Do we Believe Jesus and/or Obey Jesus?
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I think salvation in the Old Testament was by faith, but Jesus told the young rich man to keep the commandments in order to be saved. This subject is kind of confusing, but what matters in this discussion is that the Lord Jesus (before the cross) preached the law, whereas Paul (the voice of Jesus after the cross) preached that God's people were no longer under the law and that salvation was by grace.
Jesus told his disciples to sell their possessions and give alms; He said it was impossible for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God (no camel can go through the eye of any needle); He taught obedience to the scribes and Pharisees; He told the man who was cured of leprosy to offer sacrifices; He taught His disciples to wash one another's feet; He observed the Jewish Passover; He kept the Sabbath, etc.
No Christian today does what the Lord Jesus commanded above. Why? Because the teachings above were for the Jews during the dispensation of the law.
It doesn't, in fact one of the closest things being Jesus teaching how to be saved is the following
Luke 10, 25-37
[SUP]25 [/SUP]¶ And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
[SUP]26 [/SUP]He said unto him, What is written in the law? How readest thou?
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul and with all thy strength and with all thy understanding, and thy neighbour as thyself.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right; do this, and thou shalt live.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]But he, desiring to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment and wounded him and departed, leaving him half dead.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And it so happened that a certain priest came down that way; and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]And likewise a Levite, when he came near the place and looked on him, he passed by on the other side.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was; and when he saw him, he was moved with compassion
[SUP]34 [/SUP]and went to him and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast and brought him to an inn and took care of him.
[SUP]35 [/SUP]And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two denarius and gave them to the host and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
[SUP]37 [/SUP]And he said, He that showed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go and do thou likewise.
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 15:5-16, “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and letting My words; abide in you, you will ask what you will, and it will be done for you. In this is My Father glorified: when you produce much fruit; and in this way you become My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; continue in My love. If you keep My Commands, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's Commands, and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be complete. This is My Command: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: that one would lay down his life on behalf of his brothers. You are My brothers, if you do whatever I command you.”[/FONT]
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John 12:25-26, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit. He who loves his life shall lose it, and he who hates his life in this world shall preserve it for everlasting life." Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.”
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”[/FONT]
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John 12:25-26, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit. He who loves his life shall lose it, and he who hates his life in this world shall preserve it for everlasting life." Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.”
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”[/FONT]
Do you see the self-contradiction in that statement? If you want to put that incident in colloquial language, what Jesus was saying to the rich man was "So you want to 'inherit' (earn) eternal life? Go ahead and try that, but you will never succeed, and I'm going to demonstrate that to you".
Most people can't see the irony of what Christ was teaching this man. God's plan of salvation was always be grace through faith, so Christ could not possibly contradict that.
You are confusing Christ's adherence to the Law with the teachings which were universal.
ADHERENCE TO TO THE LAW
He taught obedience to the scribes and Pharisees; He told the man who was cured of leprosy to offer sacrifices...He observed the Jewish Passover; He kept the Sabbath, etc.
UNIVERSAL TEACHINGS
Jesus told his disciples to sell their possessions and give alms...He taught His disciples to wash one another's feet
So the question is "Why are you confusing the two aspects, and then suggesting that Christ did not teach salvation by grace through faith? And how could He possibly teach another way of salvation, since He Himself is salvation?"
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Again, i think he did, The word is not mentioned int he OT, yet king david understood it (sacrifice and burnt offering you did not desire, Blessed is the man to whome God does not impute sin etc etc )
We have as I have showed a few times, the times in John where jesus clearly teaches unmerited favor. Even the parable of the tax collector (calling out to God to ask forgiveness knowing he did not deserve it) is a sign of grace. All these things and more before Jesus hung on the cross.
=Marcelo;3390012
Paul taught we are no longer under the death our rebellion caused us, but under grace. "Do we continue in our rebellion now that Grace has come"? God forbid. I don't buy into the teaching that "under the Law" means God's Commandments, rather, the death our disregard for His Word caused.
Jesus didn't teach to be obedient to the Scribes and Pharisees, rather, He taught to be obedient to the Law and Prophets that they were reading from.
Jesus had already healed the Leper without the "Works of the Levitical Priesthood" as it pertained to Lepers. Jesus was the High Priest and followed the Spiritual intent of the Levitical Priesthood. The point being, He cleansed the Leper, without the "works of the Law" that is, the Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" regarding the cleansing of sins..
Matt. 8:3 And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
Every true believe follow the teachings of Christ. But Jesus said "Many" would come in His Name to deceive. What does it mean to wash a brothers feet?
Passover is not a Jewish tradition, but a Commandment of God. Jesus created it before he Came to earth as a man.
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
This is why Jesus and His Apostles honored God with obedience to His Holy Days. Not because they were Jews following worthless "Jewish Traditions" as "many" who come in Christ's name preach, but because they spell out God's Salvation plan for mankind that begins with Passover, not end with Passover as "many" preach.
Paul taught we are no longer under the death our rebellion caused us, but under grace. "Do we continue in our rebellion now that Grace has come"? God forbid. I don't buy into the teaching that "under the Law" means God's Commandments, rather, the death our disregard for His Word caused.
Jesus didn't teach to be obedient to the Scribes and Pharisees, rather, He taught to be obedient to the Law and Prophets that they were reading from.
Jesus had already healed the Leper without the "Works of the Levitical Priesthood" as it pertained to Lepers. Jesus was the High Priest and followed the Spiritual intent of the Levitical Priesthood. The point being, He cleansed the Leper, without the "works of the Law" that is, the Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" regarding the cleansing of sins..
Matt. 8:3 And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
Every true believe follow the teachings of Christ. But Jesus said "Many" would come in His Name to deceive. What does it mean to wash a brothers feet?
Passover is not a Jewish tradition, but a Commandment of God. Jesus created it before he Came to earth as a man.
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
This is why Jesus and His Apostles honored God with obedience to His Holy Days. Not because they were Jews following worthless "Jewish Traditions" as "many" who come in Christ's name preach, but because they spell out God's Salvation plan for mankind that begins with Passover, not end with Passover as "many" preach.
No, you did not misunderstand me.
The RYR asked Jesus what he needed to do to be saved. Plain as day, Jesus' response to him was to "keep the commandments".
While people have always been saved by faith, in the OT (and gospel period) people had to demonstrate their faith by trying to keep the law. Again:
Deut 6:
25) And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.
During his earthly ministry, that is what Jesus taught.
Since Pentecost, we do not need to "keep the commandments" to be saved. We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ.
Rom 3:
20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
I'll give you only one example of why it's important to know the difference between the "Gospel of Jesus" and the "Gospel of Paul" (Gospel of Jesus through Paul):
Some 30 years ago a friend of mine wanted to be holier than the holiest of men (I've already told this story in CC). He often accused us of being disobedient while he, on the other hand, fulfilled all commandments of Jesus. He gave away almost everything he had and, to make a long story short, eventually he needed help from his friends to survive and ate a very big humble pie.
My friend didn't know that Jesus was preaching the law of Moses (bringing it to its full expression) and that later on He would announce salvation by grace through Paul and other apostles.
I don't think there is something wrong with obeying god....someone obeys him and he's trying to be holier than the holiest? but if you disobey means you are a christian?
just because you don't like Jesus's teachings doesn't mean you get to teach others your own teachings
Originally Posted by Marcelo
I'll give you only one example of why it's important to know the difference between the "Gospel of Jesus" and the "Gospel of Paul" (Gospel of Jesus through Paul):
Some 30 years ago a friend of mine wanted to be holier than the holiest of men (I've already told this story in CC). He often accused us of being disobedient while he, on the other hand, fulfilled all commandments of Jesus. He gave away almost everything he had and, to make a long story short, eventually he needed help from his friends to survive and ate a very big humble pie.
My friend didn't know that Jesus was preaching the law of Moses (bringing it to its full expression) and that later on He would announce salvation by grace through Paul and other apostles.
Would you sell everything you have, give the money to the poor and live in the streets.
No. God wants us to have wisdom, and understanding. It is not wise to give away everything you have to the extent you become a burden to others.
Phil 2:
4) Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
We are to wisely manage our affairs and ALSO look after others.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Then you would be seriously mistaken. When the law was given, Perfection was required. Anyone who did not keep all of Gods commmands were cursed (moses gave it in Deut and Paul confirmed it is Galations)
So jesus is not going to tell anyone if you want eternal life to obey his commands knowing the person already failed and can not make it up. Unless he is trying to get the person to think about how good he really is, Remember the pharisee, He was praising God he was not like the sinner, The Jews mistake is thinking they were righteous by the law it is why they rejected Christ.
You aren't reading what is written.
Matt 19:
16) And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17) And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Jesus told the RYR that if he wanted to have everlasting life, he needed to "keep the commandments".