The Rapture of the Church is not biblical.

[Noose]

Yeah, well then, explain why the word "Ekklesia/church" is abruptly missing from the entire narrative of the events of wrath. As I said, the mention of the church in Rev.22:16 is outside of the narrative of God's wrath at the closing of the book. It is addressed to the church because we are the one's who are to proclaim the information within the book of Revelation.



Oh it's there, you just can't see it, because you are against it. There is a veil over your eyes. I see it, Nehemiah6 sees it, and many others see it and understand it. The "voice that sounds like a trumpet" is synonymous with "the trumpet of God" found in Paul's detailed account of the church being "caught up" in I Thes.4:16.



In the same way that God will resurrect the dead in Christ from all over the world to where He descends. He will also change the living in Christ all over the globe, meeting those who will have just resurrected, with the entire group meeting the Lord in the air. Then according to John 14:1-3, the Lord will take the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us. Why would you think that gathering everyone world-wide would be a difficult thing for God to do?



The above is a prophet allusion to the gathering of the church, with John standing in for the church. Obviously the Lord has not revealed this to everyone. John being told to write "what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later" divdes Revelation into three phases:

What you have seen = Everything that John saw and wrote from Rev.1:1 - 1:19

What is now = Represented by letters to the churches, which also represents the entire church period

What will take place later = What will take place after the "what is now," i.e. after the church period.

The "what must take place after this" is synonymous with the "what must take place later" in Rev.1:19, which is everything that takes place after the "what is now" i.e. everything that happens after the church period has completed and which is why the church is never mentioned after the end of chapter 3 or anywhere within the narrative of God's wrath.

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The whole of revelation is for the church, no other group. Its conclusion is very clear:

Rev 22:8I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”10Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near.11Let the one who does wrong continue to do wrong; let the vile person continue to be vile; let the one who does right continue to do right; and let the holy person continue to be holy.”


12“Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.14“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.16“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[SUP]a[/SUP] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

The church that was promised to rule with an iron scepter is part of the tribulation church. The only church that were protected from the tribulation is the church of Philadelphia and they remained here on Earth. So, that promise was true and we see them in Rev 21:5 ruling with christ. What we don't see, is the group that flew off before tribulation and were promised to be with Christ forever.

Rev 19. About the church in heaven- as early as Revelation 6, we see tribulation saints in heaven and are also given white linen, so your point proves nothing. In fact, the saints in revelation 19 are tribulation saints, can you prove me wrong?

 

[Noose]

Yes, you are correct, the word "Ekklesia/church" doesn't appear again until Rev.22:16, which is not supporting your cause. In Chapters 1 thru 3 the word "church" is used 18 times. Within those same chapters you will not find the word "Hagios/Saints." Likewise, from chapter 4 onward, you no longer see the word "Ekklesia/Church" mentioned within the narrative of God's wrath, but outside of it, which you and others ignore. The fact that the word "church" is absent during the narrative of God's wrath and only shows up at the end of the closing of Revelation supports what we have been telling you.

As I said, the gathering of the church takes place at Rev.4:1-2 where that voice that sounds like a trumpet says "come up here." It is a prophetic allusion to the gathering of the church, which God obviously put there for those who recognize it as a prophetic clue and which you obviously can't see.

On the contrary, you try again!

The voice like a trumpet was talking to John, not the church and John was in spirit (already in the vision) when he was told to go up. Unless you are suggesting that the rapture will be a vision then we'll have something to talk about. No one writes a letter explaining how people should prepare to overcome the antichrist and endure the great tribulation if they know that the people He is writing to are not going to be around.

One of the recurring message to the churches was "..if anyone endures to the end.."
End of what? Endure what?

 

[Noose]

Rev 2: 8“To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again. 9I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.11Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.

It is very clear, this church is to go through the great tribulation even to the point of death.
Are they not part of the church?

Rev 3:7“To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.11I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name. 13Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.


Even the church of Philadelphia, the faithful of the Lord will be here during tribulation only that they will be protected.
Are they not part of the church? where is the promise of their flying off?

Well guess what, only these two churches make it; the church of Philadelphia and Smyrna and they both go through tribulations.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Rev 2: 8“To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again. 9I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.11Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.

It is very clear, this church is to go through the great tribulation even to the point of death.
Are they not part of the church?

Hello Noose, the reference to "Do not be afraid of what you are about the suffer" is not referring to the existing church in the last days going through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which is the tribulation period. This reference is specifically to the literal church of Philadelphia of that time and is not regarding believers during the last days. Some of them being put into prison for ten days, was referring to what some of the believers of time would suffer. You have to understand that in the letters, some information is specific to the churches of that time and other information is referring to the entire church period.

Rev 3:7“To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:

These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.11I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name. 13Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.


Even the church of Philadelphia, the faithful of the Lord will be here during tribulation only that they will be protected.
Are they not part of the church? where is the promise of their flying off?

Well guess what, only these two churches make it; the church of Philadelphia and Smyrna and they both go through tribulations.

No, since the information is regarding keeping the church of Philadelphia out of the hour of trial, it is referring to that type of the church of Philadelphia and all believers who endure patiently. Therefore, in this case the information is to that type of Philadelphia church in the last days, and that to keep us out of that time of wrath, not to go through it.. The Greek word "Ek" is to keep believers "out of," not through it.

You have to be able to discern whether the information is to the literal church of that time or whether it speaking to believers throughout the entire church period. We are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, any of His wrath. And that because Christ already suffered it.

 

[preston39]

The voice like a trumpet was talking to John, not the church and John was in spirit (already in the vision) when he was told to go up. Unless you are suggesting that the rapture will be a vision then we'll have something to talk about. No one writes a letter explaining how people should prepare to overcome the antichrist and endure the great tribulation if they know that the people He is writing to are not going to be around.

One of the recurring message to the churches was "..if anyone endures to the end.."
End of what? Endure what? ...

N...,

The Bible presents that term...endures to the end.....in meaning ...several places in scriptures. All represent the end of one's life....to my understanding.

 

[Noose]

N...,

The Bible presents that term...endures to the end.....in meaning ...several places in scriptures. All represent the end of one's life....to my understanding.

End of one's life is death, so no rapture. Good.

 

[Noose]

Hello Noose, the reference to "Do not be afraid of what you are about the suffer" is not referring to the existing church in the last days going through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which is the tribulation period. This reference is specifically to the literal church of Philadelphia of that time and is not regarding believers during the last days. Some of them being put into prison for ten days, was referring to what some of the believers of time would suffer. You have to understand that in the letters, some information is specific to the churches of that time and other information is referring to the entire church period.




No, since the information is regarding keeping the church of Philadelphia out of the hour of trial, it is referring to that type of the church of Philadelphia and all believers who endure patiently. Therefore, in this case the information is to that type of Philadelphia church in the last days, and that to keep us out of that time of wrath, not to go through it.. The Greek word "Ek" is to keep believers "out of," not through it.

You have to be able to discern whether the information is to the literal church of that time or whether it speaking to believers throughout the entire church period. We are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, any of His wrath. And that because Christ already suffered it.

The message to the churches is for us today, not 1st century churches. If it were for the 1st century, then these words would not make much sense:

Rev 2:11Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.

This promise is to all believers, not a small group.

Rev 2:16Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

When did the Lord come to fight the disobeying church?

Rev 2: 17Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it.

Where are these stones?

Rev 2: 20Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. 21I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. 22So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. 23I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds

Where is this 1[SUP]st[/SUP] century Jezebel? Was she cast in the bed of suffering?

Rev 2: 26To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—27that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’[SUP]b[/SUP] —just as I have received authority from my Father.

Were these people given the iron scepter? When they endured to the end, did they die or were they raptured? What were they enduring to the end?

Rev 3: 10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.11I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

When was this hour of trial that came upon the whole earth? Did the Lord appear to them ‘soon’ in the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] century?

 

[tanakh]

The Devil and the Rapture +++ If I were the devil I would be against the Rapture. It's not fair because he has waited to kill multitudes of Christians (The Church). He is mad because the Word says the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church. He has tried to raise up his "man" in the past and failed (like Hitler)----just to much salt and light in the Earth. He has to wait for the Church to be removed for it restrains him. The End Time Church was promised (Philidelphia) to escape the Great Tribulation. He is hopeful for the few who are apostates and are cast into Great Tribulation (letter to 7 Churches). He wants to erase the Words of Jesus that say to pray always that you may be accounted worthy to escape all these problems coming upon the Earth. He can only hope we neglect so great Salvation and do not need His Words...

Since the Great tribulation is yet to happen and the Church of Philadelphia that the letter was addressed to has not existed for over 2000 years,I think you can safely say that they have escaped it.

 

[Noose]

Since the Great tribulation is yet to happen and the Church of Philadelphia that the letter was addressed to has not existed for over 2000 years,I think you can safely say that they have escaped it.

The great tribulation IS NOW, it has been since 2000 years ago- let no man cheat you.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The message to the churches is for us today, not 1st century churches. If it were for the 1st century, then these words would not make much sense:

First of all, John was told to send these letters, which contain not only the letters, but everything that is written in Revelation to the literal churches of the first century. So, yes, the letters were for the 1st century churches, as well as the entire church period up till this very day. However, some information was specific to those believers of that time. For example, in the letter to the church of Philadelphia, they are told that "because you have endured patiently, I will keep you out of the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those one the earth." Well, since the "hour of trial" is referring to God's time of wrath which is still future and of those in the original church of Philadelphia are long dead and gone, then the conclusion is that the message is to that type of Philadelphia church that will exist in the future, just prior to the hour of trial, which the Lord is going to keep them out of. And the promise is not just to Philadelphia, but to all believers who overcome.

Now, in the example below, the information in the letter to the church of Pergamum is specifically to the 1st century church and not to future churches:

"These are the words of him who has the sharp, double-edged sword. I know where you live—where Satan has his throne. Yet you remain true to my name. You did not renounce your faith in me, not even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was put to death in your city—where Satan lives."

We know this part of the information is to that literal church, because Jesus specifically mentions a faithful servant belonging to that church of that time period named "Antipas" who was put to death in the city of Pergamum for his faith in Christ. There is other information in that same letter that also pertains to end-time events, such as the mention of the double-edged sword.

It's just a matter of in-depth study Noose, and from that being able to discern who is being referred to, which the context reveals. I have studied Revelation for over 40 years and I am just trying to share that knowledge, because you're only using partial information in your responses.

Rev 2:11Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Rev 2:16Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Rev 2: 17Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it.

Rev 2: 26To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—27that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’[SUP]b[/SUP] —just as I have received authority from my Father.

Rev 3: 10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.11I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

All of the scriptures above are promises to all believers within the churches throughout the entire church period, to those of the church who will have died and will be resurrected, as well as to those who will be living just before the church is gathered.

Rev 2: 20Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. 21I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. 22So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. 23I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds

The scripture above is a mixture to both those of that first century church, as well as to the entire church period. The reference to that Jezebel, which may be referring to a type of Jezebel, i.e. Ahab's wife or could be someone named Jezebel of that time. The message regarding eating foods sacrificed to idols is to them. And the message to the entire church period is to keep ourselves from sexual immorality. In fact, the sin of sexual immorality is mentioned three times within the letters to the churches.

Another example of the letters being specific to the church of that time and to the entire church period is found in the following:

"But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate."

The Nicolaitans, would have been a group of people during that 1st century who were also teaching to eat foods sacrificed to idols and committing sexual immorality. Again, the message to the entire church period is to abstain from sexual immorality.

.

 

[Joseppi]

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

When the fifth seal is opened the saints who have already been slain in the great tribulation of the saints on earth are comforted till the full number of the saints ordained by God to be slain, is fulfilled.


Revelation 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

During the sixth seal the full number of the saints has been fulfilled, and they are no longer under the altar, but are found in heaven, in the presence of the Lamb.

The saints are the church of Jesus, the Lamb of God.
They came out of great tribulation.

The church wasn’t seen in heaven until the sixth seal is opened.

 

[preston39]

End of one's life is death, so no rapture. Good.

N....,

Not at all. I can understand your enthusiasm for support but, it is does not exist.

The church is made up of all the repented awaiting G-d's review to be declared...saved.....referred to in scripture as The Philadelphia Church which will be raptured.

How else would you propose that we get from these physical bodies to our spiritual bodies?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Greetings Joseppi,

When the fifth seal is opened the saints who have already been slain in the great tribulation saints on earth are comforted till the full number of saints ordained by God to be slain, is fulfilled.

The saints who are seen under the altar at the opening of the 5th seal, will be those who will have received Christ after the church has been gathered and who will have most likely died as a result of the 2nd seal rider on the red horse, who is given power to take peace from the earth so that men kill each other. Theses under the altar are most likely those who will have died during the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. The reference to them to "wait until their fellow servants and brothers are to be killed in the same manner as they were, is referring to the great tribulation saints introduced in Rev.7:9-17.

Neither one of these groups are the church, but will be those saints who will have not been believers in Christ prior to the church being gathered, but become believers after the church is gathered. The great tribulation saints will be those who became believers after the church is gathered and who will have not been killed during the first 3 1/2 years and will be that group that the beast is given power over to kill during the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period.

I continue to bring this up and that because it is important information that needs to be included when arriving at a conclusion. Within chapters 1 thru 3 the word "Ekklesiah" translated as "church" is used 19 times. Within those same chapters, you will not find the word "Hagios" translated as "Saints," i.e. the two are not used interchangeably in the first three chapters. Then, from chapter 4 onward, beginning at 5:8, we only see the word "Hagios/Saints" used and the word "Ekklesia/Church" is never seen with the narrative of God's wrath. This is a clue that God put in His word to show that the church is no longer on the earth after the end of chapter 3, which by the way completes the "what is now" portion of what John was told to write. Rev.4:1-2 is a prophetic allusion to the church being gathered represented by the voice that sound like a trumpet saying "come up here."

In conclusion, there is a distinction being made between the church and saints and that by the use of the word "church" and the subsequent and abrupt disuse of the word "church." The reference to the saints under the altar and the great tribulation saints, is referring to those who become believers after the church is gathered and during the time of God's wrath and the reign of the beast, which is also apart of God's wrath.

 

[Ahwatukee]

N....,

Not at all. I can understand your enthusiasm for support but, it is does not exist.

The church is made up of all the repented awaiting G-d's review to be declared...saved.....referred to in scripture as The Philadelphia Church which will be raptured.

r

And not only the church of Philadelphia, but to all believers who repent and overcome. They will also be caught up to the Lord, regardless of which church. For the promises are not restricted to a specific church, but are to all believers. This is supported by the fact that at the end of each letter the following is stated:

"Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious"

Therefore, the promise is to each individual believer and the church as a whole.

 

[Noose]

First of all, John was told to send these letters, which contain not only the letters, but everything that is written in Revelation to the literal churches of the first century. So, yes, the letters were for the 1st century churches, as well as the entire church period up till this very day. However, some information was specific to those believers of that time. For example, in the letter to the church of Philadelphia, they are told that "because you have endured patiently, I will keep you out of the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those one the earth." Well, since the "hour of trial" is referring to God's time of wrath which is still future and of those in the original church of Philadelphia are long dead and gone, then the conclusion is that the message is to that type of Philadelphia church that will exist in the future, just prior to the hour of trial, which the Lord is going to keep them out of. And the promise is not just to Philadelphia, but to all believers who overcome.

Now, in the example below, the information in the letter to the church of Pergamum is specifically to the 1st century church and not to future churches:

"These are the words of him who has the sharp, double-edged sword. I know where you live—where Satan has his throne. Yet you remain true to my name. You did not renounce your faith in me, not even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was put to death in your city—where Satan lives."

We know this part of the information is to that literal church, because Jesus specifically mentions a faithful servant belonging to that church of that time period named "Antipas" who was put to death in the city of Pergamum for his faith in Christ. There is other information in that same letter that also pertains to end-time events, such as the mention of the double-edged sword.

It's just a matter of in-depth study Noose, and from that being able to discern who is being referred to, which the context reveals. I have studied Revelation for over 40 years and I am just trying to share that knowledge, because you're only using partial information in your responses.



All of the scriptures above are promises to all believers within the churches throughout the entire church period, to those of the church who will have died and will be resurrected, as well as to those who will be living just before the church is gathered.



The scripture above is a mixture to both those of that first century church, as well as to the entire church period. The reference to that Jezebel, which may be referring to a type of Jezebel, i.e. Ahab's wife or could be someone named Jezebel of that time. The message regarding eating foods sacrificed to idols is to them. And the message to the entire church period is to keep ourselves from sexual immorality. In fact, the sin of sexual immorality is mentioned three times within the letters to the churches.

Another example of the letters being specific to the church of that time and to the entire church period is found in the following:

"But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate."

The Nicolaitans, would have been a group of people during that 1st century who were also teaching to eat foods sacrificed to idols and committing sexual immorality. Again, the message to the entire church period is to abstain from sexual immorality.

.

40 yrs of studying revelation doesn't help you because i can clearly see it's been 40 yrs believing a lie- rejoice because you can get understanding.
Non of the letters to the 7 churches was a literal letter- John was seeing visions and was recording what he saw in the visions and the total outcome of the recording is what we call the book of Revelation. Just to stress, there wasn't any piece of paper sent to some church in some corner somewhere- NO.

The whole of Revelation (including the letters) is for all believers who live in the end times and the end times started after Jesus' death and resurrection. So, it applies throughout the first century to today until the end of the age.

Antipus/Jezebel/ Nicolatians e.t.c are symbolic just to stress on the main message just like in Revelation 18:4, believers are being called out of Babylon- it doesn't mean that people will be called out of Rome or Syria, these are all spiritual messages which apply to the church even now.

Revelation is a detailed explanation of Daniel's end times account. None of them (Daniel & Revelation) talks about rapture btw- the only difference is that the book of Daniel was sealed until the end times so no one could understand it including Daniel. Now that we are in the end times, the book of revelation has an added information which is the key to understanding Daniel's visions and that key is the number 666- only. So, John is told to leave the book open because from there we get understanding.

When it comes to end times, you'll not get anything unless you go back to Daniel and Jesus when asked about the end times, He rightly referred people to Daniel, "...therefore when you shall see the abomination spoken of by Daniel...".
If anyone goes to the abomination spoken of by Daniel, they won't get nothing until they link it up with Revelation because the book of Daniel by itself, is sealed.

Only these two places (666 & abomination spoken of by Daniel) is wisdom called for- When Jesus said "...let the reader understand.." and when John said " ..let he who has wisdom, calculate the number..."

Your thoughts that the church of Philadelphia will appear just before the great tribulation is misplaced. The church of Philadelphia will indeed go through the tribulation (they won't be flying away) and Smyrna will die during tribulations, the rest will fail/ fall away during tribulations.

 

[Noose]

N....,

Not at all. I can understand your enthusiasm for support but, it is does not exist.

The church is made up of all the repented awaiting G-d's review to be declared...saved.....referred to in scripture as The Philadelphia Church which will be raptured.

How else would you propose that we get from these physical bodies to our spiritual bodies?

In the twinkling of an eye, those of us that will be alive shall be changed.....
If you believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord, came and died for our sins and confess with your mouth, you shall be saved- This is a promise and it doesn't pend, awaiting review by anyone.

The church of Philadelphia aren't taken away from the earth, they stay here during tribulation while the rest of the church is persecuted by the antichrist. Philadelphia is also spiritually called Judah and Smyrna (the rest of the believers) are also called Jerusalem. That's why Jesus said: "..when you shall see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, let those in Judea flee..."
It means Judah shall not be part of the persecution, they are protected.

A clear understanding is from what Jeremiah prophesied about remnants of Judah (Daniel and friends) when they were taken captive- that prophesy applies more to us than daniel and friends:

Jer 24: 1After Jehoiachin[SUP]a[/SUP] son of Jehoiakim king of Judah and the officials, the skilled workers and the artisans of Judah were carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, the Lordshowed me two baskets of figs placed in front of the temple of the Lord. 2One basket had very good figs, like those that ripen early; the other basket had very bad figs, so bad they could not be eaten.3Then the Lord asked me, “What do you see, Jeremiah?”“Figs,” I answered. “The good ones are very good, but the bad ones are so bad they cannot be eaten.”4Then the word of the Lord came to me: 5“This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Like these good figs, I regard as good the exiles from Judah, whom I sent away from this place to the land of the Babylonians.[SUP]b[/SUP] 6My eyes will watch over them for their good, and I will bring them back to this land. I will build them up and not tear them down; I will plant them and not uproot them. 7I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the Lord. They will be my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with all their heart.8“ ‘But like the bad figs, which are so bad they cannot be eaten,’ says the Lord, ‘so will I deal with Zedekiah king of Judah, his officials and the survivors from Jerusalem, whether they remain in this land or live in Egypt. 9I will make them abhorrent and an offense to all the kingdoms of the earth, a reproach and a byword, a curse[SUP]c[/SUP] and an object of ridicule, wherever I banish them. 10I will send the sword, famine and plague against them until they are destroyed from the land I gave to them and their ancestors.’ ”

 

[tanakh]

The great tribulation IS NOW, it has been since 2000 years ago- let no man cheat you.

I think you need to clarify that statement. Christians have gone through tribulations for 2000 years but what is known as the Great Tribulation is a culmination of world events that take place prior to Christs second coming. To be more specific many including myself regard the Great Tribulation as the events taking place during the second half of the seven year period leading up to the second coming and immediately after the rapture. It is known as the Mid Tribulation view or the Pre Wrath view.

 

[Noose]

I think you need to clarify that statement. Christians have gone through tribulations for 2000 years but what is known as the Great Tribulation is a culmination of world events that take place prior to Christs second coming. To be more specific many including myself regard the Great Tribulation as the events taking place during the second half of the seven year period leading up to the second coming and immediately after the rapture. It is known as the Mid Tribulation view or the Pre Wrath view.

What i mean is that we are deep into the last 3.5 years (figurative) of antichrist rule. I'm not saying this out of guess work but it is calculable from the 70 weeks of Daniel - TRUST ME. The antichrist's 3.5 years are not literal 3.5 years, but it is an algorithm - his (antichrist's) number/authority is 666, so we use 666 to calculate the total number of years of his rule. It is like saying, the antichrist's authority is 3.5x and x=666, find his authority in years.

It is a tough calculation but when calculated well, we get 2300 years of antichrists authority. And the reason i know it's true is that the answer is in Daniel again:

Dan 8:14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”

The great tribulation is nothing more but the normal things as described in Rev 6. This death by: Pestilences (diseases), sword (wars), famine (natural disasters), beasts of the earth (animals and machinery)- all these is happening today but the intensity increases as we approach the end of age. They will be responsible for wiping out humanity.

 

[Ahwatukee]

What i mean is that we are deep into the last 3.5 years (figurative) of antichrist rule. I'm not saying this out of guess work but it is calculable from the 70 weeks of Daniel - TRUST ME. The antichrist's 3.5 years are not literal 3.5 years, but it is an algorithm - his (antichrist's) number/authority is 666, so we use 666 to calculate the total number of years of his rule. It is like saying, the antichrist's authority is 3.5x and x=666, find his authority in years.

Oh boy, here we go! Tell me Noose, since the first sixty-nine sets of seven (483 years) were fulfilled literally, why would you assume that the last 3.5 years of that last seven years would be an algorithm? This is the equivalent of those who say all of the prophesies of Christ were fulfilled literally, but the future prophesies will be fulfilled spiritually/allegorically.

"A period of seventy sets of seven has been decreed for your people and your holy city to finish their rebellion, to put an end to their sin, to atone for their guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to confirm the prophetic vision, and to anoint the Most Holy Place."

Sixty-nine sets of seven were fulfilled when the Messiah was cut off, crucified, which was an actual, literal event. So again, why would you assume that the last 3.5 years of that last seven year period would be non-literal? Furthermore, the number 666 is said to be the number of his name, for it is the number of a man.

The great tribulation is nothing more but the normal things as described in Rev 6. This death by: Pestilences (diseases), sword (wars), famine (natural disasters), beasts of the earth (animals and machinery)- all these is happening today but the intensity increases as we approach the end of age. They will be responsible for wiping out humanity.

Jesus made it very clear in Matt.24:15-22, that the great tribulation period begins at the setting up of the abomination, which takes place in the middle of the seven years. The seals are not apart of the great tribulation, for they take place during the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period.

In addition, the first seal, the rider on the white horse, is symbolic representing the revealing of the antichrist. Since the antichrist has yet to be revealed, then the first seal has not yet even been opened and therefore none of the other seals, which take place in chronological order, have taken place either. Not only that, but the church must be gathered prior to that first seal being opened, because the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are make up God's wrath.

You really should be teaching these false teachings.

 

[Joseppi]

Greetings Joseppi,
The saints who are seen under the altar at the opening of the 5th seal, will be those who will have received Christ after the church has been gathered and who will have most likely died as a result of the 2nd seal rider on the red horse, who is given power to take peace from the earth so that men kill each other. Theses under the altar are most likely those who will have died during the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. The reference to them to "wait until their fellow servants and brothers are to be killed in the same manner as they were, is referring to the great tribulation saints introduced in Rev.7:9-17.

Greeting to you,
My understanding in short, is that the white horse rider brings in world governance by the global politics of peace and safety, whereby nuclear disarmament of the nations of the world will occur.
Once the final world governance is instituted by means of a false peace and righteousness movement among the heathen, then the Antichrist will stand up, consolidate his power by means of a global coup, for he alone then will possess nuclear weapons. (who can make war with him?)
Then the red horse rider (antichrist world dictator) institutes the great tribulation.
The black horse is a global famine and economic devastation caused by the collapsing of the beast kingdom toward the end of the great tribulation.
The pale horse is the final sickening result of the collapse of the global beast system.

Neither one of these groups are the church, but will be those saints who will have not been believers in Christ prior to the church being gathered, but become believers after the church is gathered. The great tribulation saints will be those who became believers after the church is gathered and who will have not been killed during the first 3 1/2 years and will be that group that the beast is given power over to kill during the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period.

My understanding is that the world can’t be evangelized unto harvest without the church preaching the gospel world wide and that requires a great number of motivated workers.
The global great tribulation of the saints of God is ordained of God as the means by which the world is evangelized as Jesus commanded the church to do.
The wrath upon the saints is the wrath of Satan who at the time of the end finds himself thrown down to the earth with no more ground left but earth on which to make his final desperate stand against the saints and the coming Christ Jesus.
I find the scripture teaching me to be a soldier of Jesus Christ until the last battle is over. As a good soldier I do not accept any notion of retreat to safe ground while others continue the battle against the kingdom of darkness. All Old Testament warfare narratives agree.
David, for an example, fell into dreadful lust and sin when he stayed home while his army of soldiers fought the battle.
Gideon was told to send all who had no heart for warfare home while he and the chosen few continued the fight until their lamps have them victory.

I continue to bring this up and that because it is important information that needs to be included when arriving at a conclusion. Within chapters 1 thru 3 the word "Ekklesiah" translated as "church" is used 19 times. Within those same chapters, you will not find the word "Hagios" translated as "Saints," i.e. the two are not used interchangeably in the first three chapters. Then, from chapter 4 onward, beginning at 5:8, we only see the word "Hagios/Saints" used and the word "Ekklesia/Church" is never seen with the narrative of God's wrath. This is a clue that God put in His word to show that the church is no longer on the earth after the end of chapter 3, which by the way completes the "what is now" portion of what John was told to write. Rev.4:1-2 is a prophetic allusion to the church being gathered represented by the voice that sound like a trumpet saying "come up here."

I read the scripture in a plainer way. I note the time of the wrath of God doesn’t literally start until...

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

In conclusion, there is a distinction being made between the church and saints and that by the use of the word "church" and the subsequent and abrupt disuse of the word "church." The reference to the saints under the altar and the great tribulation saints, is referring to those who become believers after the church is gathered and during the time of God's wrath and the reign of the beast, which is also apart of God's wrath

I understand the church to be the congregation of all the saints of God throughout the history of man, from Abel until the full number come in.
The saints are the holy people of God out of all nations, tongues, tribes and families on earth.

A saint is holy because they are sanctified in Christ by the blood of Jesus.

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus,who of God is made unto uswisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: that, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.