SOUL SLEEP DOCTRINE

[sparkman]

I was taught the soul sleep doctrine as a young man. This doctrine is commonly held by Seventh Day Adventists and members of the Armstrongite cults.

I no longer hold this position. I would like to give part of the reason for rejecting it in this post.

One, those who hold the position claim that there is no consciousness outside of the body. I disagree with this position because Paul gave indication that there is a consciousness outside of the body, prior to the resurrection. Two, there are Scriptures to support the other view, which is that there is a conscious state outside of the body, prior to the resurrection. Three, the history of church doctrine indicates that it is the prevalent view.

The last point doesn't carry much weight with cultists, as often their attempt is to malign and to create suspicion about Christianity, often claiming that both Roman Catholicism and Protestantism are false versions of the true faith, which they claim to represent. And, part of their bag of tricks is to exploit these sorts of issues with this intention.

And, as many of you know, I take great glee in exposing their folly in this regard from an insider's perspective

Anyways, I am doing a New Testament Bible reading plan (reading through the NT in 2018) with some friends on Facebook (if any of you want to join, let me know but you'd need to add me first as a friend - I'm not looking for argumentative sorts). Until January 1, I am reading from the book of John, and doing some in depth study, at the request of some of the members.

These are my notes today from John 11:11, related to this topic:

Sleep in Scripture is often used as a euphemism relating to death of believers, as Christ indicates in v. 14. Believers will awake in the resurrection.

Lazarus was not sleeping in the physical sense of sleep that we would use the word.

Note that Jesus said that he was going to wake him up, so the disciples knew that Lazarus was going to be resurrected.

There are two views concerning the intermediate stage between death and the resurrection.

The predominant view in Christianity is that the Christian who dies in the conscious presence of Christ. This is the view that I hold.

The minority view is that the Christian who dies is in an unconscious state between death and the resurrection. This view is called "soul sleep". I have held this view in the past.

"Soul sleep" is often held by individuals who deny the "immortal soul" doctrine that mankind has an immortal spirit component as part of their nature. In the case of Armstrongites (I was an Armstrongite as a young Christian), they believe that mankind has a spirit component, but that it is not conscious between death and the resurrection.

A lot of their support comes from the book of Ecclesiastes. I believe they are taking the verses out of context, as Solomon was discussing a world view apart from God in the earlier chapters of Ecclesiastes. It is a pessimistic view that reflects the futility of human life apart from a knowledge of God and the purpose of human life. Solomon was describing this worldview and the futile thinking it generates.

So, I believe they are not practicing proper hermeneutics by taking verses out of context in an attempt to make their points. In addition, I don't believe the Old Testament was as explicit about the state of the dead as the New Testament.

The Old Testament was earlier in the stream of God's revelation concerning this issue, as well as some other issues. The Old Testament needs to be viewed in light of the New Testament, not vice versa. This is a controversial point with some, especially the Hebrew Roots Movement.

Most Christians would consider "sleep" to be a metaphor which relates to death, and may relate it to the appearance of the physical body which looks like the person is sleeping.

Here are some verses which indicate death as represented by sleep:

Daniel 12:2
Acts 7:60
1 Co 11:30
1 Co 15:51
1Th 4:13

2 Co 5:8-9 indicate that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord..and that our goal either way is to please him. This cannot be a reference to the resurrection as the individual has a glorified body in the resurrection. Philippians 1:23, Luke 16:19-31, 23:43 also give hints of a consciousness before the resurrection, so my conviction is that there is a conscious state as a disembodied spirit between death and the resurrection.

Paul's account of the man who was taken up to the third heaven is also another hint in this regard. 2 Corinthians 12:1-6 records this account. It's obvious he didn't know if he was in the body or not, so that tells me that there is a consciousness outside of the body from Paul's perspective. Therefore, the fundamental presuppositions of some soul sleep advocates is faulty.

I do not consider those who hold the "soul sleep" view, but otherwise hold normal evangelical Christian doctrine, to be heretical, though, as Martin Luther held it himself. I don't agree with the view due to the Scriptural references I have made and the weight of the history of Christian teaching on the issue.

 

[sparkman]

Here's a paper John Calvin did on soul sleep (the technical name is psychopannychia) ..notice his title..it's pretty hilarious. Theologians back then didn't mince words.

Title: [h=2]PSYCHOPANNYCHIA[/h]OR,
A REFUTATION OF THE ERROR ENTERTAINED
BY SOME UNSKILFUL PERONS,
WHO IGNORANTLY IMAGINE THAT
IN THE INTERVAL BETWEEN DEATH AND THE JUDGMENT
THE SOUL SLEEPS.
TOGETHER WITH AN EXPLANATION
OF THE CONDITION AND LIFE OF THE SOUL AFTER THIS PRESENT LIFE.

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/calvin_psychopannychia.html

 

[Joidevivre]

I believe that once you are out of our time zone in death, there is no longer time as we know it.

So, even if there was soul sleep, the person who died would be instantly awake with the Lord - they would not even know that they had "waited". So, all the arguments back and forth are a waste of time to me.

So what would be the point of believing in it?

 

[trofimus]

I personally believe that Christians go to Christ (to paradise or to heaven, not sure) and unbelievers into hádés, the underworld, where their existence can be like in a dream, sleepy.

After the resurrection, they will be fully awaken, judged and thrown into the lake of fire, together with the hádés (underworld).

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

The "Soul Sleep" doctrine is a belief of the SDA Church.

 

[humbledbygrace25]

I will not hide the fact that I am a Seventh Day Adventist. The idea of "Soul sleep" seems to match the biblical record of the Bible. Did not David "sleep with his fathers"? What about all the people who "slept with their fathers". Also, I think it is important to understand what death is. According to the Bible: what is death? When you "go down into silence" as is stated in Ecclesiastes, I don't think that is metaphorical. What are the dangers in believing that a soul goes directly to heaven after death? I believe this is important because spiritualism will use this as a vehicle to undermine the Word of God. Demons come posing as dead relatives and this is used as a way to confuse people. Deception is the name of the game in this instance. So why not take Jesus at His Word. The arguments about death in this room being "symbolic," seem to re-tell the old lie in the garden: "did God really say". Why can't we take Him at His Word on this one? Where do we get the idea from the old testament that death was anything other than a sleep. Was not the idea of the "immortal soul" a greek theory that was brought into the church through her corruption in mixing and not requiring those joining to yield up their "vain superstitions" I speak this way because every church and person is susceptable to bringing their own theories and ideas to bear on the Word of God.

Finally, put another way, why is it so important that the soul of a person immediately goes to heaven upon dying?

 

[humbledbygrace25]

In regards to your argument about why Solomon wrote Ecclesiastes, notice verse 13 of chapter 1: "And I gave my heart ot seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith" Notice that Solomon is including every man, not just the heathen that don't believe in God.

So then Solomon has grouped everyone together, both the believer and the unbeliever, and put them under the same rules, as is the case here. That means that he is writing to believers and unbelievers as well. The things he is writing are from the experience of his own life to everyone. It is kind of like the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. The truth applies to everyone regardless of where they come from or their belief structure or religion that they were raised in. Isaiah 26: 19-20: Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in the dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.. Also notice what Paul says in the New Testament Romans 6:5 "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection." Did Jesus go directly to heaven or hell after He died? No! He slept until His Father called Him forth. Sure, death happens, and it is a separation from consciousness and existance, but we are held in the arms of the Omnipotent until He shall see fit to call us forth at His coming. Another verse is 2 Corinthians 4:14 "Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus and shall present us with you." I love the fact that everyone goes to heaven together! What a reunion! What a joy, we all go together. No one is left behind that has lived and believed! Notice Hebrews 11:39-40: "39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."

 

[NayborBear]

Soul "sleep?"...I don't buy it! The term "sleep", as used in the Bible, IMHO, has been "packed" with so many variations of definitions over the course of translatings, and transliteratings, t'wouldst be an "Honest Mistaking", of using the word "sleep", to include "death", of the flesh, along with a term that resembles death, yet, isn't. Atrophy, is a "form" of death, which really isn't. Of which differing cultures, over the course of 100's er 1,000's of years? Might find the term "atrophy" a bit rough in correctly displaying in print. "What's this word mean?"...."Uhhh?"..."Sleep?"..."Yeah?"..."It fits!" "Then sleep, is shall be!" Kind of firing a "volley", if you will, at the "Bible is inerrant, crowd." Which, in these eyes, aren't any different then a box of rocks, or that white stuff ya see in chicken poop! I could go on and on. But, main thing is: The Luther Burbank, aspect of God, as it pertains to "The Grafting PROCESS?" And, let's face it folks! Some Christians are more "grafted", then others. Just as, some Christians are more "willing" to be grafted, then others. Because, it is an empirical type of "process." Not DONE by HUMAN hands! Plus? (and here comes the tough nut to crack), It MUST be done in a CERTAIN WAY! IN, a CERTAIN ORDER! Or else? One shall find there self, coming back, and coming back, again, and again, and again. Having the enemy whispering in your ear during, each and EVERY successful piece/part of "grafting" "This is well enough, for you!" "You can go live your life now!" And? As it seems, many Christians fall for this! Enough so, that many many, did I say many? Denominations have emerged from "doing what is "right", in their eyes!

 

[prove-all]

Poisoning the well
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well

Poisoning the well (also called the smear tactic) is a rhetorical technique and
logical fallacy that uses the association of negative emotions to distract a
subject from actual evidence in an argument.

Poisoning the well is an appeal to hate.

The usual method is to point out the unpleasant nature of the person making
the opposing argument, in which case it is a special case of a personal attack
or ad hominem. In general, "to poison the well" means to pre-provide any
information that could produce a biased opinion of the reasoning, positive or negative.


It can be done subtly or quite blatantly.

-

some here always starts by "Poisoning the well"
attacks on others to make them look honest.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I will not hide the fact that I am a Seventh Day Adventist. The idea of "Soul sleep" seems to match the biblical record of the Bible. Did not David "sleep with his fathers"? What about all the people who "slept with their fathers".

Yes we do have these statements in the Old Testament, but in order to arrive at any Bible doctrine, one must take everything from both Testaments, and failure to do so leads to false doctrine.

Also, I think it is important to understand what death is. According to the Bible: what is death?

There are two deaths mentioned in the Bible. The first death and the second death. In the first death the soul and spirit are separated from the body, and since burial is common to both Jews and Christians, the dead body "sleeps" in the grave (or gives the appearance of sleep when laid to rest in the grave). The second death is eternal separation of the sinner from God in the Lake of Fire.

When you "go down into silence" as is stated in Ecclesiastes, I don't think that is metaphorical.

No it is not metaphorical and the OT saints remained silent in Abraham's Bosom in Sheol/Hades until the resurrection of Christ. What Christians must focus on is what happened after His resurrection.

What are the dangers in believing that a soul goes directly to heaven after death?

It is laughable to think that there are *dangers* in believing that the saints of God go to Heaven, since Heaven (more precisely the New Jerusalem in Heaven) is their eternal home, and that is where all the saints are presently located. See Hebrews 12:22-24.

Finally, put another way, why is it so important that the soul of a person immediately goes to heaven upon dying?

Because that is where God and Christ are, and that is where the saints belong. You keep talking about "a person" rather than distinguishing between those who belong to Christ and those who are not saved. So let us see what happened at the time that Stephen was stoned to death. Where did his body go and where did his spirit (and soul) go (Acts 7:54-8:2):

​

54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,

58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him.

Please note that this is speaking about Stephen's death and burial, where his body is metaphorically said to fall asleep. But since he asked the Lord to receive his spirit, and the Lord is in Heaven, guess where his soul and spirit went?

 

[Hizikyah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Job 12:10, in whose hand is the life of all that live, and the breath of all mankind?"[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Daniel 5:23, “And you have lifted yourself up against the Master of the heavens. And they brought before you the vessels of His house, and you and your great men, your wives and your concubines, have been drinking wine from them. And you have praised the elahin of silver, and of gold, of bronze, of iron, of wood, and of stone, which neither see nor hear nor know. But the Elah who holds your breath in His hand and owns all your ways, you have not made great."[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Luke 23:46, And crying out with a loud voice, [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]said, “Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit.” Psa 31:5 And having said this, He breathed His last."[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Ecclesiastes 9:5, For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know naught, nor do they have any more reward, for their remembrance is forgotten."Ecclesiastes 9:6, Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy have now perished; and they no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun."[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Job 14:21, His sons come to esteem, and he does not know it. And they are brought low, and he does not perceive it."[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:26, For as the body without the spirit is dead, so also the belief is dead without the works."[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Ecclesiastes 2:16, For there is no more lasting remembrance of the wise than of the fool, since in the days to come all is forgotten. And how does a wise man die? With the fool!"[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalms 115:17, The dead do not praise Yah, Nor any going down to silence."[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalms 13:3, “Look! Answer me, O [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]my Strength; Enlighten my eyes, Lest I sleep in death.”[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Job 14:12, “and man shall lie down and not rise. Till the heavens are no more, they awake not, nor are aroused from their sleep.”[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Job 17:13, “If I wait – She’ol is my house, I shall make my bed in darkness."[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Job 17:16, Would it sink down into She’ol? Would we together go down into the dust?”"[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Daniel 12:2, and many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth wake up, some to everlasting life, and some to reproaches, everlasting abhorrence."[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Ecclesiastes 9:5, "For the living know that they will die; but the dead do not know anything; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten."[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 20:5-6, "But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection; on such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of Yahweh and of the Messiah, and will reign with Him a thousand years."[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Corinthians 15:51-55, “See, I speak a secret to you: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible has to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality. And when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall come to be the word that has been written, “Death is swallowed up in overcoming. O Death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your overcoming?”[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Matthew 9:24, “He said to them, “Go back, for the girl is not dead, but sleeping.” And they laughed at Him.”[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 20:14-15, "And Death and Sheol were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whoever was not found written in The Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."[/FONT]

 

[mailmandan]

The word "sleep" when referring to death, refers to the physical death of believers, not literal soul sleep, as certain cults teach (John 11:11-12; Acts 7:60; 1 Corinthians 15:6,18,20,51; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15; 2 Peter 3:4).

 

[shrume]

The word "sleep" when referring to death, refers to the physical death of believers

When people physically die, they are literally dead.

Ecc 9:
4) For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

10) Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Ps 115:
17) The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

not literal soul sleep, as certain cults teach (John 11:11-12

Don't forget vv 13-14:

John 11:
11) These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12) Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13) Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14) Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Acts 7:60

Acts 7:
60) And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Yes. Stephen died.

1 Corinthians 15:6,18,20,51

1 Cor 15:
6) After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

Yes, some of the brethren had died.

1 Cor 15:
18) Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

If Christ had not been raised, then there will be no resurrection, and those who have died are gone forever.


1 Cor 15:
20) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Yes. Christ is so far the only person raised to everlasting life. He is the firstfruits. Dead Christians will be raised from the dead at the rapture (1 Cor 15:51ff and 1 Thes 4:13ff), dead OT believers and people who will die for their faith during the trib will be raised from the dead at the resurrection of the just (Rev 20:4ff), and everyone else at the resurrection of the unjust (Rev 20:11ff).

1 Cor 15:
51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Yes. Not all Christians will die before the rapture happens. But those who do die are dead, and then they will be raised from the dead when the rapture does occur.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-15

1 Thes 4:
13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Paul is telling them not to be sorry for Christians who have died. They will not be forgotten. When Christ returns to gather the Christian church, dead Christians will be raised first.

2 Peter 3:4).

2 Pet 3:
4) And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

None of the verses you gave prove that dead people are alive. The Bible teaches the opposite, that when people die, they are dead, and will remain dead until one of the upcoming resurrections.

 

[Nehemiah6]

When people physically die, they are literally dead... None of the verses you gave prove that dead people are alive. The Bible teaches the opposite, that when people die, they are dead, and will remain dead until one of the upcoming resurrections.

This is false doctrine.

While the body lies is the grave, the soul and spirit are very much alive. Those who belong to the Lord are with the Lord. Those who do not belong to Him are in Hades, and in conscious torment.

So let's examine just one Scripture passage (2 Cor 5:1-8) to show how greatly mistaken you are:

THE HUMAN BODY IS A “TABERNACLE” (OR DWELLING PLACE) FOR THE SOUL AND SPIRIT
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

CHRISTIANS WILL HAVE AN ETERNAL, IMMORTAL HEAVENLY BODY
For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

IT IS A BURDEN TO BE IN THIS PHYSICAL BODY (WITH ITS LIMITATION)
For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

THE INDWELLING HOLY SPIRIT IS THE “EARNEST” FOR OUR FUTURE ETERNAL LIFE AND ETERNAL BODY
Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

WHILE IN THIS BODY ON EARTH, WE ARE ABSENT FROM THE LORD IN HEAVEN
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:

PAUL WOULD RATHER BE ABSENT FROM THIS BODY, AND PRESENT WITH THE LORD IN HEAVEN (WHERE ALL THE SAINTS ARE RESIDENT)
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

[shrume]

This is false doctrine.

We disagree, Nehemiah.

While the body lies is the grave, the soul and spirit are very much alive.

That is not true. People do not split into various parts at death, with only the body dying but the soul/spirit continuing to live.

Those who belong to the Lord are with the Lord.

Those who have died in Christ are dead in Christ, and they will be resurrected.

Those who do not belong to Him are in Hades, and in conscious torment.

Luke 16 is a parable, and not literal truth.

All the dead are in the same place: the grave. They are dead.

So let's examine just one Scripture passage (2 Cor 5:1-8) to show how greatly mistaken you are:

THE HUMAN BODY IS A “TABERNACLE” (OR DWELLING PLACE) FOR THE SOUL AND SPIRIT
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

That is coming in the future, when the dead in Christ will be made alive.

CHRISTIANS WILL HAVE AN ETERNAL, IMMORTAL HEAVENLY BODY
For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

Agreed!

But we do not get those immortal bodies when we die, we will get those immortal bodies when Christ returns.

IT IS A BURDEN TO BE IN THIS PHYSICAL BODY (WITH ITS LIMITATION)
For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Agreed!

That will happen when Christ returns.

THE INDWELLING HOLY SPIRIT IS THE “EARNEST” FOR OUR FUTURE ETERNAL LIFE AND ETERNAL BODY
Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

Agreed!

WHILE IN THIS BODY ON EARTH, WE ARE ABSENT FROM THE LORD IN HEAVEN
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:

Agreed!

PAUL WOULD RATHER BE ABSENT FROM THIS BODY, AND PRESENT WITH THE LORD IN HEAVEN

Agreed!

That will happen when Christ returns.

(WHERE ALL THE SAINTS ARE RESIDENT)

No, the dead are in the grave, unconscious, knowing nothing, no emotion, unable to praise God.

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Agreed!

I can't wait for that day!

It does not happen when we die. When we die, we are dead. Death is an enemy, not the "doorway to Jesus" or the "gateway to heaven".

There is no "immortal soul". That belief was brought into first Judaism by the Greeks (who did believe in an "immortal soul"), then made it's way into Christianity, where it unfortunately continues to thrive.

While I wish I could convince you (we do agree on quite a lot), my expectations of doing so are quite low.

Merry Christmas!

 

[Nehemiah6]

No, the dead are in the grave, unconscious, knowing nothing, no emotion, unable to praise God.

Really? Then it would appear that you do not really believe that the Bible is the Word of God, since this is what the Bible declares (Heb 12:22-24):

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

All the saints are living in the presence of the living God in the New Jerusalem. BELIEVE IT!

 

[dcontroversal]

In regards to your argument about why Solomon wrote Ecclesiastes, notice verse 13 of chapter 1: "And I gave my heart ot seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith" Notice that Solomon is including every man, not just the heathen that don't believe in God.

So then Solomon has grouped everyone together, both the believer and the unbeliever, and put them under the same rules, as is the case here. That means that he is writing to believers and unbelievers as well. The things he is writing are from the experience of his own life to everyone. It is kind of like the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. The truth applies to everyone regardless of where they come from or their belief structure or religion that they were raised in. Isaiah 26: 19-20: Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in the dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.. Also notice what Paul says in the New Testament Romans 6:5 "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection." Did Jesus go directly to heaven or hell after He died? No! He slept until His Father called Him forth. Sure, death happens, and it is a separation from consciousness and existance, but we are held in the arms of the Omnipotent until He shall see fit to call us forth at His coming. Another verse is 2 Corinthians 4:14 "Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus and shall present us with you." I love the fact that everyone goes to heaven together! What a reunion! What a joy, we all go together. No one is left behind that has lived and believed! Notice Hebrews 11:39-40: "39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."

Jesus did not sleep...he went and preached to the SOMETIME DISOBEDIENT WHO PERISHED IN THE FLOOD AND led those in ABRAHAM'S bosom to heaven....there is no such thing as soul sleep....the lost immediately lift up their eyes in hell and the saved are carried by the angels to the presence of God......Jesus brings all the dead in Christ with him when he comes back at the Parousia and calls all the dead from hell for the Great White Throne....the bible is clear on this.....the numerous statements about the dead not knowing nothing is indicative of knowing what is taking place on the earth.......The spirit that man has returns unto God that gave it upon death.......

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello Shrume,

Those who have died in Christ are dead in Christ, and they will be resurrected.

I'm surprised that you believe this. The word "anastasis" translated "resurrection" is defined as the body standing up again. When the Lord returns to gather the church, he will bring with him all of those spirits that have died in him and they will be reunited with their resurrected bodies.

Luke 16 is a parable, and not literal truth. All the dead are in the same place: the grave. They are dead.

Luke 16 is not a parable, but an actual event that the Lord revealed to us through his word. Parables use symbols to represent the literal. The rich man and Lazarus uses real names and the real location of Hades. It demonstrates that Lazarus and the rich man both died, but their spirits were found in Hades, conscious and aware. Lazarus, Abraham and the rest of the OT saints were in that area that was separated by that great chasm from the place of torment which is where the rich man went. It also demonstrates that once one finds himself there, there is no coming back and that they have all of their senses. It amazes me that this event which gives us a peek into the spiritual realm and because of Eccl. 9:5 they ignore all of the other scriptures that demonstrate that the spirit is conscious and aware after death for both the righteous and wicked.

"Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. For we live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord."

I noticed that you said the above will happen when Christ returns. However, that is not what the scripture says. It states that to be absent from the body (at the time of death) is to be in the presence of the Lord. In other words, as soon as the believer dies, their spirits depart from the body and go immediately to be in the presence of the Lord. Below is another scripture which reveals the same meaning:

"If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."

Notice in the scripture above that when Paul says "I desire to depart and be with Christ" he is speaking about departing from his body where he will immediately be in the presence of the Lord. Therefore, he was not talking about the resurrection because that has to do with returning to the body, not leaving it. Every person who has died in Christ from the on-set of the church is in the presence of the Lord looking forward to the resurrection their bodies. We who are still alive are waiting from this side for the resurrection, because those who are still alive will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with the resurrected to meet the Lord in the air.

"And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge those who live on the earth and avenge our blood?” "Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed."

The above demonstrates that these who will have been killed their spirits are very much conscious and aware, as they are having a conversation with the Lord and are given white robes to wear, i.e. their not sleeping.

When Jesus appeared in his glorified state, Moses and Elijah appeared speaking with him about his departure. I guess someone forgot to tell those two that they were supposed to be sleeping and knowing nothing.

When Jesus was crucified, there was a man next to him who said "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom." And Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise." In order to experience paradise one would have to be conscious and aware. Notice also that Jesus said they would experience paradise that same day. This is because as soon as they died, their spirits departed their bodies and went down to the same place where Abraham and Lazarus were, which was that place of comfort/paradise across from the where the rich man was.

There is no "immortal soul". That belief was brought into first Judaism by the Greeks (who did believe in an "immortal soul"), then made it's way into Christianity, where it unfortunately continues to thrive.

Forgive me, but regarding the above all you are doing is repeating a created apologetic that continues to circulate. There are way too many scriptures that demonstrate conscious awareness of the spirit after death to support soul sleep. Everyone who comes into the world, their spirits exist forever. It is the body that dies and decays, but even that will be resurrected for both the righteous and the wicked.

Life and death are both states of conscious existence, that existence depending on ones status with God. Eternal life will be in the conscious existence in the kingdom of God, while death is conscious existence in separation from God and punishment in the lake of fire.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The reference to "sleep" is referring to the body only and not the spirit/soul. Scripture makes clear that at the time of death, the spirit departs from the body and is conscious and aware (2 Cor.5:6, Phil.1:23) . Below are some examples of conscious awareness after death:

The rich man and Lazarus:
The event of the rich man and Lazarus, which is one of the most convincing scripture demonstrating the conscious awareness of the spirit after death and because of this it is reduced to being a parable by the opposition and thereby distorting the information contained within it regarding two men whose bodies died and yet their spirits being found in Sheol/Hades, conscious and aware.

Moses and Elijah:
When Jesus appeared to Peter, John and James on the mount where he was transformed into his immortal and glorified state, Moses and Elijah then appeared with Jesus speaking regarding his coming departure. I guess someone forgot to tell them that they were supposed to be sleeping.

Jesus and the thief on the cross in paradise:
The thief that was crucified with Jesus said to him "remember me when you come into your kingdom" and Jesus said, "today, you will be with me in paradise." So this begs the question, how could the thief be with Jesus in paradise that very day when they both died that same day? The answer is that, as soon as their bodies died, their spirits departed from their bodies and they went to the same place where Abraham and Lazarus were in the area of Hades, which was that place of comfort/paradise which was separated by that great chasm from the place of torment where the rich man went.

Tabatha's spirit returns to her body:
"When He entered the house, He did not allow anyone to go in with Him except Peter, John, James, and the child’s father and mother. Meanwhile everyone was weeping and mourning for her. But Jesus said, “Stop weeping; she is not dead but asleep.”And they laughed at Him, knowing that she was dead.

But Jesus took her by the hand and called out, “Child, get up!” Her spirit returned, and at once she got up."

Did you notice in the last verse that it states that "Her spirit returned" to her body, meaning that at the time of death the spirit does not remain with the body?

Those under the earth:
"And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it."

"Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power,

for ever and ever!”​

Under the earth? If those under the earth are sleeping, why include them as those who could not open the scroll or look inside unless they were conscious and aware? That's because the scripture is speaking about the departed spirits in Hades as those who were also not worthy to open the scroll or look inside.

The souls under the altar in heaven:
"And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge those who live on the earth and avenge our blood?”

Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed."

Who are these guys under the altar in heaven, complaining about vengeance against those who had killed them upon the earth and who are given white robes and are told to wait for a little while longer. Someone needs to remind them that they are supposed to be sleeping and knowing nothing.

Also, it would be kind of hard for those under the earth to sing if they were sleeping and unconscious. Just sayin'

 

[humbledbygrace25]

First I would like to state this: Going directly to heaven right after death sounds awesome! The idea that we don't have to let go of that which is so precious to us, that we don't have to lay it down completely and trust our Savior to wake us up again sounds nice. Yet if I am reading correctly here, and I believe that I am, I can see several verses that I would like to look deeper into. First of all let's address several points made point by point.

In regards to Luke 16. When studying this out, we notice that Jesus used the phrase: "A certain man" (Luke 16:19) many times when starting a parable. So to start the introduction is similar to those he used before for other parables.

Now let's go to the next phrase. The obvious question that can be asked is: Why did Jesus give the person in his parable an actual name? First of all the name Lazarus means: God my help. Anyone who heard Jesus talk about that name probably knew what it meant when they heard it. Secondly let's pull back the curtain here and take a look at the attitudes of those who were surrounding Jesus, and the real thrust for this argument.

We have the pharisees, who thought they had an automatic "in" to the kingdom of heaven. The disciples were also present. The mindset of the people at that time was that "good" people went to heaven and that "bad" people (the unlearned, the sick, the diseased, the poor) went to hell.

Yet the general thrust of this teaching, to me is: Of whom much is given, much is required. Have we been entrusted with truths about God's Word and about His love that the rest of the world does not have? If so, then we are in debt, to share that love with the rest of the world. What a horrible tradgedy it would be for us to hide our light behind a bushel and think that we only matter, and should we do this, we know that our ultimate end is destruction. We cannot live our lives for ourselves and think that we will be spared, when the rest of the world famishes for want of spiritual light and truth!

Also it is important to notice the rules of the parable. Can the dead speak to the living? No! There is a great gulf fixed. In other words it is final. When a person dies, for that person probation has closed, and their case is decided. What matters is what happens in this life ultimately! So arguing about where someone ends up when they die is a distraction from that which really matters and that is getting the good news of Jesus Christ and His Soon return out, and sharing with the world that there is a Saviour who loves them and is crazy about them!

Now let's address Moses and Elijah. First we know that Moses did die, but that he was resurrected. (Jude 9: [SIZE=+0]9[/SIZE] Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."

Why was Michael disputing about the "body of Moses", if indeed He already had Moses spirit in hand? Because you have to have the ruach (breath) and the body to make a living soul according to Jesus in Genesis. You can't have one without the other. So from this passage we know that Moses was resurrected. Secondly, we know that Elijah did not die because the Bible clearly states that he was taken to heaven in a fiery chariot ( 2 Kings 2:[SIZE=+0]11[/SIZE] And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. )

My family and I were studying this just last week. Notice Jesus words in Matthew 16: 26-28: [SIZE=+0]26[/SIZE] For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
[SIZE=+0]27[/SIZE] For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
[SIZE=+0]28[/SIZE] Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. )


Notice when the reward is given? When the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels. Getting back to the point though, Jesus in verse 28 makes a powerful statement to his disciples. He stated that there were some standing there which would not taste of death till they saw Him coming in His kingdom. As a child I always pondered about that. When did they get to see it was my question. Yet recently, I learned that in Chapter 17, they got to see an example of it! Notice that when Jesus took the disciples up on a mountain apart to pray that He was transfigured, and that His Father was there and that Moses and Elijah were present. Both Moses and Elijah were symbolic of the two types of righteous that would be at the second coming. First we have Moses, who died and was resurrected (Jude 9) Then, there is Elijah who was taken directly to heaven without seeing death (2 Kings 2:11) Both classes of people were represented that day and both were in a physical body.

As to the thief on the cross. Did Jesus go directly to heaven after he was raised from the dead. Clearly, no! John 20: [SIZE=+0]17[/SIZE] Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

At this point I think it is necessary to look at Jesus preaching to the spirits that were in prison. I recently came accross another article that brought out an interesting point: That the proper understanding of this text had to conform to the majority of the other texts in the Bible which speak on this same subject. In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, Jesus says that a "great gulf" was fixed and fixed means not able to be changed and He made the point that they would not change even if someone came to them from the dead.

This is sadly what happened and happens to those who harden their hearts to God's messages of warning. I see a warning in this for me as a person. It is important for me to make sure that I live my life according to God's Word no matter what! So the great gulf means that 1 Peter 3:18 clearly could not mean that Jesus was speaking to the dead before the flood, but rather, through Noah, He already spoke to them. This underscores the whole (they have Moses and the prophets), and also Jesus words in John 5:46 (For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.)

Again all truth is to point us to Christ, but that truth reveals Him, and does not change. He uses many different vehicles to relate Himself to us. Just because the people before the flood did not see Jesus, did not mean that His message to them had changed. Neither has His message to us changed, no matter through what agency He brings it! We are accountable to Him! Yet He loves us so much that He shows us His working!

In the greek the word Spirit is pnuema and means "breath". Again the idea of a spirit here is her ability to breath, the air came back into her again or breath of God. Please notice Ezekiel 37 and the parable of the dry bones here as well. Ezekial 37: [SIZE=+0]1[/SIZE] The hand of the Lord was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
[SIZE=+0]2[/SIZE] And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo,they were very dry.[SUP]*n1[/SUP]
[SIZE=+0]3[/SIZE] And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord God, thou knowest.
[SIZE=+0]4[/SIZE] Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.
[SIZE=+0]5[/SIZE] Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
[SIZE=+0]6[/SIZE] And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

Notice that in order for the bones to live, they needed the breath, or ruwach. So in this sense the little girl had the breath go back into her because the Jesus had spoken life into her!

Looking at the people under the earth elsewhere in Scripture there is no tie in, to those being "dead". The idea seems to mean "everyone and everybody" rather than a purgatory or something of that nature!

Now the last example really hits home for me. The souls under the alter that are told to wait. What altar are they under? Why do they have to wait. Is this literal or symbolic. Well in the old testament we have the story of Cain and Abel. Notice Genesis 4:10. [SIZE=+0]10[/SIZE] And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground.[SUP]*n8[/SUP]

Is Abel's blood really talking? Or is there something else meant by this statement. Also notice the statement here Hebrews 12: [SIZE=+0]24[/SIZE] And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things thanthat of Abel.

Again it becomes clear that this is a metaphore. These people gave their life for the gospel, and the question is: how long are they going to have to wait to receive their reward? The very fact that they gave their lives as a sacrifice and were martyrs for Christ demands a reward. But the question is: when is the reward going to be given? At the same time everyone else gets theirs. I love this passage [SIZE=+0]40[/SIZE] God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.