WILL WE EVER RUN OUT OF HERETICS AND CHURCH CRITICS? I DOUBT IT.

[preacher4truth]

Yet, there is nothing like you, the bible, and the Holy Spirit.

IKR? This is where most of heresy stems; from the "you, the Bible and the Holy Spirit" fallacy. Most, if not all teachings derived from this lone ranger mentality are in error, out of context and heterodox if not outright heretical.

Which is why we have passages such as Ephesians 4:11ff, and many others.

 

[preacher4truth]

Feel better?

Not really, just putting it into proper perspective. I've described you by your own track record. Either run with it to its logical and foolish end, or recant your assumed position described based upon what you've stated here numerous times.

 

[Joidevivre]

PHart, I disagree with you about there being no one in the churches with discernment. There are many spirit-filled pastors and teachers. You just haven't been around much.

There are many that are not even pastors and teachers who are all over this site. I recognize the voice of Jesus in them. Why can't you?

 

[PHart]

...recant your assumed position described based upon what you've stated here numerous times.

How ironic coming from someone who calls themselves 'preacher4truth'. Maybe we can trade screen names, lol.

 

[Joidevivre]

IKR? This is where most of heresy stems; from the "you, the Bible and the Holy Spirit" fallacy. Most, if not all teachings derived from this lone ranger mentality are in error, out of context and heterodox if not outright heretical.

Which is why we have passages such as Ephesians 4:11ff, and many others.

Hold on - I was in churches all my life. Still am. It is just that for the real intimacy and more insight (but not contradiction), I find being in prayer over scripture adds so much more dimension.

 

[PHart]

PHart, I disagree with you about there being no one in the churches with discernment. There are many spirit-filled pastors and teachers. You just haven't been around much.

There are many that are not even pastors and teachers who are all over this site. I recognize the voice of Jesus in them. Why can't you?

No, no, no.....you misunderstand. Where do these leaders exist and operate on a church wide level? They don't. God is communicating his truth through individual leaders in various places in the earth.

(Hold on to your hat, here's one for preacher4truth, lol...)

I had the God given privilege of having a retired television ministry host as my father and mentor in the faith, and I learned tons under his ministry. So I know gifted, discerning leaders exist. They just don't rule in the church these days.

The Truth is a private matter of the heart these days. It's you, your Bible, and the Holy Spirit, and if God sees to it, a gifted leader in the church to gather you and other honest seekers together in Spirit led instruction, praise and worship, prayer, and fellowship.

 

[PHart]

Hold on - I was in churches all my life. Still am. It is just that for the real intimacy and more insight (but not contradiction), I find being in prayer over scripture adds so much more dimension.

It's the opposite for me. It's all about the Bible, and everything else is energized from that.

 

[preacher4truth]

It is of note the persons decrying there being "no discernment in the church" are really stating they have and possess this "discernment" themselves, while pointing the finger arrogantly at "the church." They couldn't "discern" this to be true unless they possessed what they say is missing "everywhere else."

These have made themselves a pedestal, are always pointing to themselves. These are the ones who can see, and the entirety of Christendom, themselves excluded, are in the wrong.

This is all so lame, self-serving and untrue. It is "Hey, look at me, I'm calling out the church! Not me of course, it is the church. Non one else believes the true Gospel, but I do! Too bad there aren't others like me in the church!"

There are many many "discerning" preachers, pastors, theologians, teachers, lay persons. God has not left himself without a witness, and has reserved to himself, as always, his remnant. His church is intact.

 

[pottersclay]

Amen! I have little patience for this attitude as well. People who are mixed up in cults and false religions are generally individuals who think that God speaks to them closer than anyone else, and that they hear God better than anyone else, and that God has called them to correct the Church because of their superior discernment. Such people are motivated by PRIDE.

The apostle Paul spoke of such people in Acts 20:28 - Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.

A true Shepherd of the flock will always point to Christ. Jesus himself always pointed to the father. Jesus made himself of no reputation. Jesus never gloried in his own abilities but constantly thank God for using him. He delighted in pleasing the father. Just some trademarks of a good Shepherd.
If anyone wants to learn more of God then follow Jesus. Sadly no man seeks after God but some have made the mistake in sharing in his glory with he shares with no one.

 

[preacher4truth]

Hold on - I was in churches all my life. Still am. It is just that for the real intimacy and more insight (but not contradiction), I find being in prayer over scripture adds so much more dimension.

I'm not arguing against intimacy with God nor insight. But the insight thing is purely subjective, leading, and needs examined in light of the truth of Scripture, proper context, and exegesis and must always be subject to correction in spite of the person "feeling' God has spoken to them personally.

Many times in the latter situation the person is incorrect, unteachable, and will not be corrected by proper handling of the Word, 2 Timothy 2:15.

Bottom line it is very dangerous in many situations.

None of us would possess biblical acumen (proper, exegetical and contextual truth, John 17:17) without the church. God has the church and teachers in place as a check and balance.

 

[PHart]

There are many many "discerning" preachers, pastors, theologians, teachers, lay persons. God has not left himself without a witness, and has reserved to himself, as always, his remnant. His church is intact.

And let me guess, you're one of them, right? Yet you trash me simply because you think I'm saying I'm one of them.

 

[PHart]

But the insight thing is purely subjective, leading, and needs examined in light of the truth of Scripture, proper context, and exegesis and must always be subject to correction in spite of the person "feeling' God has spoken to them personally.

Many times in the latter situation the person is incorrect, unteachable, and will not be corrected by proper handling of the Word, 2 Timothy 2:15.

Bottom line it is very dangerous in many situations.

None of us would possess biblical acumen (proper, exegetical and contextual truth, John 17:17) without the church. God has the church and teachers in place as a check and balance.

Except if you're Calvinist....then you are above all this. And they will let you know it in no uncertain terms in their characteristic Calvinist vitriol.

 

[NayborBear]

(quoted from OP)

"At a shallow level, it may APPEAR like evangelical Christianity is wrong on something, but the more and more I study Scripture, and understand the entire word of God, the more the evangelical Christian view makes sense on any given topic. From a shallow, bottle-sucker level, I may think my logic is infallible and that the church is clearly wrong on a doctrine, but as I dig deeper, I find that there are legitimate reasons why the church holds a given doctrinal position."

In your opinion, is it, or would it be a correct interpretation, that Jesus of Nazareth abolished "the law?"
Or? Would it, or should it be considered, that the missing the mark of "the law", are covered BY the "love that covers a multitude of "sin" (short coming/s missing the mark). And,By loving their neighbor, as themselves, are not abolishing the law, at all!

By "the law", I'm referring to the Torah, or Levitical law. Not, the "law", as it had apostasized to, when Christ arrived on the scene.

 

[preacher4truth]

Except if you're Calvinist....then you are above all this. And they will let you know it in no uncertain terms in their characteristic Calvinist vitriol.

No, that is a straw man from top to bottom and is your common practice to slander others, and more importantly all in the church as being off track and preaching a a false message, except of course for you.

There are very many who are not Calvinist who believe in the true Gospel, and are my brothers and sisters. Christ saved them eternally, this salvation cannot be lost, dispossessed or forfeited. These have believed this Gospel and have completely trusted in Christ's work which has saved them from being foreknown to being glorified, all completed actions which cannot be undone.

Any other message that suggests one adding to or maintaining salvation, improperly taking Scripture out of context to prove loss of salvation &c are preaching a works gospel, and another gospel altogether.

 

[NayborBear]

Amen! I have little patience for this attitude as well. People who are mixed up in cults and false religions are generally individuals who think that God speaks to them closer than anyone else, and that they hear God better than anyone else, and that God has called them to correct the Church because of their superior discernment. Such people are motivated by PRIDE.

The apostle Paul spoke of such people in Acts 20:28 - Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.

According to this comment? NOBODY!! Is "worthy" in (a) correcting an assemblage of believers! Not Paul, Not Peter, Not Barnabas, nor Timothy, Not John, not NOBODY! Because ALL That they taught, were coming from a source of PRIDE? Because, according to your post, these people did claim, that they heard God, better then everyone else! And, did claim (a) superior discernment!

Or, is it that EVERYONE coming AFTER those that strived in their establishing of "the church", are those "savage wolves?"

Guess, I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

 

[PHart]

No, that is a straw man from top to bottom and is your common practice to slander others, and more importantly all in the church as being off track and preaching a a false message, except of course for you.

There are very many who are not Calvinist who believe in the true Gospel, and are my brothers and sisters. Christ saved them eternally, this salvation cannot be lost, dispossessed or forfeited. These have believed this Gospel and have completely trusted in Christ's work which has saved them from being foreknown to being glorified, all completed actions which cannot be undone.

Any other message that suggests one adding to or maintaining salvation, improperly taking Scripture out of context to prove loss of salvation &c are preaching a works gospel, and another gospel altogether.

So, if I don't believe like you do I'm heretical?

 

[louis]

One might ask, do you think the orthodox church is ever wrong about any doctrine? Is it possible?

Yes, it's possible. In fact, it's probable that everyone has some area they don't understand correctly, including me. However, on central aspects of Christianity (the essentials), it's more likely that if I think the evangelical church is wrong about something, then I am the one with the misunderstanding.

According to Revelation 12:9, the devil is currently deceiving the whole world. This would explain why there are so many contradicting opinions on just about everything. The devil masquerades as the Lord's illumination, while in reality he provides all of us his false illumination (2 Corinthians 11:14).

Revelation 12:9 [FONT=&quot]And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

[/FONT]2 Corinthians 11:14 [FONT=&quot]And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.[/FONT]

 

[PHart]

According to this comment? NOBODY!! Is "worthy" in (a) correcting an assemblage of believers! Not Paul, Not Peter, Not Barnabas, nor Timothy, Not John, not NOBODY! Because ALL That they taught, were coming from a source of PRIDE? Because, according to your post, these people did claim, that they heard God, better then everyone else! And, did claim (a) superior discernment!

Or, is it that EVERYONE coming AFTER those that strived in their establishing of "the church", are those "savage wolves?"

Guess, I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

That's what I got out of it too.

 

[dcontroversal]

PHart, I disagree with you about there being no one in the churches with discernment. There are many spirit-filled pastors and teachers. You just haven't been around much.

There are many that are not even pastors and teachers who are all over this site. I recognize the voice of Jesus in them. Why can't you?

Well....when you compare the sealing of the Holy Spirit to a bowl of left over lasagna that can be unsealed, push that you have to keep yourself saved and deny Christ, his promises and power in the process....the answer is obvious to your question.

 

[PHart]

Well....when you compare the sealing of the Holy Spirit to a bowl of left over lasagna that can be unsealed, push that you have to keep yourself saved and deny Christ, his promises and power in the process....the answer is obvious to your question.

Yes, yes, dcon, we know you are one of those discerning teachers, too.