Genesis 32

[posthuman]

i'd like to talk about all of Genesis 32 here. there is a great deal to bring out.
Genesis 32 starts with verse 1. verse 2 comes right after verse 1.

i know, obvious, right? but we pass over obvious things sometimes..
so i wanted to make sure this is pointed out

Now as Jacob went on his way, the angels of God met him. Jacob said when he saw them, “This is God’s camp.” So he named that place Mahanaim.
(Genesis 32:1-2)
​

"Mahanaim" means 'two camps'

a number of questions come up right away. one of them is this:

why did he name it this? upon observing that it was 'God's camp' he calls it two camps. God doesn't have 'two camps' does He? what the significance of him giving the place this name, based on what he has encountered and understood what he encountered to be? why doesn't he name it 'camp of God' ((Mahana-el?)) for example - as he had earlier ((Genesis 28)) renamed Luz 'Beth-el' which means 'house of God'?

 

[posthuman]

Search the scriptures;
for in them ye think ye have eternal life:
and they are they which testify of me.
(John 5:39)
​

↑​

ultimately this is the purpose of the thread, in my intent.
to search out and bring to light the testimony of the Christ

 

[Locutus]

I don't see how your two posts go together Bones - in regards to the two camps I haven't a clue.

 

[posthuman]

I don't see how your two posts go together Bones - in regards to the two camps I haven't a clue.

the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] post is the goal. by the end of chapter 32, we should be seeing Christ
i just don't want there to be any confusion about that..

the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] one is, well where the chapter begins - and that beginning has a puzzling thing! so, questions

 

[Dino246]

I would suggest that Jacob had some understanding of God's "plurality".

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

The Angel of The Lord encamps around those who fear him?

Is it perhaps two camps as in 1:Jacob's camp 2: The Angels camp
There are more of us than there are of them?

 

[Seedz]

Maybe it has to do with the spirit world and earth dimensions?

one camp in the earth
one camp (same location) but spirit dimension?

Just a thought.

 

[Locutus]

the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] post is the goal. by the end of chapter 32, we should be seeing Christ
i just don't want there to be any confusion about that..

the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] one is, well where the chapter begins - and that beginning has a puzzling thing! so, questions

So we gotta wait till you flesh this out do we?



Get on with it man....

 

[Nehemiah6]

...why did he name it this? upon observing that it was 'God's camp' he calls it two camps. God doesn't have 'two camps' does He? what the significance of him giving the place this name, based on what he has encountered and understood what he encountered to be?

While Jacob noted that "this is God's camp" because God's angelic host was camped there, he also remember that he had a whole group of people and livestock with him (32:7), which meant that it was also a human camp. Thus two camps consisting of men and angels.

 

[MarcR]

i'd like to talk about all of Genesis 32 here. there is a great deal to bring out.
Genesis 32 starts with verse 1. verse 2 comes right after verse 1.

i know, obvious, right? but we pass over obvious things sometimes..
so i wanted to make sure this is pointed out

Now as Jacob went on his way, the angels of God met him. Jacob said when he saw them, “This is God’s camp.” So he named that place Mahanaim.
(Genesis 32:1-2)
​

"Mahanaim" means 'two camps'

a number of questions come up right away. one of them is this:

why did he name it this? upon observing that it was 'God's camp' he calls it two camps. God doesn't have 'two camps' does He? what the significance of him giving the place this name, based on what he has encountered and understood what he encountered to be? why doesn't he name it 'camp of God' ((Mahana-el?)) for example - as he had earlier ((Genesis 28)) renamed Luz 'Beth-el' which means 'house of God'?

Ge 32:1-8
And Jacob went on his way, and the angels of God met him.
2 And when Jacob saw them, he said, This is God's host: and he called the name of that place Mahanaim.
3 And Jacob sent messengers before him to Esau his brother unto the land of Seir, the country of Edom.
4 And he commanded them, saying, Thus shall ye speak unto my lord Esau; Thy servant Jacob saith thus, I have sojourned with Laban, and stayed there until now:
5 And I have oxen, and asses, flocks, and menservants, and womenservants: and I have sent to tell my lord, that I may find grace in thy sight.
6 And the messengers returned to Jacob, saying, We came to thy brother Esau, and also he cometh to meet thee, and four hundred men with him.
7 Then Jacob was greatly afraid and distressed: and he divided the people that was with him, and the flocks, and herds, and the camels, into two bands;
8 And said, If Esau come to the one company, and smite it, then the other company which is left shall escape.
KJV


Mah chah nah' means encampment. mah chah nah yeem is the dual form.

mah chah nah oht is the regular plural.

Verse 2 anticipates verse 7.

 

[posthuman]

Ge 32:1-8
And Jacob went on his way, and the angels of God met him.
2 And when Jacob saw them, he said, This is God's host: and he called the name of that place Mahanaim.
3 And Jacob sent messengers before him to Esau his brother unto the land of Seir, the country of Edom.
4 And he commanded them, saying, Thus shall ye speak unto my lord Esau; Thy servant Jacob saith thus, I have sojourned with Laban, and stayed there until now:
5 And I have oxen, and asses, flocks, and menservants, and womenservants: and I have sent to tell my lord, that I may find grace in thy sight.
6 And the messengers returned to Jacob, saying, We came to thy brother Esau, and also he cometh to meet thee, and four hundred men with him.
7 Then Jacob was greatly afraid and distressed: and he divided the people that was with him, and the flocks, and herds, and the camels, into two bands;
8 And said, If Esau come to the one company, and smite it, then the other company which is left shall escape.
KJV


Mah chah nah' means encampment. mah chah nah yeem is the dual form.

mah chah nah oht is the regular plural.

Verse 2 anticipates verse 7.

the timeline goes like this though:

Jacob, travelling towards Esau, meets angels.
Jacob calls the place "God's camp"
Jacob names the place "two camps"
Jacob presumably camps either in the same place or nearby
Jacob sends messengers ahead to Esau
Jacob receives word back from the messengers
Jacob becomes afraid and distressed by the news
Jacob decides to divide his own camp

so in-between the time he names the place "two camps" and the time he makes the decision to divide his own camp, there had to have been enough time for him to send messengers, for the messengers to go ahead all the way to Esau, to have met Esau and gathered the information they relayed to Jacob, and then for the messengers to return, and then to tell Jacob what they had learned, and then for Jacob to come to a decision about what to do.

certainly naming the place "two camps" and dividing his own camp are related, but i find it difficult to believe he named the place "two camps" anticipating that he was going to divide his own camp there.

 

[posthuman]

we have Jacobs prayer after hearing from the messengers he sent recorded next; here's a part of it:

I am unworthy of all the lovingkindness and of all the faithfulness which You have shown to Your servant; for with my staff only I crossed this Jordan, and now I have become two companies.
(Genesis 32:10)​

i think it's probably key that Jacob considers himself unworthy of God's kindness.
my personal intuition is that there is definitely a spiritual aspect to calling the place what he does, that we can relate all the way out to the division of light and darkness at creation, of day following night, and as Seedz suggested the duality of physical and spiritual existence, but that Jacob doesn't camp with the angels. that he's calling the place "two camps" because there is "God's camp" where the angels are, and then "not God's camp" where Jacob camps. nearby? sure. but if expressing to God that he is not worthy of Him in this prayer, i think it's likely that he similarly felt unworthy to pitch tents among the angels.

 

[posthuman]

Verse 2 anticipates verse 7.

for reference, verse 2 is calling the place "two camps" and verse 7 is Jacob dividing his own camp.

there's a motif of division running all the way through this chapter:
we have Jacob, going to meet Esau.
he meets angels - separate creations from men
we have "God's camp" which implies that there are camps which are not His.
the place is named two camps.
Jacob divides his own camp.
Jacob sends gifts to Esau, but not all together: he sends them in separate groups, divided packets.
after this Jacob divides himself from his family and all his possessions.
then, alone, he wrestles with the angel - mortal and divine
the One wrestling with him bade him give up the struggle because daybreak - the division of darkness and light - was approaching.
he is renamed at this point to Israel - dividing his life into pre-Israel and post
the angel names him this saying he has struggled with God and man - bringing up again the division of divine and mortal.

((btw, i am saying "the angel" just for simplicity's sake. who exactly it was Jacob wrestled with is something quite important, and feel free to jump in and talk about that, but i'm still 'stuck' in vv. 1-2 haha --- there is a lot going on in this chapter and i'm trying not to jump all over the place but go through it at least a little bit systematically))

 

[posthuman]

Mah chah nah' means encampment. mah chah nah yeem is the dual form.

mah chah nah oht is the regular plural.

so we have "mah chah nah yeem" is the name he gives the place, right? and "dual form" indicates cardinality of 2?

and "mah-chah nah oht" is used here in verse 7, but it's there used specifically in conjunction with "shen-ah'-yim" meaning "2" ?

 

[MarcR]

the timeline goes like this though:

Jacob, travelling towards Esau, meets angels.
Jacob calls the place "God's camp"
Jacob names the place "two camps"
Jacob presumably camps either in the same place or nearby
Jacob sends messengers ahead to Esau
Jacob receives word back from the messengers
Jacob becomes afraid and distressed by the news
Jacob decides to divide his own camp

so in-between the time he names the place "two camps" and the time he makes the decision to divide his own camp, there had to have been enough time for him to send messengers, for the messengers to go ahead all the way to Esau, to have met Esau and gathered the information they relayed to Jacob, and then for the messengers to return, and then to tell Jacob what they had learned, and then for Jacob to come to a decision about what to do.

certainly naming the place "two camps" and dividing his own camp are related, but i find it difficult to believe he named the place "two camps" anticipating that he was going to divide his own camp there.

The Hebrew language has a grammatical construction called the historical future, in which a future event is spoken of in the perfect tense to indicate it will surely happen. Verse 2 is an example of the historical future. Mahanaim is not named until verse 7.

 

[MarcR]

the timeline goes like this though:

Jacob, travelling towards Esau, meets angels.
Jacob calls the place "God's camp"
Jacob names the place "two camps"
Jacob presumably camps either in the same place or nearby
Jacob sends messengers ahead to Esau
Jacob receives word back from the messengers
Jacob becomes afraid and distressed by the news
Jacob decides to divide his own camp

so in-between the time he names the place "two camps" and the time he makes the decision to divide his own camp, there had to have been enough time for him to send messengers, for the messengers to go ahead all the way to Esau, to have met Esau and gathered the information they relayed to Jacob, and then for the messengers to return, and then to tell Jacob what they had learned, and then for Jacob to come to a decision about what to do.

certainly naming the place "two camps" and dividing his own camp are related, but i find it difficult to believe he named the place "two camps" anticipating that he was going to divide his own camp there.

The Hebrew language has a grammatical construction called the historical future, in which a future event is spoken of in the perfect tense as if it were completed; to indicate it will surely happen. Verse 2 is an example of the historical future. Mahanaim is not named until verse 7.

 

[MarcR]

so we have "mah chah nah yeem" is the name he gives the place, right? and "dual form" indicates cardinality of 2?

and "mah-chah nah oht" is used here in verse 7, but it's there used specifically in conjunction with "shen-ah'-yim" meaning "2" ?

NO, mah chah nah yeem is used in both places.

 

[Johnny_B]

Here's what the footnotes of different translation say about Genesis 32:2

The NKJV footnotes, "Mahanaim means two camps"

The ESV footnotes, "Double Camp"

The HCBS footnotes, "= Two Camps"

The NIV footnotes, “Mahanaim means two camps.”

 

[posthuman]

The Hebrew language has a grammatical construction called the historical future, in which a future event is spoken of in the perfect tense as if it were completed; to indicate it will surely happen. Verse 2 is an example of the historical future. Mahanaim is not named until verse 7.

Thank you!

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

there's a motif of division running all the way through this chapter:

That's an interesting observation, the word of God is multifaceted and rich with detail.

Easu is the progenitor of the Edomites and their descendants are troubling Jacob (Israel) in the land to this day.

Ezekiel 35 (NIV)

A Prophecy Against Edom

35 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, set your face against Mount Seir; prophesy against it 3 and say: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, Mount Seir, and I will stretch out my hand against you and make you a desolate waste. 4 I will turn your towns into ruins and you will be desolate. Then you will know that I am the Lord.


5 “‘Because you harbored an ancient hostility and delivered the Israelites over to the sword at the time of their calamity, the time their punishment reached its climax, 6 therefore as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I will give you over to bloodshed and it will pursue you. Since you did not hate bloodshed, bloodshed will pursue you.7 I will make Mount Seir a desolate waste and cut off from it all who come and go. 8 I will fill your mountains with the slain; those killed by the sword will fall on your hills and in your valleys and in all your ravines. 9 I will make you desolate forever; your towns will not be inhabited. Then you will know that I am the Lord.


10 “‘Because you have said, “These two nations and countries will be ours and we will take possession of them,” even though I the Lord was there, 11 therefore as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I will treat you in accordance with the anger and jealousy you showed in your hatred of them and I will make myself known among them when I judge you. 12 Then you will know that I the Lord have heard all the contemptible things you have said against the mountains of Israel. You said, “They have been laid waste and have been given over to us to devour.” 13 You boasted against me and spoke against me without restraint, and I heard it. 14 This is what the Sovereign Lord says: While the whole earth rejoices, I will make you desolate. 15 Because you rejoiced when the inheritance of Israel became desolate, that is how I will treat you. You will be desolate, Mount Seir, you and all of Edom. Then they will know that I am the Lord.”