Baptism's role in salvation/gospel? if there is any.

[Snoozy]

ive been thinking about this a lot. i did some topic reading on baptism and i do believe in rightly diving the word of truth.

but mark 16:16, acts 2:38, romans 6:3-4, galatians 3:27, matthew 28:19 and 1 peter 3:21 look like baptism is part of the gospel and essential for salvation or atleast very very important.

but then luke 24:47 acts 16:31 john 3:16 and romans 3:25 that dont mention baptism.

sorry guys i wont be posting all da verses i listed it would be too long of a message i think. ive been baptized btw so this isnt myself that im thinking of but just doctrine in da usual.

What is the role of baptism in salvation? Is it part of the Gospel for the church age in your opinion? i hope we dont start fighting about this.

 

[Nehemiah6]

What is the role of baptism in salvation? Is it part of the Gospel for the church age in your opinion?

There is no doubt that there are a few verse which would suggest that water baptism is necessary for salvation. Therefore the RCC (and possibly the EOC) believe in baptismal regeneration. But what do we see in Scripture, particularly in the book of Acts.

1. Salvation is by God's grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work of redemption (Acts 16:30,31)

2. Water baptism is a command of Christ, and should be preached along with the Gospel (Mt 28:18-20)

3. Water baptism must be administered immediately after conversion, or very shortly thereafter (Acts 10:44-48)

4. There is no need for "classes" before a person is baptized (Acts 8:35-39)

5. Water baptism is symbolic of the believer's death, burial, and resurrection with Christ (Rom 6:3,4)

6. Any Christian brother may baptize a believer (Acts 9:17,18)

 

[Snoozy]

There is no doubt that there are a few verse which would suggest that water baptism is necessary for salvation. Therefore the RCC (and possibly the EOC) believe in baptismal regeneration. But what do we see in Scripture, particularly in the book of Acts.

1. Salvation is by God's grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work of redemption (Acts 16:30,31)

2. Water baptism is a command of Christ, and should be preached along with the Gospel (Mt 28:18-20)

3. Water baptism must be administered immediately after conversion, or very shortly thereafter (Acts 10:44-48)

4. There is no need for "classes" before a person is baptized (Acts 8:35-39)

5. Water baptism is symbolic of the believer's death, burial, and resurrection with Christ (Rom 6:3,4)

6. Any Christian brother may baptize a believer (Acts 9:17,18)

yes. brother nehemiah. this is why i wanted to contact you yesterday. i like the way you lay it down clearly. i agree all of this problem and debate would be solved if people got baptized immediately after conversion like the bible teaches. instead we give the devil time to make them doubt and pontificate.

what do we do with the verses that like u said seem to suggest its necessary for salvation?

 

[KelbyofGod]

Hold that thought with an open heart. I've just gotten up and need to do something before giving a full response with scriptures to back each statement. But I'll suggest this. Please take that question to God as there is a lot of anti-truth teaching about it. Then look at what the BIBLE says baptism does or is involved in (as many mentions as you can find). Then ask yourself whether those biblically-stated functions are necessary. I say do that first because if you take it to man first, without seeking God, you are more likely to be deceived. thanks.

 

[Nehemiah6]

yes. brother nehemiah. this is why i wanted to contact you yesterday. i like the way you lay it down clearly. i agree all of this problem and debate would be solved if people got baptized immediately after conversion like the bible teaches. instead we give the devil time to make them doubt and pontificate.

You are absolutely correct Snoozy. Baptizing new believers immediately, and then following up with discipling them could prevent a lot of problems and help babes in Christ to come to maturity. Indeed, water baptism is essential for Christian growth and steadiness.

what do we do with the verses that like u said seem to suggest its necessary for salvation?

The basic principle is that verses which are difficult to accommodate must be interpreted in the light of those which are very clear. So when Jesus said "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" (Mk 16:16), we need to firstly see what Christ said about being saved in John chapter 3 (which is all about believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and experiencing the New Birth).

Which means that here (Mk 16:16) the reason why baptism is joined together with being saved is that the Lord wanted to see new believers baptized IMMEDIATELY. And that is how we see it throughout the book of Acts. No delays, no questions, no procrastination, and no excuses (and only for believers).

 

[notuptome]

ive been thinking about this a lot. i did some topic reading on baptism and i do believe in rightly diving the word of truth.

but mark 16:16, acts 2:38, romans 6:3-4, galatians 3:27, matthew 28:19 and 1 peter 3:21 look like baptism is part of the gospel and essential for salvation or atleast very very important.

but then luke 24:47 acts 16:31 john 3:16 and romans 3:25 that dont mention baptism.

sorry guys i wont be posting all da verses i listed it would be too long of a message i think. ive been baptized btw so this isnt myself that im thinking of but just doctrine in da usual.

What is the role of baptism in salvation? Is it part of the Gospel for the church age in your opinion? i hope we dont start fighting about this.

Holy Spirit baptism is essential to salvation. Titus 3:5 Holy Spirit baptism is administered by the Lord the minute a soul comes to Christ for salvation.

Water baptism is recommended but not essential in that it has not effect on salvation. Water baptism is the first important step in ones journey of sanctification. Water baptism is a step of obedience to declare ones salvation in Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[PJW]

There is no doubt that there are a few verse which would suggest that water baptism is necessary for salvation. Therefore the RCC (and possibly the EOC) believe in baptismal regeneration. But what do we see in Scripture, particularly in the book of Acts.
1. Salvation is by God's grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work of redemption (Acts 16:30,31)
2. Water baptism is a command of Christ, and should be preached along with the Gospel (Mt 28:18-20)
3. Water baptism must be administered immediately after conversion, or very shortly thereafter (Acts 10:44-48)
4. There is no need for "classes" before a person is baptized (Acts 8:35-39)
6. Any Christian brother may baptize a believer (Acts 9:17,18)

5. Water baptism is symbolic of the believer's death, burial, and resurrection with Christ (Rom 6:3,4)

I agree with you on everything but point #5.
I believe that baptism is our actual death, burial, and resurrection with Christ...to walk in newness of life.
It is how we "suffer with Christ" in 1 Peter 4:1. "[FONT=&quot]Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;"
[/FONT]
It is where the blood of Christ is applied for our sanctification, as we are actually in Christ on His cross.

 

[notuptome]

I agree with you on everything but point #5.
I believe that baptism is our actual death, burial, and resurrection with Christ...to walk in newness of life.
It is how we "suffer with Christ" in 1 Peter 4:1. "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;"

It is where the blood of Christ is applied for our sanctification, as we are actually in Christ on His cross.

Believing it does not make it so.

The bible does not teach that water baptism contributes to our eternal salvation. Wet or dry the Christian can never die.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[KelbyofGod]

I'll say it in somewhat reverse order... and leading to a conclusion that is in clear contradiction to what many believe is necessary/not necessary for salvation. I'll number the points for easy reference.

1. Consider Romans 6:5... "For IF we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:" Notice this is an IF statement.. there is a promise available if the criteria is met. Have you considered what happens if someone has NOT been planted in the likeness of his death?

2. Baptism is the mechanism by which we partake in his death. Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: ..." (Romans 6:3 saying almost the same thing).

3. There's more (which I'd be glad to share) but it seems more prudent to see what you think of this much first.
Thanks

 

[hornetguy]

I've been in so many "beat this to death" kind of discussions.... I'll just say I pretty much agree with posts #2 and #5 by Nehemiah....

The scriptures certainly teach that water baptism is essential in the life of a believer. It's NOT an "option"...... otherwise, why do it at all?

 

[Snoozy]

I'll say it in somewhat reverse order... and leading to a conclusion that is in clear contradiction to what many believe is necessary/not necessary for salvation. I'll number the points for easy reference.

1. Consider Romans 6:5... "For IF we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:" Notice this is an IF statement.. there is a promise available if the criteria is met. Have you considered what happens if someone has NOT been planted in the likeness of his death?

2. Baptism is the mechanism by which we partake in his death. Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: ..." (Romans 6:3 saying almost the same thing).

3. There's more (which I'd be glad to share) but it seems more prudent to see what you think of this much first.
Thanks

yeah those were the verses i was exactly looking at. i did a topic study and that IF in romans 6:5 caught me eye. and tehe acts 2:38

 

[Joidevivre]

What about the man on the cross crucified next to Jesus who was not baptized, yet Jesus told him that he would soon be with him in Paradise?

I've seen lots of people accept Christ (hospice work) right before they died, and they were not baptized. Surely, they were saved.

I was baptized as a teenager, yet did not really surrender myself to "die to self" at that time. Later in life, I went through a 'dying moment", and understanding the newness of walking in the Holy Spirit. Baptism could have given that me visual and tactile understanding (which is meant to do), but it did not. So, I think it is a heart thing, and baptism is just a public declaration of it.

 

[Jackson123]

ive been thinking about this a lot. i did some topic reading on baptism and i do believe in rightly diving the word of truth.

but mark 16:16, acts 2:38, romans 6:3-4, galatians 3:27, matthew 28:19 and 1 peter 3:21 look like baptism is part of the gospel and essential for salvation or atleast very very important.

but then luke 24:47 acts 16:31 john 3:16 and romans 3:25 that dont mention baptism.

sorry guys i wont be posting all da verses i listed it would be too long of a message i think. ive been baptized btw so this isnt myself that im thinking of but just doctrine in da usual.

What is the role of baptism in salvation? Is it part of the Gospel for the church age in your opinion? i hope we dont start fighting about this.

I vote no, the thief on the cross save without water baptism. It is only symbol and declaration for testimonial purpose

 

[Snoozy]

I vote no, the thief on the cross save without water baptism. It is only symbol and declaration for testimonial purpose

the testament wasnt in effect yet because Jesus hasnt died and resurrected yet and great commission to baptize wasnt given yet when that happened.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I believe that baptism is our actual death, burial, and resurrection with Christ...to walk in newness of life.

It is symbolic in that none of us were there in AD 30, when Christ was on the Cross, and when He was resurrected. It is not symbolic in that starting with believer's baptism by immersion, we are indeed to walk in newness of life. That is spiritual reality. We are to turn our backs on our sins and idols and walk by faith in the Spirit.

It is how we "suffer with Christ" in 1 Peter 4:1. "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;"

I don't see any suffering in baptism. Indeed it is always a joyful experience for the new believer and for those who witness his baptism. However, sufferings do follow, and many are several persecuted in many lands after they are baptized.

It is where the blood of Christ is applied for our sanctification, as we are actually in Christ on His cross.

The blood of Christ is applied immediately to the soul which comes to Him in repentance and faith. That is also when the sinner receives the gift of the Holy Spirit and is born again. So all of this is the supernatural work of God within the soul. Yes, we were all crucified with Christ and we live by the power of the Holy Spirit. But we must take these truths as spiritual.

 

[notuptome]

the testament wasnt in effect yet because Jesus hasnt died and resurrected yet and great commission to baptize wasnt given yet when that happened.

You incorrectly read the great commission. It's not about water baptism. Salvation is about belief and righteousness imputed by grace not conferred by water baptism.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[dcontroversal]

Immersion is to the N.T. what circumcision was to the O.T.

It is an identifier and picture of what has taken place in Christ. The death, burial of the old man and the resurrection of the NEW. It is the public testimony of faith in an outward act of obedience which has no bearing on the salvation one already possesses in Christ by faith.

Jesus was ALREADY the son of GOD before immersion.....

 

[Jackson123]

the testament wasnt in effect yet because Jesus hasnt died and resurrected yet and great commission to baptize wasnt given yet when that happened.

it may, but seem to me Jesus teach more about what is in your heart, not symbolic anymore.

for example when people ask what is the great law Jesus answere


[h=1]Matthew 22:36-40King James Version (KJV)[/h]36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

1 chorinthians 13

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

charity or love the greatest

You can do baptism, if no love what is the point?

I do not believe in the last judgment Jesus will ask : have you been baptized?

in matt 25 the question is did you love the needy?

matt 25


35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

 

[DJ2]

Labeling baptism as simply a symbolic ritual is very common in trust only regeneration theology. This notion is pushed by many of the faith alone sects and is based on the belief that verses such as John 3:16 and others are absolute, all encompassing and defintitive. With the acceptance of this view, other promises such as Acts 2:36, Mark 16:16 and 1st Peter 3:21 are ignored or twisted.

This theology is very common among tele-evangelists and should be avoided by anyone who supports a Bible only theology. A simple way to identify such groups is the repeating of the "sinners prayer" as a means to salvation. Much can be learned of these groups by simply googling this phrase.

 

[mailmandan]

To Bible is clear in its teachings that all Christians are expected to be baptized in water. On the other hand, the New Testament makes it equally clear that man is saved prior to receiving water baptism. These Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit and were manifesting the spiritual gift of tongues (spiritual gift which is only for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) after believing the gospel but before receiving water baptism (Acts 10:43-47).

Now baptism was not considered an "optional extra" for them; it was a command (Acts 10:48) that they were expected to obey. However, it was not obedience to this command that saved them, but their believing in Christ (Acts 10:43). Baptism is the expected initial outward response to the gospel, but it is not a part of the gospel itself (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

There are a handful of alleged proof texts (Acts 2:38; Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21 etc..) which are often cited to prove that the Bible makes baptism mandatory for salvation. However, a careful examination of each of these texts in context will show that none of them prove that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation, though they do prove that baptism is an initiatory response to the gospel of salvation. In other words, these texts prove only that baptism is regularly associated with conversion and salvation, rather than absolutely required for salvation.

There are multiple verses in scripture which make it clear that man is saved/receives eternal life through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications" - (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 4:4; 10:43; 11:17; 13:39; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-30; 4:2-6; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 15:1-4; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 1:13; 2:8; Philippians 3:9; 2 Thessalonians 1:10; 1 Timothy 1:16; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 4:3; 10:39; 1 John 5:4; 5:13 etc..).

*Surely, if water baptism was absolutely required for salvation, God would not make so many statements in which He promises salvation to those who simply BELIEVE IN HIM/PLACE FAITH IN JESUS FOR SALVATION.