning for him to say that as it was for Peter, John, Paul, etc. to say that. Not very stunning at all. This is what God does to his people.

I like yours better. More thorough!

The scriptures don't record each and every man that Jesus met as he traveled but only records those that responded to Jesus saying: "Follow me". I wonder how many men he passed along the way that he asked "Follow me" but they did not? Oh, never mind - The ones that chose not to follow him were not elect; those that followed him were part of the elect . . . IOW, God made them follow Jesus - it wasn't because they loved him and knew and believed him to be the Messiah.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

If you were a child in Germany in the 1930s, would you have chosen to rebel against the government? If you lived in North Korea now, are you given a choice to rebel? As an American in 2017, have you even considered the possibility that we should be rebelling against our government? You are a woman. Have you ever made the choice to rebel against that? Did it even dawn on you that you could?

#1 - I am not, nor ever have been a child in Germany in the 1930's - so I have no choice to make. BUT could I have rebelled against the government - if my family rebelled then I would have been involved in that rebellion and probably would have lost my life. But it is not even available for me to make that choice. Did Anne Frank rebel against communism?
#2 - North Korea - thank God I don't live there but if I felt wronged, I would stand up for what I believe, if confronted, even if it meant death. But I do not have to make that choice - it is not even available to me.
#3 - We have the choice to rebel against our government through a system (although faulty) called voting and/or by protesting.
#4 - Why would I want to rebel against being a woman? I have no reason to want to choose to rebel against being a woman. I like being a woman. Do I have a choice to rebel against the way women are treated? Of course I do.

So, why do you think people make a choice to rebel, when they're raised in the one constant throughout human history -- sin? We sin because we were born and raised as sinners in a sinful world.

It is true we could have considered rebelling against that. If it were not true, then God couldn't fault us for not knowing. So, when did you rebel against that? When did you take your stand? And why did you choose God?

Seriously, choosing God is a bigger decision than choosing a career, a home, or a car. When we chose those things we thought out the pros and cons of our decisions. We had to to make the right decision. Since choosing God is a decision you personally made, please tell me -- what were the pros and cons? How long did you think it out? What were your other choices?

Bigger than career, home, or car, so surely you remember your choice how you meticulously made that decision.

The one constant throughout the word of God - choose life; choose death. Once I come to know God through his word and he sets forth an option before me - I have to make a choice. I heard the gospel - How much God loved me that He sent his only begotten Son so that I could have eternal life. That Son shed his blood for the remission of my sins and God raised him from the dead. Hearing how I was supposed to live my life in regard to HOW I was living my life brought tremendous sorrow in my heart and led me to godly repentance so I made the choice then to repent of my sins, confess Jesus as Lord and I believed that God raised him from the dead . . . the biggest and best decision I ever made in my life. The only other choice I had was to remain in sin and death. It was a no brainer!

 

[NayborBear]

Really? And yet you still wrote a long post about "two sides" in a thread about those two sides?

Depleted? I just write from my experience/s concerning my spiritual journey/ings. And from interpreting the Bible with the best tools I've found. Religious Labels, or, Churchianity, is lost on me, as I find good parts, and bad parts from 'em all.

To me? If one is not actively striving to keep one's election assured? One is simply Playing church. Much akin to what the pharasee's were doing when Jesus arrived on the scene. In which I find very distasteful.

So, I was defining what these sides were without attaching any "churchianity" label to 'em? Cool!

Still dunno what this "word of faith" thing is, though? Never heard the term before.

 

[shrume]

...I have a blog and I easily dismantled Joshua 24:14,16

You dismantled it all right. To a state where it's unrecognizable.

 

[TruthTalk]

I am soooo glad you brought this verse up. I have a blog and I easily dismantled Joshua 24:14,16

Here it is...

Notice in this picture how they have two paths to choose from? This is one example of the gross misapplying of the verse to free will. Man is already on the road to destruction, and does not have to do one thing to go to hell. Man does not come to the proverbial ‘fork in the road’ and choose option A or option B.

Now onto the issue at hand…

I don’t know the times I’ve heard this verse used and abused when used in conjunction with free will. Anytime ppl hear free will, they use this verse as one of their favorites. They’ll say, “it’s a free choice,” and “and as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” But’s lets delve deeper into this verse and see what it entails.

“But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.”

Ppl get hung up on the choose for yourselves whom you will serve and but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. Is that what that verse is really saying? Absolutely not. So, lets lay the context out for all to see and read for themselves and see which side is right.

In verse 2, Joshua tells them how God had called Abraham out from Ur, as he and his family worshiped other gods, in other words, they were pagan idol worshippers. He then told them how God had rescued them from Egypt(another pagan nation Israel was enslaved to) and even drowned Pharaoh and his army in the Red Sea. He then mentioned how God had delivered them from Amorites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hittites, Girgashites, Hivites and Jebusites. Then we come to verse 14 where Joshua said “Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your ancestors worshiped beyond the Euphrates River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord.” He, Joshua, instructed them to throw away the idols their ancestors worshiped(so they were also pagan idol worshipers, too). Then in verse 15 Joshua stated But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. So, Joshua is basically saying, If you think serving the Lord is not desirable for you, then choose the idols your fathers worshiped beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites. So, he is telling them to choose to serve idol A or idol B. He then said, But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Now, they did say they would not forsake the Lord, but Joshua said they were unable to serve Him[vs 19] then they said they would and he said “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen to serve the Lord.”[vs 22] and they replied “Yes, we are witnesses.”

But in reality, did they serve Him? No. As you can see that many times they fell into idolatry and killed many of God’s prophets, after this encounter with Joshua and his stern warning. “He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins. If you forsake the Lord and serve foreign gods, he will turn and bring disaster on you and make an end of you, after he has been good to you.” [vss19b,20] So, what this verse is really saying, is not that they could choose between serving God or Satan, but rather, choose from idol A, the gods their fathers served beyond the Euphrates, or idol B, the gods of the Amorites.

Not much to choose from, eh?

Howdy SG, I have been following along in your thread and so far I am not clear on the issue of, "free will" I hope the dialog continues. Also can you post a link to your blog, I'll stop by and say howdy.......

 

[Depleted]

Why did Joshua even have to point out the fact that he and he house would serve the LORD then? Why did God have that section of scripture inspired to be placed there if Joshua had already proven who he was going to serve? Wouldn't the people have known that by his the way he lived his life? Did God choose Joshua for salvation or was it to carry out His plans and purposes? Apparently, he could have followed the way of idolatry just as others but he chose not to. You think that because someone is chosen to carry out God's purposes and plans, they can't fail . . . What about King Saul? "The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king" - chosen by God. (1 Sam. 15:1) God sent Saul and his army to "utterly destroy Amalek - all that they had" . . . "Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them . . .(15:3-9) Then came the word of the LORD unto Samuel, it repents me . . . (nacham - to be sorry, console oneself, repent, regret, comfort, be comforted; (Niphal) 1. to be sorry, be moved to pity, have compassion; to be sorry, rue, suffer grief, repent; to comfort oneself, be comforted; to comfort oneself, ease oneself) God was sorry, He regretted that He had set Saul up as king . . . and Saul even tried to pass the blame for his disobedience onto the people (15:15). That's just one instance of disobedience - Saul was all over the place in his relationship with God.

When God chose Moses to stand up to Pharaoh; did Moses immediately say "ok" because God chose him? Come therefore and I will send you unto Pharaoh so that you may bring my people out of Egypt . . . Who am I, that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt? . . . read the record, excuse after excuse . . . even after God showed him the miracles in Exodus 4:1-7; he responded - O my Lord, I am not eloquent, I am slow of speech and of a slow tongue and because Moses did not trust that God would be with him, the anger of the LORD was kindled against him and told him he could speak to Aaron then Aaron could speak to Pharaoh - Is not Aaron the Levite your brother? I know that he can speak well. Was Aaron God's choice or was Moses. See how God worked with Moses to achieve His plans and purposes?

The scriptures don't record each and every man that Jesus met as he traveled but only records those that responded to Jesus saying: "Follow me". I wonder how many men he passed along the way that he asked "Follow me" but they did not? Oh, never mind - The ones that chose not to follow him were not elect; those that followed him were part of the elect . . . IOW, God made them follow Jesus - it wasn't because they loved him and knew and believed him to be the Messiah.

-- Because Joshua was demanding soldiers stand up to fight for God, or to walk away.

-- For the same reasons.

-- Yes, of course.

-- Seeing all of Joshua's life unfold, obviously he did save him and because of that Joshua did as God wanted wholeheartedly.

-- The Lord asked that the people let him lead them. The people said, no, they wanted a king. Then the Lord told them a king would take too much from them, serve himself, make their lives miserable, and lord over them in evil. The people told them they still wanted a king, so God gave them the king he promised to them. (You really should read the whole story in context. Gobsmacked how often the people wanted stupid things, so God gave them what they wanted. Life hasn't changed much since those days. lol) You're confusing "king" with "saved." Yes, God appointed Saul as king. Big difference from Saul as man of God.

-- Does any man ever want to do something like that willingly the first moment? You think Moses delayed? Try Jonah! Did Moses really ever have a choice? Of course not. Because who is crazy enough to come to the Pharaoh and say, "Let my people go," without an army, or some power over a Pharaoh? God is consistent. He chooses the foolish, the weak, the least, all to show HIS power, not their power. Look who he did chose -- a man with a speech impediment, a shepherd boy, a coward hiding in a threshing pit to avoid war, and a guy who rightfully hated the Ninevehites, so took the next boat going the opposite direction. The only one cocky enough to think he could pull off what the Lord asked him to do was the shepherd boy. Then again, he already had been chose by God so had experience in how God strengthens him. Sure, he chooses, then he strengthens and talks to his kids until we are willing to go where he asks. (And, if talking doesn't work, three days in the stomach of a fish does.) But he is God, we are not, and he was always going to get his way.

-- Read the Gospel of John again. The whole thing without the "I make my own choices. God can't stop me" filter on. Just straight up read it. Yes, he really did choose his men. John was one of John the Baptist's servants. One guy was sitting under a fig tree far from Jesus' visual line-of-sight, and yet Jesus chose him. Lots of people followed him, but he stopped them cold in their tracks by saying silly things like "eat my flesh and drink my blood" or "Before Abraham, I AM." John references over and over again about the one following Jesus who was chosen, but not chosen to be saved. Chosen to hand him over to the authorities. Jesus said over and over again that his Father chooses, and he gathers ALL his Father has given him. Read the Gospel of John. It's clear as day that Jesus was sorting through the wheat and tares the entire time. He wasn't lying in John 3, 6, or 12-16. (Chapters, not mere verses taken out of context.)

 

[Depleted]

#1 - I am not, nor ever have been a child in Germany in the 1930's - so I have no choice to make. BUT could I have rebelled against the government - if my family rebelled then I would have been involved in that rebellion and probably would have lost my life. But it is not even available for me to make that choice. Did Anne Frank rebel against communism?
#2 - North Korea - thank God I don't live there but if I felt wronged, I would stand up for what I believe, if confronted, even if it meant death. But I do not have to make that choice - it is not even available to me.
#3 - We have the choice to rebel against our government through a system (although faulty) called voting and/or by protesting.
#4 - Why would I want to rebel against being a woman? I have no reason to want to choose to rebel against being a woman. I like being a woman. Do I have a choice to rebel against the way women are treated? Of course I do.

The one constant throughout the word of God - choose life; choose death. Once I come to know God through his word and he sets forth an option before me - I have to make a choice. I heard the gospel - How much God loved me that He sent his only begotten Son so that I could have eternal life. That Son shed his blood for the remission of my sins and God raised him from the dead. Hearing how I was supposed to live my life in regard to HOW I was living my life brought tremendous sorrow in my heart and led me to godly repentance so I made the choice then to repent of my sins, confess Jesus as Lord and I believed that God raised him from the dead . . . the biggest and best decision I ever made in my life. The only other choice I had was to remain in sin and death. It was a no brainer!

Okay, so which one was it again?

Was it you get eternal life that did it for you?

Tremendous sorrow led you?

Or no brainer?

Because honestly, I agree with you. It is a no brainer. It's a no brainer because it wasn't our brains that saved us. It was God. We never thought over the most important decision we ever made because it wasn't a decision we made. It was a decision he made!

 

[dcontroversal]

Maybe Jesus is talking about what people are being taught, i.e. John came neither eating or drinking yet they said "he hath a devil" . . . I came eating and drinking and they said "Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. . . . Jesus points out that Elijah was John which was prophesied to come. Neither behavior satisfied the religious Jews . . . Then he began to reprove the cities where most of his mighty works were done because they did not repent even after seeing these mighty works . . . these were the religious Jews - scribes and the Pharisees who taught "what to do" but did not "follow through" in their own behavior . . For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne and lay them on men's shoulders - all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments (Matt. 23:4,5). Jesus prays to his Father . . . thank you that you have hidden these things from the prudent and the wise - who were the prudent and the wise - the so-called scribes and Pharisees - but you have revealed them unto babes - aren't we to become as "little children"? Was it not God's pleasure to have it this way?
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 18:3)
But Jesus said, Suffer (permit, allow) little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 19:14) . . . apparently so . . .

IN CONTRAST to those who lay heavy burdens upon men: Jesus says - Come unto me all you that are heavy laden (with heavy burdens that are grievous to be borne laid upon your shoulders), I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and you shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

There's the context.

So did Jesus "really say"? - Come unto me . . . it seems he did. Do we REALLY have the choice to "come unto him"?

Did he also say that no man can come unto the Son unless drawn of the Father?

Does MANY = ALL?

Which of the following is in the scripture?

MANY are called, but few chosen.

All are called, but few chosen.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

-- Because Joshua was demanding soldiers stand up to fight for God, or to walk away.

-- For the same reasons.

-- Yes, of course.

-- Seeing all of Joshua's life unfold, obviously he did save him and because of that Joshua did as God wanted wholeheartedly.

Joshua had gathered the leadership of the tribes of Israel and reminded them of all the things God had done for them . . . then told them to fear God and serve him . . . choose you this day whom you will serve . . . idols or the one true God. I agree that Joshua loved God with all his heart, soul, mind and strength . . . I think where we disagree is Joshua did not have a choice in his love for God but was "chosen" to love God. I believe Joshua had a choice - idolatry vs. serve the one true God. And he took the stand to serve God.

-- The Lord asked that the people let him lead them. The people said, no, they wanted a king. Then the Lord told them a king would take too much from them, serve himself, make their lives miserable, and lord over them in evil. The people told them they still wanted a king, so God gave them the king he promised to them. (You really should read the whole story in context. Gobsmacked how often the people wanted stupid things, so God gave them what they wanted. Life hasn't changed much since those days. lol) You're confusing "king" with "saved." Yes, God appointed Saul as king. Big difference from Saul as man of God.

I do know the story of how "kings" came about. Mostly in the OT when "man of God" is used it is used concerning a "prophet". But nevertheless - Saul was chosen by God to be king - Saul was a choice young man and a goodly man; Saul went into the city to see the man of God (Samuel). Samuel had already been told by God about Saul and was told to anoint him to be captain over the people of Israel. Samuel anointed Saul . . . God changed Saul's heart . . . and the Spirit of God came upon him and he prophesied among the prophets. That is the background -

-- Does any man ever want to do something like that willingly the first moment? You think Moses delayed? Try Jonah! Did Moses really ever have a choice? Of course not. Because who is crazy enough to come to the Pharaoh and say, "Let my people go," without an army, or some power over a Pharaoh? God is consistent. He chooses the foolish, the weak, the least, all to show HIS power, not their power. Look who he did chose -- a man with a speech impediment, a shepherd boy, a coward hiding in a threshing pit to avoid war, and a guy who rightfully hated the Ninevehites, so took the next boat going the opposite direction. The only one cocky enough to think he could pull off what the Lord asked him to do was the shepherd boy. Then again, he already had been chose by God so had experience in how God strengthens him. Sure, he chooses, then he strengthens and talks to his kids until we are willing to go where he asks. (And, if talking doesn't work, three days in the stomach of a fish does.) But he is God, we are not, and he was always going to get his way.

The thing is I have never said that God does NOT choose individuals to carry out his plans to fulfill his purposes. And he will work around those who are stubborn if he has to - the point is God works with man. As to salvation - mankind was given options - to serve God or not, to believe and trust in him or not . . . .

-- Read the Gospel of John again. The whole thing without the "I make my own choices. God can't stop me" filter on. Just straight up read it. Yes, he really did choose his men. John was one of John the Baptist's servants. One guy was sitting under a fig tree far from Jesus' visual line-of-sight, and yet Jesus chose him. Lots of people followed him, but he stopped them cold in their tracks by saying silly things like "eat my flesh and drink my blood" or "Before Abraham, I AM." John references over and over again about the one following Jesus who was chosen, but not chosen to be saved. Chosen to hand him over to the authorities. Jesus said over and over again that his Father chooses, and he gathers ALL his Father has given him. Read the Gospel of John. It's clear as day that Jesus was sorting through the wheat and tares the entire time. He wasn't lying in John 3, 6, or 12-16. (Chapters, not mere verses taken out of context.)

I don't know why you assume that I have not read the Bible? I have read and continue to read . . . and I have set my responses up in context. God "chose" the way and plan of salvation. Nothing will thwart God's plan nor purpose (Isaiah 55:11) So shall my word be that goes forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. How does one receive salvation? Only through Jesus Christ - one must believe and to believe in something, to trust in something, to be fully persuaded in something takes a person making a decision.

Actually the wheat and the tares have not been separated YET. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

No, God is not a liar and throughout scripture he has set forth His plan for salvation - a choice. You either believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (life) or you don't (death).

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Okay, so which one was it again?

Was it you get eternal life that did it for you?

Tremendous sorrow led you?

Or no brainer?

Because honestly, I agree with you. It is a no brainer. It's a no brainer because it wasn't our brains that saved us. It was God. We never thought over the most important decision we ever made because it wasn't a decision we made. It was a decision he made!

It took more than one time for me to hear the gospel to come to the decision to believe in God and his only begotten Son. I had to hear it enough that I trusted and believed in what I heard. Hearing works through my brain and my thought processes. Building trust in something takes time and sometimes experience - you don't meet a stranger and trust that stranger with everything that you are - a relationship of trust has to be built through your experiences with that stranger until that stranger becomes a friend you can trust.

Actually, I would say that godly sorrow came almost immediately - but believing in God's word and the truth found within - that took awhile. But God did not MAKE me love HIM - Jesus did not MAKE me love him . . . I grew in love and trust as I learned more about his life and started seeing God's faithfulness to me in my life - that is when my true relationship with the Father and the Son began.