WILL WE EVER RUN OUT OF HERETICS AND CHURCH CRITICS? I DOUBT IT.

[sparkman]

Having belonged to a cult that accused orthodox Christianity of being heretical and ignorant, I have little patience for this attitude.

However, it's not only organizations labeled as cults which have the problem; it's also individuals who think that God speaks to them closer than anyone else, and that they hear God better than anyone else, and that God has called them to correct the Church because of their superior discernment.

It's not that I can't figure out such individuals. I have been a diaper-wearing, bottle-sucking believer myself.

You know what I think the core issue is? Scripture describes the carnal mind as being futile and puffed up with pride. And, the new nature/being born again doesn't cause this futile state of mind to completely disappear. There is a remnant of the old nature called the flesh that continues to cause issues like this in our lives.

This aspect of the flesh seems to evade or deceive many believers. They are still caught up in the prideful, vain, self-important aspect of the flesh.

One might ask, do you think the orthodox church is ever wrong about any doctrine? Is it possible?

Yes, it's possible. In fact, it's probable that everyone has some area they don't understand correctly, including me. However, on central aspects of Christianity (the essentials), it's more likely that if I think the evangelical church is wrong about something, then I am the one with the misunderstanding.

At a shallow level, it may APPEAR like evangelical Christianity is wrong on something, but the more and more I study Scripture, and understand the entire word of God, the more the evangelical Christian view makes sense on any given topic. From a shallow, bottle-sucker level, I may think my logic is infallible and that the church is clearly wrong on a doctrine, but as I dig deeper, I find that there are legitimate reasons why the church holds a given doctrinal position.

These sorts of issues, requiring a deeper understanding, are the very ones that cults use as leverage to draw people into their aberrant theology. Been there, done that, bought the T Shirt. I trust the evangelical church (and the Bible) more than nutty cultists or anyone on a chat forum espousing such views.

In fact, I think Satan sometimes uses forums like this to spread cancerous doctrines.

Anyways, I don't think we'll run out of nutty cultists and conspiracy theorists anytime in the near future.

 

[Snoozy]

yes i agree.

something is always wrong with church.
everyone was wrong until they came along, surprise surprise.

 

[Prov910]

I think this is exactly what Paul was speaking about in Romans 14—about there being different ways to worship God and different things being kept holy.
.

5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat.
​

.
We'd all be better off if we weren't so judgmental in regards to the beliefs and worship habits of others. /jmho

 

[stonesoffire]

Probably not. We kinda like them around here.

 

[Lighthearted]

As long as Satan is free to interfere with our beliefs and our understanding, NO! Satan is the god of confusion and hate...Jesus Christ is the EVERLASTING GOD of understanding and love!

 

[Prov910]

As long as Satan is free to interfere with our beliefs and our understanding, NO! Satan is the god of confusion and hate...Jesus Christ is the EVERLASTING GOD of understanding and love!

Yeah, I imagine Satan is actively attempting to influence religion. And he's probably been at it forever. It makes sense that, in order to draw people away from God, Satan would attempt to infiltrate the church and change the message. Oh, I wouldn't expect a big change. Just a nudge away from God's word here and there. Like lies—if you're going to fabricate a story, the best lie is 99% true.

 

[Enow]

Having belonged to a cult that accused orthodox Christianity of being heretical and ignorant, I have little patience for this attitude.

However, it's not only organizations labeled as cults which have the problem; it's also individuals who think that God speaks to them closer than anyone else, and that they hear God better than anyone else, and that God has called them to correct the Church because of their superior discernment.

It's not that I can't figure out such individuals.

Can you figure out the consequence if they don't say something?

Like those who profess tongues to be used privately and the majority testify of having an experience separate from salvation by which they had received that kind of tongue. Then you have those that take that fumble of doubts growing in saved believers that do not speak in tongues and run with that football even further by saying if you do not speak in tongues, you do not have the Holy Spirit, and therefore you are not saved.

So what do we do then? Just ignore it while tongue speakers are promoting that kind of tongues, indirectly preaching to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation, because we might look like the bad guy for speaking against it altogether?

Then you have the sabbath day keepers saying that the Lord will hold it against professing believers if they profane the sabbath. Some will go so far as to say they are not saved because only those who are saved loves His law to keep the sabbath. Then a few will top it with faith without works is dead; and thus no one is really saved believer if they break the sabbath.

Then you have the Billy Graham Crusade telling you that it is not going to church every Sunday that is going to save you; it is not by keeping the ten commandments that is going to save you. It is all those who call upon the name of the Lord. That is the gospel, but the altar call is the opposite of what Billy Graham had just said.

The altar call goes like this; "if you are not sure you are saved, come forward and make a commitment to follow Christ." What does that mean to keep that commitment to follow Christ to get that assurance of salvation? Going to church every Sunday; keeping the ten commandments and more because His standard is higher than the works of the law when it deals with the inside of man; his heart. You can bet that many believers are not sure they are saved seeking assurance of salvation that way. What ever happened to those who call upon the name of the Lord are save?

Then you have holy rollers promoting to receive the Holy Spirit after sensational signs in the flesh like in "slain in the spirit" and the "holy laughter" movement and the Pensacola Outpouring and the Toronto's Blessings which has confusion in it. Tongue speakers that promote receiving the Holy Spirit apart from salvation or promote that second blessing, cannot stop the promotion for those wild encounters when it is after the same rudiment of seeking to receive the Holy Spirit after a sign.

So there is a spiritual roller coaster ride we have to watch out for as well as the legalism of a heavy yoke in carrying burdens as if up a mountain that moves us away from our resting place in Christ Jesus in taking our eyes off of Him.

So.. God be willing, there will be no end to tearing down "stuck up" christians that would remove the joy of our salvation by preaching to believers to look to themselves to obtain that which God has promised to give by faith in Jesus Christ.

Jesus said this;

Luke 12:1 In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Anyways, I don't think we'll run out of nutty cultists and conspiracy theorists anytime in the near future.

That may be true, but just because there are conspiracy theorists does not mean that there are no conspiracies in existence. We are presently seeing several conspiracies playing out in the political realm.

But setting that aside for the moment, heretics and church critics cannot be lumped together. There are legitimate critics (such as the Lord and the apostles, see Revelation 1-3) and there are illegitimate critics (simply trying to pull everything down no matter how good). The Lord not only commended the seven churches in Asia where commendation was due, but He also severely criticized them for the false doctrines, false teachers and prophets, and false practices which they had allowed to flourish.

And heretics and apostates is a better combination, since those are the people who attack Gospel truth and Bible truth. Heresies began to enter the churches even while the apostles were alive, and today they are taking over the evangelical and fundamentalist churches, while the cults are growing at a faster rate than sound Bible churches.

It is the responsibility of church elders to protect their churches from heresies and false teachings. Unfortunately that is become rarer and rarer, even though both Peter and Paul admonished the elders to take their responsibilities very seriously.

It is also the responsibility of every believer to study the Word of God diligently, and to expose error when necessary. That is why we have this Scripture, which though addressed primarily to the pastor/elders, is addressed to all Christians:

Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. (2 Tim 4:2)

 

[Nehemiah6]

Yeah, I imagine Satan is actively attempting to influence religion. And he's probably been at it forever. It makes sense that, in order to draw people away from God, Satan would attempt to infiltrate the church and change the message. Oh, I wouldn't expect a big change. Just a nudge away from God's word here and there. Like lies—if you're going to fabricate a story, the best lie is 99% true.

Correct on all points. Ultimately all false teachings and practices can be traced back to the influence of Satan and his evil angels on Christians or professing Christians. One can study the demise of many prominent Christians who started out on a sound biblical basis, but who gradually compromised the truth until they began to teach lies. Most of the cults started in that fashion.

What Christians must clearly understand that it is not "our" truth that is on the line but God's truth. It is God's Gospel and God's doctrine which has been entrusted to the Church (genuine believers). So we dare not play games with Divine revelation

 

[Nehemiah6]

Having belonged to a cult that accused orthodox Christianity of being heretical and ignorant, I have little patience for this attitude.

We need to distinguish between "Orthodox Christianity" and "Bible Christianity" since they are not identical. The Orthodox churches hold to many Bible teachings, but they preach "another gospel", and do not believe in justification by grace through faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption.

 

[sparkman]

Regarding this thread, when I say "orthodoxy" I meant biblical Christianity, and not Eastern Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy is sound doctrine and heterodoxy is not.

As an additional item, I've seen two different individuals who are trying to come up with their own version of the Bible..their own translation..because they are promoting heretical doctrines.

These two individuals come to mind concerning the main point of my thread. Somehow, in their mind, they think the "truths" they are promoting, including denying the deity of Jesus, have evaded the orthodox church for 2000 years.

As I said, these attitudes are a strong indication, in my mind, that the promoters are dwelling in the fallen nature that considers itself to be the infallible, impartial arbitrator of truth, and uniquely qualified to criticize the church on BASIC Christian doctrine. Whether they are actually saved or not, I don't know.

I would also associate these activities with AUTONOMOUS individuals who are not operating within the context of the Church, as often they are lone ranger, isolated nuts not involved in the fellowship of the saints. I don't believe that anyone operating in that context is qualified to criticize the Church, which they are not a part of.

One might argue that the Church is a spiritual organism. I agree with that, but the spiritual organism is involved in local, face-to-face assemblies where the elements of communion, church discipline, corporate worship, and fellowship are being exercised. So, the spiritual organism coexists with the physical assembly at some level.

In my remarks, I am obviously not addressing those who are homebound or legitimately constrained regarding fellowship. I've been in that situation myself.

 

[Adstar]

1 Corinthians 11: KJV
18 "For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. {19} For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you."

Those who put forward false interpretations of scripture and produce false doctrines serve a vital purpose.. They provoke those who are being lead by the Holy Spirit to investigate the scriptures with the guidance of the Holy Spirit so that they can Both grow in the knowledge of salvation and bless others who are also open to the leading of the Holy Spirit when they refute the false interpretations of scripture and show that false doctrines to be false..

 

[Adstar]

Regarding this thread, when I say "orthodoxy" I meant biblical Christianity, and not Eastern Orthodoxy.

Pheww i am glad you clarified this.. We have to go the extra mile ( or kilometer if your metric minded ) to make sure our posts are as well defined as possible..

 

[PHart]

18For with much wisdom comes much sorrow;the more knowledge, the more grief." (Ecclesiastes 1:18 NIV)

At least for now he's happy and smiling, lol.

 

[mailmandan]

Having belonged to a cult that accused orthodox Christianity of being heretical and ignorant, I have little patience for this attitude.

However, it's not only organizations labeled as cults which have the problem; it's also individuals who think that God speaks to them closer than anyone else, and that they hear God better than anyone else, and that God has called them to correct the Church because of their superior discernment.

It's not that I can't figure out such individuals. I have been a diaper-wearing, bottle-sucking believer myself.

You know what I think the core issue is? Scripture describes the carnal mind as being futile and puffed up with pride. And, the new nature/being born again doesn't cause this futile state of mind to completely disappear. There is a remnant of the old nature called the flesh that continues to cause issues like this in our lives.

This aspect of the flesh seems to evade or deceive many believers. They are still caught up in the prideful, vain, self-important aspect of the flesh.

One might ask, do you think the orthodox church is ever wrong about any doctrine? Is it possible?

Yes, it's possible. In fact, it's probable that everyone has some area they don't understand correctly, including me. However, on central aspects of Christianity (the essentials), it's more likely that if I think the evangelical church is wrong about something, then I am the one with the misunderstanding.

At a shallow level, it may APPEAR like evangelical Christianity is wrong on something, but the more and more I study Scripture, and understand the entire word of God, the more the evangelical Christian view makes sense on any given topic. From a shallow, bottle-sucker level, I may think my logic is infallible and that the church is clearly wrong on a doctrine, but as I dig deeper, I find that there are legitimate reasons why the church holds a given doctrinal position.

These sorts of issues, requiring a deeper understanding, are the very ones that cults use as leverage to draw people into their aberrant theology. Been there, done that, bought the T Shirt. I trust the evangelical church (and the Bible) more than nutty cultists or anyone on a chat forum espousing such views.

In fact, I think Satan sometimes uses forums like this to spread cancerous doctrines.

Anyways, I don't think we'll run out of nutty cultists and conspiracy theorists anytime in the near future.

Amen! I have little patience for this attitude as well. People who are mixed up in cults and false religions are generally individuals who think that God speaks to them closer than anyone else, and that they hear God better than anyone else, and that God has called them to correct the Church because of their superior discernment. Such people are motivated by PRIDE.

The apostle Paul spoke of such people in Acts 20:28 - Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.

 

[PHart]

...individuals who think that God speaks to them closer than anyone else, and that they hear God better than anyone else, and that God has called them to correct the Church because of their superior discernment. Such people are motivated by PRIDE..

But at the same time, it's sad that we don't have anybody in the church with superior discernment to lead us. You know, a Paul, or a Peter.

 

[preacher4truth]

But at the same time, it's sad that we don't have anybody in the church with superior discernment to lead us. You know, a Paul, or a Peter.

Wait a minute, you've by so many words proclaimed yourself as such by telling us all how nearly the entire church is wrong, that you're right in comparison, that you have the gospel right, and that others have it all wrong.

You've damned the church so many times in this forum that your words are hollow.

 

[Joidevivre]

But at the same time, it's sad that we don't have anybody in the church with superior discernment to lead us. You know, a Paul, or a Peter.

What? Paul and Peter only had the Holy Spirit to give them superior discernment. We who are in Christ, have the same Holy Spirit and Jesus said that with Him, we would be led into all truth.

If we are not being led correctly, we are not prayerfully meditating on the Scriptures. And we are not listening to His voice that brings us understanding. Too many people are just taking in what they hear in church Sunday morning. Yet, there is nothing like you, the bible, and the Holy Spirit.

 

[PHart]

Wait a minute, you've by so many words proclaimed yourself as such by telling us all how nearly the entire church is wrong, that you're right in comparison, that you have the gospel right, and that others have it all wrong.

You've damned the church so many times in this forum that your words are hollow.

Feel better?
Now address my point: We don't have a Peter or a Paul with superior discernment of truth in the church to lead us. Are you content with accepting this fact? I'm not.

Anybody who can read, and is honestly seeking truth can see that what the church teaches and what the Bible says do not line up. We don't even have any leaders to point this out. Where are the Elijah's and Jeremiah's of our day?

 

[PHart]

What? Paul and Peter only had the Holy Spirit to give them superior discernment. We who are in Christ, have the same Holy Spirit and Jesus said that with Him, we would be led into all truth.

If we are not being led correctly, we are not prayerfully meditating on the Scriptures. And we are not listening to His voice that brings us understanding. Too many people are just taking in what they hear in church Sunday morning. Yet, there is nothing like you, the bible, and the Holy Spirit.

I agree. But if I came right out and said this I would have been attacked by the lkes of preacher4truth. Oh, wait.....I didn't even have to say that to have him attack me, lol.