Salvation, Works, The Spirit, and The Bible.

[eternally-gratefull]

Why not? Even believers can be deceived, especially if the believer removes themselves from the Bible, other believers and get caught up in the world.

I was in the world for 5 years as a prodigal, yet I never stopped believing in the gospel/

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I would suggest you be a little careful about calling God and Jesus a liar - All those promises you give are 100% true for the one who believes in Christ, but none of them are true for the one who does not believe in Christ. God and not man determines eternal destiny.

He did not call God a liar. Those who say salvation can be lost do.

But yeah, I would be careful calling God a liar..

 

[dcontroversal]

The person who does not continue to believe after salvation is no longer a part of 'himself' (Christ):


"If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father."-1 John 2:24


They did not continue in the word, therefore, they do not continue in Christ, and so Christ is under no obligation to not deny them--they do not belong to him anymore. He can, and will deny them. The person he will not deny is the person who does not deny him. They may struggle in sin but as long as they don't deny Christ they will not be denied by him.

How many times do I have to tell you that your drivel of keeping yourself saved is false....no matter how many times you post this deceitful lie....it does not change the fact that JESUS begins, finishes and COMPLETES the work of faith in ALL who have believed....your view is FALSE...end of story. It must suck having no confidence or trust in Jesus Christ....YOUR VERY STANCE proves that you do not believe the bible or have any confidence in JESUS to complete his word and work........very subtle twist of the word and NO hope or confidence because YOU must do that which CHRIST has already said he would do....and this is what makes your false gospel so dangerous!

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

epiteleó: to complete, accomplish​

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Original Word: ἐπιτελέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: epiteleó
Phonetic Spelling: (ep-ee-tel-eh'-o)
Short Definition: I complete, accomplish, perfect
Definition: I complete, accomplish, perfect.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

lets look at this from the parable of the sower, the last people you talked about would be the ones picked away by the crows and burnt up by their shallow roots. But, your friend Darryl, could he not be represented by the one choked by sin(unforgiveness)

my question would be were any people in the sowers parable saved?

The people who had shallow roots where never saved, at best they were loosely saved? Which if that is the case, what does that say about the adoption as sons.. Did God loosely adopt us?

 

[dcontroversal]

I was in the world for 5 years as a prodigal, yet I never stopped believing in the gospel/

AMEN..................because JESUS began it, finishes it and perfects or completes it.........unlike Ralph who must help JESUS because his JESUS must be too weak or inept.....

 

[dcontroversal]

He did not call God a liar. Those who say salvation can be lost do.

But yeah, I would be careful calling God a liar..

I have come to the conclusion that people cannot read, or do not read all things or have no comprehensive skills.....like a few days ago...I said a reply was idiotic and then got accused of calling people names.....

 

[dcontroversal]

The people who had shallow roots where never saved, at best they were loosely saved? Which if that is the case, what does that say about the adoption as sons.. Did God loosely adopt us?

I believe the parable describes accurately 4 responses to the word...it is clear from scripture that most do not believe, some believe and have no growth and maturity and are easily offended, some allow the world to choke out the fruitfulness and some produce an abundance.....the latter three being saved with three different results from growth and maturity or a lack thereof....an honest evaluation reveals people of all three within the ranks of Christianity, the bible and all churches....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I believe the parable describes accurately 4 responses to the word...it is clear from scripture that most do not believe, some believe and have no growth and maturity and are easily offended, some allow the world to choke out the fruitfulness and some produce an abundance.....the latter three being saved with three different results from growth and maturity or a lack thereof....an honest evaluation reveals people of all three within the ranks of Christianity, the bible and all churches....

I used to see it that way, I see it now as 4 responses to the gospel. Some outright reject it, Some give it a try, but the world is where their heart is, Some think about it, but never really make a decision, and satan comes in before they are grounded and pull them away, and only one is actually rooted in christ, they are the ones who are saved.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have come to the conclusion that people cannot read, or do not read all things or have no comprehensive skills.....like a few days ago...I said a reply was idiotic and then got accused of calling people names.....

Some people I htink look for key words. if they see it, they get a big head and say Ah Hah!! I got you!! then spout off. not knowing what they are really responding to because they did not actually read to see, then make them self look foolish. then go on a blame shift or denial run when they are confronted.

 

[dcontroversal]

I used to see it that way, I see it now as 4 responses to the gospel. Some outright reject it, Some give it a try, but the world is where their heart is, Some think about it, but never really make a decision, and satan comes in before they are grounded and pull them away, and only one is actually rooted in christ, they are the ones who are saved.

Question....within the ranks of this parable you have those who produce an abundance right? Where are those found that produce little, those who have works of wood, hay and stubble yet saved, those who have stunted production etc.......if the parable equals the following...

1. Lost
2. Never saved
3. Never saved
4. Saved and produces an abundance

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Question....within the ranks of this parable you have those who produce an abundance right? Where are those found that produce little, those who have works of wood, hay and stubble yet saved, those who have stunted production etc.......if the parable equals the following...

1. Lost
2. Never saved
3. Never saved
4. Saved and produces an abundance

Question.

If something is lost completely and uprooted. How could they be saved (the root is Christ) This the second two woudl be examples of those who lost salvation.

I believe everyone produces fruit, but they may lose rewards later in life by actions (ie, a person who becomes a prodigal and taken home before he returns)

 

[dcontroversal]

Question.

If something is lost completely and uprooted. How could they be saved (the root is Christ) This the second two woudl be examples of those who lost salvation.

I believe everyone produces fruit, but they may lose rewards later in life by actions (ie, a person who becomes a prodigal and taken home before he returns)

No one loses salvation...how can one immediately with joy receive the word and then lose salvation......?

 

[dcontroversal]

"Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

dechomai: to receive​

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Original Word: δέχομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: dechomai
Phonetic Spelling: (dekh'-om-ahee)
Short Definition: I take, receive, accept, welcome
Definition: I take, receive, accept, welcome.

pisteuó: to believe, entrust​

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Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Short Definition: I believe, have faith in
Definition: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with

Does this go beyond the mere mental assent described in James and if so..........

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No one loses salvation...how can one immediately with joy receive the word and then lose salvation......?

they can't. but they can immediately and with joy recieve the word. yet never make a faith decision to call out to God to be saved. Thus the word never took root
I have known people who appeared to have joy, and within weeks walk away and never come to church again, and deny they even did anything.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

"Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

dechomai: to receive​

Original Word: δέχομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: dechomai
Phonetic Spelling: (dekh'-om-ahee)
Short Definition: I take, receive, accept, welcome
Definition: I take, receive, accept, welcome.

pisteuó: to believe, entrust​

Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Short Definition: I believe, have faith in
Definition: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with

Does this go beyond the mere mental assent described in James and if so..........

to me, No it does not.

They had mental belief, but no actual faith.

if they had faith, As James said, they would have done more than just receive with joy, they would have shown some works, because the root was on good ground (christ) not in week ground.

 

[joefizz]

to me, No it does not.

They had mental belief, but no actual faith.

if they had faith, As James said, they would have done more than just receive with joy, they would have shown some works, because the root was on good ground (christ) not in week ground.

Yes for one is to put on the full armor of Christ,how can one do that if one doesn't commit to him?
you can't,my family on my father's side including my father don't grasp this concept they actually believe that they don't have to change whatsoever to serve Jesus,like for instance my uncle and his girl friend think that having faith in God/Jesus means"waste their money on expensive stuff and expect that God/Jesus will provide them with whatever they need" pure ridiculousness,if there is "no change" to the individual that claims to accept Christ then they have not accepted Christ at all,only "claiming" they have.

 

[joefizz]

Yes for one is to put on the full armor of Christ,how can one do that if one doesn't commit to him?
you can't,my family on my father's side including my father don't grasp this concept they actually believe that they don't have to change whatsoever to serve Jesus,like for instance my uncle and his girl friend think that having faith in God/Jesus means"waste their money on expensive stuff and expect that God/Jesus will provide them with whatever they need" pure ridiculousness,if there is "no change" to the individual that claims to accept Christ then they have not accepted Christ at all,only "claiming" they have.

The primary reason^^^^ I want to get away from my father's side of the family the "hypocrisy" and "delusion" is so astounding that it's "sickening".

 

[dcontroversal]

they can't. but they can immediately and with joy recieve the word. yet never make a faith decision to call out to God to be saved. Thus the word never took root
I have known people who appeared to have joy, and within weeks walk away and never come to church again, and deny they even did anything.

Obviously this happens....my point is that if one throws out the possibility that more than one of the four is saved it severely limits the aspect of those who bear little fruit, those who have works of wood, hay and stubble and those who bear stunted fruit....the 4th on the list BEARS AN ABUNDANT amount of fruit......the first on the list is LOST so if we take that position....we know that MOST fit the 1st grouping.....and by reason and obviously MOST saved DO not fully mature and bear an abundance.....so I guess I am not seeing a place in your model where the immature and or worldly believer fits.....anyway...God will sort it all out hah

 

[dcontroversal]

Question.

If something is lost completely and uprooted. How could they be saved (the root is Christ) This the second two woudl be examples of those who lost salvation.

I believe everyone produces fruit, but they may lose rewards later in life by actions (ie, a person who becomes a prodigal and taken home before he returns)

On a side note....have you noticed how James makes a play on the word for works...Erga and Ergon?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Obviously this happens....my point is that if one throws out the possibility that more than one of the four is saved it severely limits the aspect of those who bear little fruit, those who have works of wood, hay and stubble and those who bear stunted fruit....the 4th on the list BEARS AN ABUNDANT amount of fruit......the first on the list is LOST so if we take that position....we know that MOST fit the 1st grouping.....and by reason and obviously MOST saved DO not fully mature and bear an abundance.....so I guess I am not seeing a place in your model where the immature and or worldly believer fits.....anyway...God will sort it all out hah

lol. Yes God will sort it out. As I said, I used to believe as you, Someone here actually got me to rethink my position.
and you make a valid point,

as I see it, the final person bears fruit, some hundred fold. some 60 some 30 (ie people will produce fruit, but not al will produce the same amount, some will produce alot, some very little)

and again, James, No works (fruit) equals no salvation, even the prodigal will have produced fruit. And the rewards, (wood hay straw) I answered..

no biggy though bro.