Let's kill the anti-rhetoric concerning missions
- Thread starter SovereignGrace
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
If the greek says something different, isnt it odd that all the translators in all other languages got it wrong? Even the liberal ones? Aint that something.
If it dont mean what it says, what does it mean? And how come yall aint removed it from the bible yet? Im sure thats coming when some "older manuscripts" are discovered.
If it dont mean what it says, what does it mean? And how come yall aint removed it from the bible yet? Im sure thats coming when some "older manuscripts" are discovered.
There is no conflict between the Greek text and the English translations regarding the role of women in the home and in the church. That is misdirection and misrepresentation. Let's take just one Scripture (1 Cor 14:34):
New International Version
Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.
New Living Translation
Women should be silent during the church meetings. It is not proper for them to speak. They should be submissive, just as the law says.
English Standard Version
the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.
New American Standard Bible
The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.
King James Bible
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. [Note: The modern translations have changed "your women" (traditional texts) to "the women" or just "women"]
Westcott and Hort 1881
Αἱ γυναῖκες ἐν ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις σιγάτωσαν, οὐ γὰρ ἐπιτρέπεται αὐταῖς λαλεῖν· ἀλλὰ ὑποτασσέσθωσαν, καθὼς καὶ ὁ νόμος λέγει.
Nestle Greek New Testament 1904
αἱ γυναῖκες ἐν ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις σιγάτωσαν· οὐ γὰρ ἐπιτρέπεται αὐταῖς λαλεῖν, ἀλλὰ ὑποτασσέσθωσαν, καθὼς καὶ ὁ νόμος λέγει.
Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
αἱ γυναῖκες ὑμῶν ἐν ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις σιγάτωσαν· οὐ γὰρ ἐπιτέτραπται αὐταῖς λαλεῖν ἀλλ' ὑποτάσσεσθαι, καθὼς καὶ ὁ νόμος λέγει
Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
Αἱ γυναῖκες ὑμῶν ἐν ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις σιγάτωσαν· οὐ γὰρ ἐπιτέτραπται αὐταῖς λαλεῖν, ἀλλ’ ὑποτάσσεσθαι, καθὼς καὶ ὁ νόμος λέγει.
New International Version
Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.
New Living Translation
Women should be silent during the church meetings. It is not proper for them to speak. They should be submissive, just as the law says.
English Standard Version
the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.
New American Standard Bible
The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.
King James Bible
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. [Note: The modern translations have changed "your women" (traditional texts) to "the women" or just "women"]
Westcott and Hort 1881
Αἱ γυναῖκες ἐν ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις σιγάτωσαν, οὐ γὰρ ἐπιτρέπεται αὐταῖς λαλεῖν· ἀλλὰ ὑποτασσέσθωσαν, καθὼς καὶ ὁ νόμος λέγει.
Nestle Greek New Testament 1904
αἱ γυναῖκες ἐν ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις σιγάτωσαν· οὐ γὰρ ἐπιτρέπεται αὐταῖς λαλεῖν, ἀλλὰ ὑποτασσέσθωσαν, καθὼς καὶ ὁ νόμος λέγει.
Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
αἱ γυναῖκες ὑμῶν ἐν ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις σιγάτωσαν· οὐ γὰρ ἐπιτέτραπται αὐταῖς λαλεῖν ἀλλ' ὑποτάσσεσθαι, καθὼς καὶ ὁ νόμος λέγει
Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
Αἱ γυναῖκες ὑμῶν ἐν ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις σιγάτωσαν· οὐ γὰρ ἐπιτέτραπται αὐταῖς λαλεῖν, ἀλλ’ ὑποτάσσεσθαι, καθὼς καὶ ὁ νόμος λέγει.
Last edited:
These are all female prophets;
Micah 6:4, "for I brought you up from the land of Mitsrayim, and I ransomed you from the house of bondage. And I sent Mosheh, Aharon, and Miryam before you."
Judges 4:4, "And Deḇorah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappiḏoth, was ruling Yisra’ĕl at that time."
2 Kings 22:14, "Then Ḥilqiyahu the priest, and Aḥiqam, and Aḵbor, and Shaphan, and Asayah went to Ḥuldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum son of Tiqwah, son of Ḥarḥas, keeper of the wardrobe. Now she was dwelling in Yerushalayim in the Second Quarter. And they spoke with her.
Nehemiah 6:14, "My Elohim, remember Toḇiyah and Sanballat, according to these works of theirs, and the prophetess No‛aḏyah and the rest of the prophets who would have made me afraid."
Isaiah8:3, "And I went to the prophetess, and she conceived and bore a son. And יהוה said to me, “Call his name Mahĕr-Shalal-Ḥash-Baz;"
Luke 2:36, "And there was Ḥannah, a prophetess, a daughter of Penu’ĕl, of the tribe of Ashĕr. She was advanced in years, and had lived with a husband seven years from her maidenhood,"
Acts 21:8, "And on the next day we left and came to Caesarea, and went into the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, and stayed with him."21:9, "Now this one had four maiden daughters who prophesied."
Micah 6:4, "for I brought you up from the land of Mitsrayim, and I ransomed you from the house of bondage. And I sent Mosheh, Aharon, and Miryam before you."
Judges 4:4, "And Deḇorah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappiḏoth, was ruling Yisra’ĕl at that time."
2 Kings 22:14, "Then Ḥilqiyahu the priest, and Aḥiqam, and Aḵbor, and Shaphan, and Asayah went to Ḥuldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum son of Tiqwah, son of Ḥarḥas, keeper of the wardrobe. Now she was dwelling in Yerushalayim in the Second Quarter. And they spoke with her.
Nehemiah 6:14, "My Elohim, remember Toḇiyah and Sanballat, according to these works of theirs, and the prophetess No‛aḏyah and the rest of the prophets who would have made me afraid."
Isaiah8:3, "And I went to the prophetess, and she conceived and bore a son. And יהוה said to me, “Call his name Mahĕr-Shalal-Ḥash-Baz;"
Luke 2:36, "And there was Ḥannah, a prophetess, a daughter of Penu’ĕl, of the tribe of Ashĕr. She was advanced in years, and had lived with a husband seven years from her maidenhood,"
Acts 21:8, "And on the next day we left and came to Caesarea, and went into the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, and stayed with him."21:9, "Now this one had four maiden daughters who prophesied."
Quoting these Scriptures in this connection is completely out of context. Since God does not contradict Himself, these prophetesses were not prophesying within THE LOCAL ASSEMBLY ("silence in the CHURCHES"). In any event, the gift of prophecy has come to an end (1 Cor 13:8) and the Bible is complete. So I hope you are not promoting prophetesses in the churches today, since they would fall under the umbrella of "false prophetesses".
Last edited:
D
I made a choice to bake some pumpkin-cranberry muffins for my husband too -- AFTER he became my husband. He's been my husband for 36 years. Joshua was God's chosen longer than that. My husband is a great deal. He's sweet, loving, supportive, sticks by me, doesn't merely put up with me, protects me, nurtures me, and is kind enough to tell me when I'm wrong. God is even more than my husband. I'm not choosing my husband day after day. That happened long ago. At which time, I really did choose him before he chose me, but GOD elected us, and GOD brought us together, not our choice. I'm not choosing God day after day. God chose me once before the foundations of the earth, before the universe started, and on April 4, 1972. He chose me. And because he is like he is, I follow him out of love and awe, loyalty and awe, and wonderment and awe. BUT because he first chose me!
Same deal with Joshua! Of course he followed God and chose him over idols. God already showed him he was real and worth following. He already chose Joshua. If it was necessary for Joshua to say that on that particular day, (because the word "today" was used), then do you think it was necessary for him to make that same decree every day?
Yes? Then do you?
No? Then why not? Because Joshua was talking to a people who really did need to put up or leave on that particular day! To make it into Joshua chose God that one singular day, or started choosing God that one particular day is simply taking a verse out of context to prove-a-point, ad it does NOT prove your point. You know this. I know this. A grade school child knows this, if they read that story in context. So, stop pretending it means something other then a point in time when Israel had to choose between fighting against idolatry, or stop being Israelites to go join the idolaters. THAT is context! It is NOT salvation!
And read John. Because whenever thousands followed Jesus, he got the tare out pronto. Instead of going by memory, which clearly isn't working in your favor, read the book. Whenever thousands followed him, he drove hundreds and hundreds (the vast majority), away with just one sentence.
And he did that for a reason. Because he would need just the ones the Father gave him to go out and preach the Good News, because everyone else was going to do what the majority do on this site -- make him a god to their liking.
Same deal with Joshua! Of course he followed God and chose him over idols. God already showed him he was real and worth following. He already chose Joshua. If it was necessary for Joshua to say that on that particular day, (because the word "today" was used), then do you think it was necessary for him to make that same decree every day?
Yes? Then do you?
No? Then why not? Because Joshua was talking to a people who really did need to put up or leave on that particular day! To make it into Joshua chose God that one singular day, or started choosing God that one particular day is simply taking a verse out of context to prove-a-point, ad it does NOT prove your point. You know this. I know this. A grade school child knows this, if they read that story in context. So, stop pretending it means something other then a point in time when Israel had to choose between fighting against idolatry, or stop being Israelites to go join the idolaters. THAT is context! It is NOT salvation!
And read John. Because whenever thousands followed Jesus, he got the tare out pronto. Instead of going by memory, which clearly isn't working in your favor, read the book. Whenever thousands followed him, he drove hundreds and hundreds (the vast majority), away with just one sentence.
And he did that for a reason. Because he would need just the ones the Father gave him to go out and preach the Good News, because everyone else was going to do what the majority do on this site -- make him a god to their liking.
D
I love you as the crotchety old man in Florida who likes making snide remarks and throwing out bait without bothering to use a fishing pole and who has redefined the word "love" to fit what you want rather than what the Lord has called us to do. Granted, not on my own. The Lord does that through me, but doable.
And STILL avoiding election all together to side topic into something else that you think you're more comfortable with, because, after all, God's not sovereign. He co-reigns with whoever chooses him. God's not sovereign -- he's "luck."
And STILL avoiding election all together to side topic into something else that you think you're more comfortable with, because, after all, God's not sovereign. He co-reigns with whoever chooses him. God's not sovereign -- he's "luck."
I think that Paul had the submission in mind when talking about the Law.
"Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says." (NIV)
"And to the woman he said..., and your submission shall be to your man, and he shall rule over you." Gen 3:16
"Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says." (NIV)
"And to the woman he said..., and your submission shall be to your man, and he shall rule over you." Gen 3:16
Sorry SG, but one final (I hope!) rebuttal here, before we go back to missions, which I totally support!
So, just to satisfy my curiosity, show me where in "The Law" it says women are to be silent. I can't find it, anywhere. Not once in the 10 commandments, or any of the other +600 laws.
So, if it is not there (and it is not!) what is Paul saying? Is he saying women are to keep silent, or is he quoting back something they have said in correspondence, and he is replying sarcastically? Because, if this is a COMMAND, then it should be found in the law. But, since it is not, perhaps it is time to reexamine your exegesis as being faulty. Because there is NO SUCH COMMAND!!
Context counts! As in the WHOLE verse, not just part of it, the chapter, the book, the Covenant, the Bible and Jesus Christ!
As far as your Greek, I noticed you only used the Greek versions that are based on TR. You know, the manuscripts with all the additions in the margins, etc.
Here is SBL
Αἱ γυναῖκες ἐν ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις σιγάτωσαν, οὐ γὰρ ἐπιτρέπεται αὐταῖς λαλεῖν· ἀλλὰ ὑποτασσέσθωσαν, καθὼς καὶ ὁ νόμος λέγει.
Ooops! No "humon" ὑμῶν in that version!
I honestly do not see where I particularly emphasized the word "today" or "this day". Joshua was talking to the leadership of Israel (on this particular day out of many) giving them an opportunity to get out of idolatry to serve the one true God.
I really do consider this a false accusation "I am pulling verses out of context" - I have tried to implement context into each of my responses . . . you said that "Joshua was demanding soldiers stand up to fight for God or to walk away" . . . that is not who he was speaking to so I went through the context (24:1) speaking to leadership; reminded them of all the things God had done for them (2-13); then told them to fear God and serve him; Joshua said to them, choose you this day whom you will serve - idols or the one true God. (15) [post #119] Just an off question - stop being Israelites to go join the idolaters?????. . . was it possible to un-become an Israelite?
People removed themselves from Jesus company either because they did not believe he was the Messiah or they did not understand his teachings. I only know that the tares will not be separated from the wheat until the day of harvest . . . We still have tares among us.
And to the subject of this thread - I see no reason to preach the gospel, I see no reason to trust and believe the gospel, if one is elected by God to begin with. What exactly is the witnessing process of those that believe God elects them? Because from what I believe I am hearing (and I could be dreadfully wrong) that the only way to receive salvation is if God elects you or not. That would be the foundation of your mission or witnessing program. On what basis does God elect someone?
