The Rapture of the Church is not biblical.

[Ahwatukee]

The great tribulation IS NOW, it has been since 2000 years ago- let no man cheat you.

Amazing! So, you think that the world has been experiencing the great tribulation for 2000 years? A time that Jesus said, would be a time of great tribulation such as the world has not seen, from the beginning of creation, until now and never to be equaled again, and you think that it has been going on for 2000 years. Why don't try doing some actual studying on end-time events?

As I said before, Jesus clearly taught that the great tribulation begins from the setting up of the abomination, which hasn't been set up yet, and will continue throughout that entire last 3.5 years, not 2000!

I continue to say it, that by you and others claiming that we are currently experiencing the great tribulation, you have no idea of the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. No idea! By your teaching, you water down God's wrath, which will all take place within that last seven years. By the time that Jesus returns to the earth, the majority of the population will have been decimated and all human government dismantled.

By your teaching, you are adding to and taking away from the prophecy of the book of Revelation. And, you are taking part in the spreading of false teachings.

 

[Ahwatukee]

My understanding in short, is that the white horse rider brings in world governance by the global politics of peace and safety, whereby nuclear disarmament of the nations of the world will occur.

The rider of the white horse, the antichrist, is a counterfeit of the rider on the white horse of Rev.19:11-21 who is the Lord Jesus. The rider on the white horse represents the emergence of the antichrist. There is no way to verify the information above, because it is not found in the context.

The black horse is a global famine and economic devastation caused by the collapsing of the beast kingdom toward the end of the great tribulation.

This information is from the writings of men, not scripture. The black horse/3rd seal, follows the White and red horse seals, which take place in chronological order. Therefore, the black horse/3rd seal must take place after the 2nd seal/red horse and that during the first 3 1/2 years.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will take place in chronological order. Since we have yet to see the first seal opened, then neither have any of the other seals been opened.

 

[Joseppi]

40 yrs of studying revelation doesn't help you because i can clearly see it's been 40 yrs believing a lie- rejoice because you can get understanding.
Non of the letters to the 7 churches was a literal letter- John was seeing visions and was recording what he saw in the visions and the total outcome of the recording is what we call the book of Revelation. Just to stress, there wasn't any piece of paper sent to some church in some corner somewhere- NO.

I understand the letters to the seven churches to be literal and necessary. There is much in them for all saints to consider. However, I understand that the reason for the seven letters being sent is to insure the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ would survive the satanic warfare against its publication.

The whole of Revelation (including the letters) is for all believers who live in the end times and the end times started after Jesus' death and resurrection. So, it applies throughout the first century to today until the end of the age.[/quote

Revelation is a detailed explanation of Daniel's end times account. None of them (Daniel & Revelation) talks about rapture btw- the only difference is that the book of Daniel was sealed until the end times so no one could understand it including Daniel.

Although it is true that the last days began on Pentecost...

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days,saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

I note that the time of the end is the shorter intense time at the close of the last days, immediate to the return of Jesus.
And this is noted by the sign given in Daniel 12:4 which is only seen now in recent decades with the rise of microprocessing and computer technology enhancing the God ordained globalization. The main sign of the time of the end is GLOBALIZATION

If anyone goes to the abomination spoken of by Daniel, they won't get nothing until they link it up with Revelation because the book of Daniel by itself, is sealed.

Because the sign of Daniel 22:4 is now evidenced by all mankind, I therefore know the book of Daniel and the flow of the words of the Spirit are no longer sealed nor shut up.

 

[Noose]

Oh boy, here we go! Tell me Noose, since the first sixty-nine sets of seven (483 years) were fulfilled literally, why would you assume that the last 3.5 years of that last seven years would be an algorithm? This is the equivalent of those who say all of the prophesies of Christ were fulfilled literally, but the future prophesies will be fulfilled spiritually/allegorically.

Who told you the first 69 weeks were literal? even those have to be converted to our calendar years plus there is a reason why the angel broke it into 3 pieces- 49/434/7. In between each piece, there's a whole 33 years that is not accounted in our Gregorian calendar- the reason Jesus lived only 33 years (let the reader understand)

The 3.5 yrs are figurative because it is the most elaborate of them all and most dangerous because of the antichrist. The antichrist is also given authority over God's people for a precisely timed period and the number of his authority is 666- or did you think the word name means a name like Ahwatukee? name in most places in the scripture means authority. In some places we are also told his authority is for 42months/1260 days/3.5 yrs so we add 1+1 and get 2.

"A period of seventy sets of seven has been decreed for your people and your holy city to finish their rebellion, to put an end to their sin, to atone for their guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to confirm the prophetic vision, and to anoint the Most Holy Place."


Sixty-nine sets of seven were fulfilled when the Messiah was cut off, crucified, which was an actual, literal event. So again, why would you assume that the last 3.5 years of that last seven year period would be non-literal? Furthermore, the number 666 is said to be the number of his name, for it is the number of a man.

Not at all- cutting off doesn't mean death of Jesus, it is more than death. It means a whole generation is not accounted for in the calendar. Read:
Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

One prophesy in Daniel is that the antichrist will think of changing times and seasons, that is exactly what happens when calendars shifted- don't think it was worthless prophesy.

Jesus made it very clear in Matt.24:15-22, that the great tribulation period begins at the setting up of the abomination, which takes place in the middle of the seven years. The seals are not apart of the great tribulation, for they take place during the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period

Correct but you don't know when the 7 years started and when it will finish and you certainly don't know its middle. Truly truly i tell you, we are way past the middle of the last 3.5 years. All you need is to understand how to calculate the 70 weeks.

In addition, the first seal, the rider on the white horse, is symbolic representing the revealing of the antichrist. Since the antichrist has yet to be revealed, then the first seal has not yet even been opened and therefore none of the other seals, which take place in chronological order, have taken place either. Not only that, but the church must be gathered prior to that first seal being opened, because the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are make up God's wrath.
You really should be teaching these false teachings.

When something is revealed doesn't mean everyone will understand, it is worthless and an insult to tell a blind person 'LOOK!'
The devil comes to steal, destroy and to kill in that order and the antichrist also symbolically comes in the form of the 4 horse men and the order is: conquer - conquers people's mind with lies (the steal stage),
second horse was to take peace from the earth - these sets the stage which culminates into death. This can be through wars/ accidents/famine (natural disasters), pestilences (diseases)
Third horse- is for judgement. Judgement leads to death for the wages of sin is death.
Fourth horse - Death. This is the culmination of tribulation (sudden death) by pestilences/sword/famine/beats.

The fifth seal, we see the souls of tribulation saints asking for revenge.
For those waiting for the antichrist to be revealed, keep waiting. There's no flying off, i can assure you. And tribulation is the everyday, normal death by these things i have mentioned.

 

[Noose]

I understand the letters to the seven churches to be literal and necessary. There is much in them for all saints to consider. However, I understand that the reason for the seven letters being sent is to insure the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ would survive the satanic warfare against its publication.

Although it is true that the last days began on Pentecost...

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days,saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

I note that the time of the end is the shorter intense time at the close of the last days, immediate to the return of Jesus.
And this is noted by the sign given in Daniel 12:4 which is only seen now in recent decades with the rise of microprocessing and computer technology enhancing the God ordained globalization. The main sign of the time of the end is GLOBALIZATION


Because the sign of Daniel 22:4 is now evidenced by all mankind, I therefore know the book of Daniel and the flow of the words of the Spirit are no longer sealed nor shut up.

There were no literal letters because:

Rev 1:1The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

John writes about what was shown to him in the visions and the outcome of his writing is not a letter to some church but a book called revelation for all believers. The letters is part of what he saw in the visions- HE DID NOT WRITE THE LETTERS OR RATHER HE WROTE THE LETTERS AS PART OF THE BOOK OF REVELATION. In his visions, he saw himself being told to write the letters.


Rev 1:9I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, 11which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.”

And everything is revelation was for the churches hence this conclusion:

Rev 22:6The angel said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.”7“Look, I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy written in this scroll.”

8I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”
10Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near.11Let the one who does wrong continue to do wrong; let the vile person continue to be vile; let the one who does right continue to do right; and let the holy person continue to be holy.”



12“Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
14“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
16“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[SUP]a[/SUP] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

 

[tanakh]

What i mean is that we are deep into the last 3.5 years (figurative) of antichrist rule. I'm not saying this out of guess work but it is calculable from the 70 weeks of Daniel - TRUST ME. The antichrist's 3.5 years are not literal 3.5 years, but it is an algorithm - his (antichrist's) number/authority is 666, so we use 666 to calculate the total number of years of his rule. It is like saying, the antichrist's authority is 3.5x and x=666, find his authority in years.

It is a tough calculation but when calculated well, we get 2300 years of antichrists authority. And the reason i know it's true is that the answer is in Daniel again:

Dan 8:14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”

The great tribulation is nothing more but the normal things as described in Rev 6. This death by: Pestilences (diseases), sword (wars), famine (natural disasters), beasts of the earth (animals and machinery)- all these is happening today but the intensity increases as we approach the end of age. They will be responsible for wiping out humanity.

Its more than a tough calculation Noose its completely over the top. The Bible is full of Symbols, Metaphors and Types but in every instance God has provided keys to understanding. Being a Maths Wizard isn't one of them. If it was a very large number of people, myself included, wouldn't understand a lot of it. My advice is to get acquainted with the whole Bible in order to understand the complete plan of God.

 

[Noose]

Its more than a tough calculation Noose its completely over the top. The Bible is full of Symbols, Metaphors and Types but in every instance God has provided keys to understanding. Being a Maths Wizard isn't one of them. If it was a very large number of people, myself included, wouldn't understand a lot of it. My advice is to get acquainted with the whole Bible in order to understand the complete plan of God.

You are right and it doesn't require a mathematician, all that is asked for is:

Rev 13:18This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man.[SUP]e[/SUP] That number is 666.

We are asked to calculate it.

 

[Ahwatukee]

There were no literal letters because:

More False teachings! Jesus told John to do the following:

"Blessed is the one who readsthe words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and obey what is written in it, because the time is near."

“Write in a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea."

"Therefore write down the things you have seen, and the things that are, and the things that will happen after this."

The same book of Revelation that we are reading, is the same letters that were sent to the seven churches. Everything you're reading, they were reading. As you can plainly see, John was told to write down "what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later." That covers the entire book of Revelation.

 

[Joseppi]

The rider of the white horse, the antichrist, is a counterfeit of the rider on the white horse of Rev.19:11-21 who is the Lord Jesus. The rider on the white horse represents the emergence of the antichrist. There is no way to verify the information above, because it is not found in the context.

I gave a short synopsis.
The books of prophecy are now open, for the sign of Daniel 12:4 is innevidence before all eyes, and the Spirit is now teaching and revealing what is soon to occur.
The first seal, rider on the white horse, is not necessarily the antichrist. But the forerunner that brings in the global kingdom the beast shall take control of.
He is given his crown because he isn’t elected, nor does he earn his authority to go forth globally conquering all nations without firing a shot, but instead by promise of socialized global governance peace and safety. The final satanic kingdom of global governance is depicted as the tree Nebuchadnezzar saw which encompassed the earth, seen by all man on earth, whose height is unto heaven (space), that offers all flesh peace, safety and sustenance under its shadow. Within its branches the evil spirits shall dwell also.
The sign of this authoritative, conquering, white horse rider is the next sign to appear.
It will be seen after a short period of international nuclear terrorism in which not only nations are involved, but also portable nuclear suitcase bombs as well. I suspected Obama would take that role, since, he came in his own name, was treated as one with authority, and was heralded as the man of peace ev n before he was elected. He was said by his followers to be the One.
I thought he’d go forth once he moved on from presidency into global politics.
But Trump has caused a delay during which short time the church must be awakened to the peril it faces globally.

This information is from the writings of men, not scripture. The black horse/3rd seal
, follows the White and red horse seals, which take place in chronological order. Therefore, the black horse/3rd seal must take place after the 2nd seal/red horse and that during the first 3 1/2 years.
The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will take place in chronological order. Since we have yet to see the first seal opened, then neither have any of the other seals been opened.

I agree with the chronology.
What many don’t realize is how much information God has provided in his prophetic word about this time. And the many don’t understand why.
Most do not realize that the great tribulation is God’s plan not Satan’s. Satan doesn’t have a choice but what God ordained him to have according to the serpent’s wisdom, hindered by the shortness of the time that is left to him in which to act.

The church failed to obey Jesus after Pentecost and remained in Jerusalem contrary to Jesus’ command to go into all the world... globally. So, persecution was necessary to drive them out into the world. This is why in Zechariah we are taught that Jesus the Shepherd would be smitten so that the sheep would scatter.
Satan formed the Roman Empire to quickly find and slay the Christ child that was to come to crush the serpent’s head at the time appointed. It was Satan who knew when Christ by numbers would be born according to Daniel, and it was Satan that had Augustus use the novel tax demand to return to each man’s home city. He did that to devour the man child who was to rule with a rod of iron. But Jesus overcame the world, the flesh and the devil and ascended to sit on the throne of God.
Then the gospel spread rapidly by using the roads, mail system, shipping lines, and the Roman Pax, of the Roman Empire.
So Satan shut the morphed the Roman Empire and it went underground.
After the dark ages of no common man published bible of the scriptures of God the word of God reappeared in Europe, was thrown off the continent, and finally sent to the New World until the time of the end when globalization became possible.

God has brought the nations of the world to the United States to evangelized members of all nations so as to send them back the way they came, but, with the gospel in heart and hand.
This the Lord gave me the vision of in 1984.

As surprising as it may seem, the great tribulation of the saints is the God ordained impetus toward global evangelization the church requires not only as motivation, but also to purge it of worldliness, and to stir up faith for all the world to see.
In the coming dark world in which no man can work God shall work in the midst of global persecution. And the church shall shine in that darkness as a city on a hill that can’t be hidden.

Evangelization requires boots on the ground. God has rejected technology like tv and radio and has ordained workers in the field that the heathen can touch and hear and see.

 

[Noose]

More False teachings! Jesus told John to do the following:

"Blessed is the one who readsthe words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and obey what is written in it, because the time is near."

“Write in a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea."

"Therefore write down the things you have seen, and the things that are, and the things that will happen after this."

The same book of Revelation that we are reading, is the same letters that were sent to the seven churches. Everything you're reading, they were reading. As you can plainly see, John was told to write down "what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later." That covers the entire book of Revelation.

Wrong again, 'the words of this prophesy' doesn't mean the 7 letters, it means everything from Rev 1 to Rev 22 including the letters.

The conclusion in Rev 22 is also very clear:

Rev 22:10Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near......16“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[SUP]a[/SUP] this testimony for the churches.

Just like the way it started, it ends in the same manner.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Wrong again, 'the words of this prophesy' doesn't mean the 7 letters, it means everything from Rev 1 to Rev 22 including the letters.

Why don't actually try reading my post! I said the following:

"The same book of Revelation that we are reading, is the same letters that were sent to the seven churches. Everything you're reading, they were reading. As you can plainly see, John was told to write down "what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later." That covers the entire book of Revelation."

So, if you would have read the above, you would see that I said the same thing that you did. Just look at the last sentence above. In other words, the letters sent to the seven churches include everything written in Revelation, which is exactly what I meant when I said "That covers the entire book of Revelation."

How can you even expect to know the truth of what scripture states, if you can't even understand what I'm writing?

 

[Noose]

Why don't actually try reading my post! I said the following:

"The same book of Revelation that we are reading, is the same letters that were sent to the seven churches. Everything you're reading, they were reading. As you can plainly see, John was told to write down "what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later." That covers the entire book of Revelation."

So, if you would have read the above, you would see that I said the same thing that you did. Just look at the last sentence above. In other words, the letters sent to the seven churches include everything written in Revelation, which is exactly what I meant when I said "That covers the entire book of Revelation."

How can you even expect to know the truth of what scripture states, if you can't even understand what I'm writing?

You are the one who doesn't understand.

Why would anyone write a letter about tribulation and send to a people who will not go through the tribulation?
I'm very much aware that what John wrote down is the book of revelation and just like every other scripture, it is not for some 1st century church alone, but the whole group of believers all the way to the end. So, the 7 letters are also for us today and the people to come- because we are under the control/authority of antichrist now until the end that is determined.
There's not going to be a future church called Philadelphia, Philadelphia has always been among us and will be among the people till the end.

The tribulation is now, it's not going to be some intense moment in the future, a 3.5 year period- it is now.

"..until 2300 evenings and mornings, then everything shall be accomplished..."

 

[SpoonJuly]

Hey Nehemiah6,

These people who claim that the church is going to go through God's wrath, are a disgrace to the Lord in my opinion. Reason being, is that in one breath they say "Jesus is our salvation." But at the same time, they don't recognize that Jesus took upon Himself the wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. For if they did believe that, they wouldn't be claiming that the church is going to go through His wrath. Further more, to make this claim they also don't understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. Then they do their little circumvention by renaming God's wrath to man's or Satan's tribulation.

My feelings regarding those who are not believing in the Lord's promise to keep us out of that hour of trial is that, let it be according to their faith. If they believe that they will go through God's wrath, then let it be according to what they believe. As it is, they are circumventing and distorting the word of God. Instead of looking for the "Blessed Hope, the appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ" they are looking to go through His wrath and be gathered when He returns to the earth to end the age. They ought to take a look to see who is following Him out of heaven riding on white horses.

These people are frustrating if anything!

You say "A disgrace to the Lord" and "Circumventing and distorting the Word of God".
So says one who continues to offer opinions as truth.
So says one who offers private interpretation of Scripture as truth.
So says one who says Rev. 4:1-2 is "prophetic allusion" to the rapture of the church.
So says one who says tribulation really means wrath.
So says one who say last does not really mean last.
So says one who says the first resurrection comes in phases.
So says one who has spent 40 years studying the Word and still has little understanding.

Proverbs 16:18 "Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall"