Dear Joanie, there are people telling you that Joseph Prince is a false teacher. I personally don't know much about him. A little doubt is a good thing especially if someone is saying a person is a false teacher. I would encourage you to look into it. You can also ask questions to the people saying he is a false teacher. You can ask why do you believe that about him? And when they tell you why, you could ask where did you get this information from? If you listen and consider what opponents of Joseph Prince are saying, it shows them that you are saying their opinion matters and you are showing respect for their position. Wouldn't you want people to do the same for you?
ALL THAT I HAVE IS YOURS....
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Cherie, if you go back somewhere on page 5, I believe, I went through the entire OP and compared it to the Bible. The OP came up lacking.
I know you are new, but I think last year, we went through Joseph Prince and his new "hypergrace" theology in detail. It became obvious it was not Biblical, and in fact, further discussion was banned by the mods on account of it not being Biblical and in fact being a heresy. For some reason, Joanie-Marie continues to post his devotionals, which are easily debunked simply by comparing them to the Bible.
These devotionals are always verses pulled out of context to support the hypergrace heresy, which, in theological terms is called "eisegesis." That means "to read into the verse" something that supports a prior idea or concept. Properly, in hermeneutics, or Bible interpretation, the goal is exegesis. That means "to take out of the Bible" something that is actually there. NEVER to read "into" it.
Also, taking part of a verse, without the surrounding verse, or twisting it to mean something the verse was never meant to say, is another part of how heresies, including hypergrace are started. Joseph Prince is a master of out of context and twisting verses.
Here are a few links about his theology because you missed all this. Joanie Marie was here for at least part of this, under this profile and a previous one. So she knows what has been said about this.
Joseph Prince: Unmerited Favor - Christian Research Institute
Long For Truth: 4 Theological Flaws of Joseph Prince
As for me, I am finding it harder and harder to reply to JM's absurd rebuttals, when she never reads what is written, or perhaps she doesn't understand? And then there is another more serious issue. That is that I am running out of words to describe hypergrace and Joseph Prince's heresies, without crossing over the line. So, I may have to bow out of this fruitless discussion. However, I did want to address your concerns, being newer to the forum.
I know you are new, but I think last year, we went through Joseph Prince and his new "hypergrace" theology in detail. It became obvious it was not Biblical, and in fact, further discussion was banned by the mods on account of it not being Biblical and in fact being a heresy. For some reason, Joanie-Marie continues to post his devotionals, which are easily debunked simply by comparing them to the Bible.
These devotionals are always verses pulled out of context to support the hypergrace heresy, which, in theological terms is called "eisegesis." That means "to read into the verse" something that supports a prior idea or concept. Properly, in hermeneutics, or Bible interpretation, the goal is exegesis. That means "to take out of the Bible" something that is actually there. NEVER to read "into" it.
Also, taking part of a verse, without the surrounding verse, or twisting it to mean something the verse was never meant to say, is another part of how heresies, including hypergrace are started. Joseph Prince is a master of out of context and twisting verses.
Here are a few links about his theology because you missed all this. Joanie Marie was here for at least part of this, under this profile and a previous one. So she knows what has been said about this.
Joseph Prince: Unmerited Favor - Christian Research Institute
Long For Truth: 4 Theological Flaws of Joseph Prince
As for me, I am finding it harder and harder to reply to JM's absurd rebuttals, when she never reads what is written, or perhaps she doesn't understand? And then there is another more serious issue. That is that I am running out of words to describe hypergrace and Joseph Prince's heresies, without crossing over the line. So, I may have to bow out of this fruitless discussion. However, I did want to address your concerns, being newer to the forum.
Hi Cherie., Yes., I know what you mean and I appreciate your post and your heart in the matter of making peace. But in this case., me and the the specific Christians here who are posting so vehemently against my posts and the devotionals I share have already had this conversation as an on going discussion.
It's been going on and off for over 2 years now and then some. It's not a matter of not knowing what I believe and why I happen to agree with JP on subjects. I like other preachers and teachers that they don't like just as much. It's not just JP., it's the different beliefs I hold to concerning different doctrinal differences concerning healing in the atonement. We who are disagreeing here have already been down that road and gone our separate ways. But sometimes they come back to argue.
I believe in healing in the atonement as well as speaking in tongues and the other gifts of the Spirit. Those who post against these devotionals don't hold to these beliefs and freely call them false. We can go post for post and we already have in the past but that is not why I'm here. Been there done that with Angela., Depleted and some others also in the past., and now more recently Nehemiah has joined in.
It's a matter of respecting other believers even when they don't agree with us yet some believers won't have it. Sadly that is the case especially here with those who post so vehemently against my posts. You'll have to read the posts and get past the accusations and to the heart of the matter if you want to know and if you want to take the time.
Some here who don't like my posts have already told me they are not healed and deal with pain on a day to day basis and have had bad experiences with expecting healing and not getting healed. But it's my firm belief not to go by what people experience but to go instead by what the Bible says. I have yet to experience the Rapture of the church but I still believe it and share it.
I was not healed right away but have learned through good teaching and preaching that in some cases healing is a process of some 10 fold some 20 fold some 50 fold and onward as I press on in the Word and believe. I've experienced healing and keep pressing on in faith for the finished result.
But I believe because it's in the Bible. I've posted these verses before on healing in the atonement and there are Christians who believe and those who don't. That's ok because we each have to be firmly convinced in our own minds and for me., I see healing and many other blessings we have been given in the atonement. I'll post some verses here. Thank you for your post and I do appreciate you taking the time to share. Blessings!
- Surely He has borne our griefs (sicknesses, weaknesses, and distresses) and carried our sorrows and pains [of punishment], yet we [ignorantly] considered Him stricken, smitten, and afflicted by God [as if with leprosy]. But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our guilt and iniquities; the chastisement [needful to obtain] peace and well-being for us was upon Him, and with the stripes [that wounded] Him we are healed and made whole.
- Isaiah 53:4–5 (AMP) - But He was pierced for our rebellion, crushed for our sins. He was beaten so we could be whole. He was whipped so we could be healed.
- Isaiah 53:5 (NLT) - …who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.
- 1 Peter 2:24 - But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
- Romans 8:11 - He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
- Romans 8:32 - Suddenly, a man with leprosy approached Him and knelt before Him. “Lord,” the man said, “if You are willing, You can heal me and make me clean.” Jesus reached out and touched him. “I am willing,” He said. “Be healed!” And instantly the leprosy disappeared.
- Matthew 8:2–3 (NLT) - “Lord, help!” they cried in their trouble, and He saved them from their distress. He sent out His word and healed them, snatching them from the door of death.
- Psalm 107:19–20 (NLT) - For He will rescue you from every trap and protect you from deadly disease.
- Psalm 91:3 (NLT) - He also brought them out with silver and gold, and there was none feeble among His tribes.
- Psalm 105:37 - Beloved, I pray that in all respects you may prosper and be in good health, just as your soul prospers.
- 3 John 1:2 (NASB) - “The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have [it] more abundantly.”
- John 10:10 - Do not be afraid of the terrors of the night, nor the arrow that flies in the day. Do not dread the disease that stalks in darkness, nor the disaster that strikes at midday. Though a thousand fall at your side, though ten thousand are dying around you, these evils will not touch you.
- Psalm 91:5–7 (NLT) - With long life I will satisfy him, and show him My salvation.
- Psalm 91:16 - “…I am the Lord who heals you.”
- Exodus 15:26 - “I will give you back your health and heal your wounds,” says the Lord.
- Jeremiah 30:17 (NLT) - Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all His benefits: Who forgives all your iniquities, Who heals all your diseases.
- Psalm 103:2–3 - My son, give attention to my words; incline your ear to my sayings. Do not let them depart from your eyes; keep them in the midst of your heart; for they [are] life to those who find them, and health to all their flesh.
- Proverbs 4:20-22
- And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among the people.
- Matthew 4:23 - News about Him spread as far as Syria, and people soon began bringing to Him all who were sick. And whatever their sickness or disease, or if they were demon-possessed or epileptic or paralyzed—He healed them all.
- Matthew 4:24 (NLT) - When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. “Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.” Jesus said to him, “I will go and heal him.”
- Matthew 8: 5–7 (NIV) - When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying: “He Himself took our infirmities and bore [our] sicknesses.”
- Matthew 8:16–17 - …Then Jesus turned to the paralyzed man and said, “Stand up, pick up your mat, and go home!” And the man jumped up and went home!
- Matthew 9:6–7 (NLT) - Then great multitudes came to Him, having with them [the] lame, blind, mute, maimed, and many others; and they laid them down at Jesus’ feet, and He healed them.
- Matthew 15:30 - Jesus had compassion on them and touched their eyes. Immediately they received their sight and followed Him.
- Matthew 20:34 (NIV) - And He entered the synagogue again, and a man was there who had a withered hand. So they watched Him closely, whether He would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse Him. And He said to the man who had the withered hand, “Step forward.” Then He said to them, “Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” But they kept silent. And when He had looked around at them with anger, being grieved by the hardness of their hearts, He said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” And he stretched [it] out, and his hand was restored as whole as the other.
- Mark 3:1–5 - A woman in the crowd had suffered for twelve years with constant bleeding. She had suffered a great deal from many doctors, and over the years she had spent everything she had to pay them, but she had gotten no better. In fact, she had gotten worse. She had heard about Jesus, so she came up behind Him through the crowd and touched His robe. For she thought to herself, “If I can just touch His robe, I will be healed.” Immediately the bleeding stopped, and she could feel in her body that she had been healed of her terrible condition.
- Mark 5:25–29 (NLT) - Jesus stopped and said, “Call him.” So they called to the blind man, “Cheer up! On your feet! He’s calling you.” Throwing his cloak aside, he jumped to his feet and came to Jesus. “What do you want Me to do for you?” Jesus asked him. The blind man said, “Rabbi, I want to see.” “Go,” said Jesus, “your faith has healed you.” Immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.
- Mark 10:49–52 (NIV) - When the sun was setting, all those who had any that were sick with various diseases brought them to Him; and He laid His hands on every one of them and healed them.
- Luke 4:40 - And the whole multitude sought to touch Him, for power went out from Him and healed [them] all.
- Luke 6:19 - A funeral procession was coming out as He approached the village gate. The young man who had died was a widow’s only son, and a large crowd from the village was with her. When the Lord saw her, His heart overflowed with compassion. “Don’t cry!” He said. Then He walked over to the coffin and touched it, and the bearers stopped. “Young man,” He said, “I tell you, get up.” Then the dead boy sat up and began to talk! And Jesus gave him back to his mother.
- Luke 7:12–15 (NLT) - And a woman was there who had been crippled by a spirit for eighteen years. She was bent over and could not straighten up at all. When Jesus saw her, He called her forward and said to her, “Woman, you are set free from your infirmity.” Then He put His hands on her, and immediately she straightened up and praised God.
- Luke 13:11–13 (NIV) - One of the men lying there had been sick for thirty-eight years. When Jesus saw him and knew he had been ill for a long time, He asked him, “Would you like to get well?” “I can’t, sir,” the sick man said, “for I have no one to put me into the pool when the water bubbles up. Someone else always gets there ahead of me.” Jesus told him, “Stand up, pick up your mat, and walk!” Instantly, the man was healed! He rolled up his sleeping mat and began walking!
- John 5:5–9 (NLT) - “…how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.”
- Acts 10:38
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Exactly IAWIA., thank you for that. In high school I learned not to go along with the angry crowd because it takes time to know the heart of a matter. Gossip and accusation is something I am harshly against., just look at American politics and our main stream media. I liken this type of harassment here along those same lines. Much gets lost when false accusations of "heretical or heretic" are thrown around so freely.
I have nothing against those who disagree with me.. and do not believe it does any good to argue on matters we have already been over many times already. I do however believe I have a right to share my beliefs as a Christian woman as much as others do as Christian woman and men. Again, it's a matter of love and respect for the body of Christ.
Correction., what was banned by the moderators are false accusation against another Christian and calling people heretic and hyper grace or hyper anything. Yet you keep using those words to describe me when it's my belief in speaking in tongues., healing and other promises in the atonement that you do not hold to and it's those truths that I hold to and often share about here on CC.
As I said before., you have not proved anything. All you have done is give your opinion and your faith and tried to hold it up against mine as a measuring stick. You simply can't do that because each of us are individuals with a personal relationship with Jesus. You can't control what I or others believe Angela nor can you control what I post as much as yo seem to want to.
You can however come against me with your accusations of hyper this and hyper that and you've done that for some time now on CC. But your anger is very obvious and your biting words are easily seen. The reason I don't read your posts all the time is because your bitterness is like willfully taking a dose of poison. I don't have to subject myself to your words. I wish you would just start your own posts on subjects close to your heart and stop fighting.
Sorry to say there are many web sites that exist for the sole purpose of finding fault with other Christians who don't quite believe the same way so these sites record more about these people out of context to hand out to unsuspecting people who don't take the time to listen on their own. Often times they only show parts of interviews and then degrade them (much like some do here)
They have sites against Billy Graham for Pete's sake. Preaches and teaches and evangelists and singers., I listened to growing up that were and are men and woman of God., Chuck Swindol., John MacGarther., J.Vernon McGee., Joyce Meyer., James D. Kennedy., Joel Ostein., Creflo Dollar., Amy Grant., Ravi Zacharais., Dr. David Jeremiah and on I could go.
There will alllll ways be such sites and I find them disparaging to say the least. The devil somehow gets Christians to do his work for him as they believe they are somehow purifying the church when in fact they are shooting their own.
They have sites against Billy Graham for Pete's sake. Preaches and teaches and evangelists and singers., I listened to growing up that were and are men and woman of God., Chuck Swindol., John MacGarther., J.Vernon McGee., Joyce Meyer., James D. Kennedy., Joel Ostein., Creflo Dollar., Amy Grant., Ravi Zacharais., Dr. David Jeremiah and on I could go.
There will alllll ways be such sites and I find them disparaging to say the least. The devil somehow gets Christians to do his work for him as they believe they are somehow purifying the church when in fact they are shooting their own.
I know that is not true because the Bible says so. But how many Christians are under the impression that their healing and their blessings are due to the fact that they are "worthy" when in fact it's Christ who is the Worthy One. All we have and all we ever will have is because of Jesus and what He did for us. He made us righteous..,,, we did not make ourselves righteous. We are the righteousness of God IN Christ.
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I think it's totally unfair to spam your own thread by constantly reposting to agitate others.
I think it's totally unfair for you to act like you're so much higher than those who disagree with you.
I think it's totally unfair that you quote hypergrace teachers ALL THE TIME when it's against the rules.
I think it's unfair that you whine and cry when others disagree with you and you without proof blame them for twisting your words.
I'll stop there because trying to finish this post could take all night.
I think it's totally unfair for you to act like you're so much higher than those who disagree with you.
I think it's totally unfair that you quote hypergrace teachers ALL THE TIME when it's against the rules.
I think it's unfair that you whine and cry when others disagree with you and you without proof blame them for twisting your words.
I'll stop there because trying to finish this post could take all night.
No one keeps twisting your arm to come back and be so "agitated" to such a degree you are vexed..., so why do you come back? Here is the rest of the post you failed to put up...
Well, you are free to see God the way you see Him and I am free to see Him the way I'm learning to see Him.
If you don't like these devotionals or believe in the manifold blessings that God has for us in Christ than you are free to avoid my posts. I see God as being a loving and benevolent gracious and loving Father who seeks to bring the sheep of His fold in so He can feed and secure us in Himself. I like the way Psalms 23 has taught me to see Jesus. It gives such a beautiful picture of our Good Shepherd.
[SUP]1 [/SUP]The Lord is my Shepherd [to feed, guide, and shield me], I shall not lack.
[SUP]
2 [/SUP]He makes me lie down in [fresh, tender] green pastures; He leads me beside the still and restful waters.
[SUP]
3 [/SUP]He refreshes and restores my life (my self); He leads me in the paths of righteousness [uprightness and right standing with Him—not for my earning it, but] for His name’s sake.
[SUP]
4 [/SUP]Yes, though I walk through the [deep, sunless] valley of the shadow of death, I will fear or dread no evil, for You are with me; Your rod [to protect] and Your staff [to guide], they comfort me.
[SUP]
5 [/SUP]You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies. You anoint my head with [SUP][a][/SUP]oil; my [brimming] cup runs over.
[SUP]
6 [/SUP]Surely or only goodness, mercy, and unfailing love shall follow me all the days of my life, and through the length of my days the house of the Lord [and His presence] shall be my dwelling place.
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The reason why people are opposing your posts is not because of you. It is not an attack on you and I think you may be taking it that way. In fact it may be a sign that they care about you and don't want you to be lead astray. The thing about word of faith preaching is that when unanswered prayer for healings come, it can lead you to at least two directions. One, shaken faith in God. Or two, self-condemnation( I did not have enough faith) or blame( you lacked faith so it is your fault). Can you see how this can be unhealthy? If you are always thanking God for healing and declaring you are healed, it is in my opinion, trying to treat God like a vending machine. Basically if I push the right buttons( having enough faith, declaring what will be... Etc) I will get my healing. This method can also be attempted on marriages and finances. It can become an excuse to not put in the effort to have a good marriage or to stick to a budget and spend responsibly.
Critisim can be a hard pill to shallow. It takes some humility which God honors. One small and silly example could be your spouse saying to you " you always leave your dirty underwear on the floor! Pick it up!" It is not a means of trying to attack you or put you down, it is a sign of frustration. You may be viewing some members here as attacking you, when in reality, some are probably just frustrated thinking that you are not listening to them. I encourage you to ask questions. And if you want to and if you can find it, look up debates on for word of faith doctrine and against. I personally have enjoyed watching a couple of debates, both probably about two hours long. You might like it too!( or maybe not...).
Critisim can be a hard pill to shallow. It takes some humility which God honors. One small and silly example could be your spouse saying to you " you always leave your dirty underwear on the floor! Pick it up!" It is not a means of trying to attack you or put you down, it is a sign of frustration. You may be viewing some members here as attacking you, when in reality, some are probably just frustrated thinking that you are not listening to them. I encourage you to ask questions. And if you want to and if you can find it, look up debates on for word of faith doctrine and against. I personally have enjoyed watching a couple of debates, both probably about two hours long. You might like it too!( or maybe not...).
If I told you that you are saved for simply coming to and believing in Jesus Christ and then turn around and say, "If you are not sure you are saved, come forward and make a commitment to follow Christ."
What would you say?
Would it be.. "Hey.. what happened to coming to & believing in Jesus Christ to be saved?" Or did you not catch that flip at the altar call?
That is why many believers that have made the commitment to follow Christ, follow Him no more, because it is "too hard" while many that claim they are keeping it are doing so by giving grace to themselves while condemning others for being deceitful when they had come forward to make that commitment to follow Christ. Indeed, one person said that little children should not make a commitment to follow Christ because as soon as he had done so, he said the devil been after him to break it ever since. And then he concluded keeping a commitment to follow Christ is hard."
And yet Jesus called the little children to freely come to Him for all they can do is trust the Lord at His word.
So there is just cause for sites to speak against those who speak out of both sides of their mouths, because they may preach the gospel, but they lead them into religious bondage that no one can keep by the flesh. So instead of living by faith in Jesus Christ as their Good Shepherd, they try to do the best they can in keeping that commitment to follow Christ & fail.
I was miserable being doubleminded in keeping my commitment to follow Christ until the Lord set me free from my commitment to rest in Him and all His promises to me that He will help me to follow Him as I trust in Him to be my Good Shepherd.
That is why His yoke is easy & His burden is light. That is why we can rest in Him for all things.
But too many times today, famous preachers in the public eye are misleading many believers away from their resting place in Christ Jesus. So pay attention at that site for something they teach that may be leading you away from resting in Him.
Prove everything by Him by the scripture. Only have Jesus Christ as your Good Shepherd and no body else.
The one thing all these famous christian leaders have forgotten when they get exalted in the media as they are is this:
Luke 6:[SUP]26 [/SUP]Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
What would you say?
Would it be.. "Hey.. what happened to coming to & believing in Jesus Christ to be saved?" Or did you not catch that flip at the altar call?
That is why many believers that have made the commitment to follow Christ, follow Him no more, because it is "too hard" while many that claim they are keeping it are doing so by giving grace to themselves while condemning others for being deceitful when they had come forward to make that commitment to follow Christ. Indeed, one person said that little children should not make a commitment to follow Christ because as soon as he had done so, he said the devil been after him to break it ever since. And then he concluded keeping a commitment to follow Christ is hard."
And yet Jesus called the little children to freely come to Him for all they can do is trust the Lord at His word.
So there is just cause for sites to speak against those who speak out of both sides of their mouths, because they may preach the gospel, but they lead them into religious bondage that no one can keep by the flesh. So instead of living by faith in Jesus Christ as their Good Shepherd, they try to do the best they can in keeping that commitment to follow Christ & fail.
I was miserable being doubleminded in keeping my commitment to follow Christ until the Lord set me free from my commitment to rest in Him and all His promises to me that He will help me to follow Him as I trust in Him to be my Good Shepherd.
That is why His yoke is easy & His burden is light. That is why we can rest in Him for all things.
But too many times today, famous preachers in the public eye are misleading many believers away from their resting place in Christ Jesus. So pay attention at that site for something they teach that may be leading you away from resting in Him.
Prove everything by Him by the scripture. Only have Jesus Christ as your Good Shepherd and no body else.
The one thing all these famous christian leaders have forgotten when they get exalted in the media as they are is this:
Luke 6:[SUP]26 [/SUP]Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
What would you say if I told you that many unsaved people came to the Lord Jesus and got saved because they heard the preaching of a man of God named Billy Graham? And many Christians today are busy and healthy minded believers because of hearing Billy G. one night in their homes when his crusades were on the tv. Just because some don't take the message doesn't mean that all have not taken the message.
Hearing the Bible message begins with that first time. There is always a first time. What each of us does with and after that is up to us. It's not Billy's fault or any other preachers fault that some didn't continue. I'm very thankful for Billy Graham and that he was a man for such a time as this while he was here preaching.
His faithfulness has reverberations all through the years since for good as well. Not only for millions of people who accepted Jesus but also Billy Gs wayward son Franklin who came back and is preaching and teaching all the more and is involved with Samaritans Purse an organization that helps millions all over the world.
I'm also glad you were set free from your double mindedness and now rest in Christ. I was raised in a legalistic church that kept me in knots of works for God's approval too. When later I found out all the while Jesus was my approval before God. It took time for me to hear that message. And thankfully many of the preachers on TV have been used of God greatly for the spreading of the truth of salvation in Christ by grace through faith.