1corinthians 14:26,37, 38

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L

Lindasue

Guest
#1
37 If anybody thinks he is a prophet[SUP][/SUP] or spiritually gifted,[SUP][/SUP] let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command.[SUP][/SUP] << 1 Corinthians 14:361 Corinthians 14:371 Corinthians 14:38 >>
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#2
This so frequently used to stop women from sharing in church. The Greek contrasts gune and aner, not gune and anthropon. That is, wife and husband, not woman and man. The statement that must be agreed to is that women acting as wives to their husband (in a sexually desirable role) are not to be permitted to speak. This does not say that women as compared to men (biologically) must not be allowed to speak. This is why prophets and the spiritually gifted, not leaders are invoked as the judges. Leaders judge facts (biological differences), prophets judge the attitudes of the heart (such as expressed in body language communication). Also, in 37-38, the word "man" is neither man nor woman. It is "tis" meaning anyone.
 
Feb 17, 2010
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Keniyes, it says PROPABLY not DEFENATELY from the greek word G1096... Woman! Or Wife...

I wonder what word Paul had to use to tell Kenisyes that women should not talk in church? Why would they want too? I am man and I would GLADLY be quiet if God SPEAKS! Why do so many people want to talk so much?

Kenisyes, why did Paul start off the teaching with BRETHREN, and not BRETREN AND SISTEREN?...
My man do not miss the point by playing with the languages and words.... It does not matter what teh word is, if God does not reveal it to you, you will NEVER get the meaning.

Why don't we first get the rest of 1 Cor 14 right, and then worry about the rest.... Kenisyes, have you EVER been in a church to the standard of 1 Cor 14? If not why not!
 
M

Married_Richenbrachen

Guest
#4
I wonder what word Paul had to use to tell Kenisyes that women should not talk in church?
The same word Paul speaks to all of us. 1 Corinthians 14:37 "If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command." If we don't acknowledge this command, we're not prophets or spiritually gifted at all? (Or am I going too far saying such?)

Why would they want too? I am man and I would GLADLY be quiet if God SPEAKS! Why do so many people want to talk so much?
I think this is one of the problems with women leaders. Men often don't want to lead, which is why they are the best leaders. If they lead, they are leading to serve, it is a sacrifice for them. In all women leaders I have seen, they enjoy the glory.

This comes down to the curse in Genesis 3:16 "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." I'm probably preaching to the choir, but this desire isn't a love desire - its a desire to rule over, to dominate. Which is why so many women today want to ignore God's command for them to submit to Jesus, to their husbands and the elders in their churches.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,229
6,559
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#5
From Wikipedia:
Deborah (Hebrew:דְבוֹרָה, Modern Dvora Tiberian Dəḇôrā; "Bee", Arabic:دبورة Daborah‎) was a prophetess of the God of the Israelites, the fourth Judgeof pre-monarchic Israel, counselor, warrior, and the wife of Lapidothaccording to the Book of Judges chapters 4 and 5.
The only femalejudge mentioned in the Bible, Deborah led a successful counterattackagainst the forces of Jabinking of Canaanand his military commander Sisera, the narrative is recounted in chapter 4.
Judges chapter5 gives the same story in poetic form. This passage, often called The Song of Deborah,may date to as early as the 12th century BC[SUP][1][/SUP] and isperhaps the earliest sample of Hebrewpoetry. It is also significant because it is one of the oldest passagesthat portrays fighting women, the accountbeing that of Jael,the wife of Heber, a Kenite tent maker.Jael killed Sisera by driving a tent peg through his templeas he slept. Both Deborah and Jael are portrayed as strong independent women.The poem may have been included in the Book of the Wars of the Lordmentioned in Numbers 21:14.
In Hebrew, hername, דְּבוֹרָה, translates as bee. The Deborah number, a dimensionless number used in rheology, isnamed after he
From Chabad.org
The fourth of the judges who ruled over the Jewish people after the death ofJoshua, was not a man, but a woman, one of themost famous of all times, the Prophetess Deborah.Before her were Othniel, Ehud and Shamgar, thelatter only for a short time.
After Ehud's death the Jews forsook the ways of the Torah and adopted many of the idols of the peopleabout them. As a consequence G-d delivered theminto the hands of the King of Canaan, Jabin,whose royal residence was the city of Hazor. His cruel general Sisera oppressed the Jews for twenty years. Siserapossessed a well-trained army of cavalry. He also bad iron chariots that werethe "tanks" of those days. The Jews suffered terribly under the cruelrule of Sisera, and in great despair cried unto G-d.
It was then that G-d sent them Deborah the Prophetess. She was one of theseven women prophetesses whose prophecies are recorded in the Bible.
Deborah lived in the Mountains of Ephraim,between Ramah and Beth-El. In the midst of the sin and idolatry, Deborahremained true to G-d and His Torah. She was wise and G-d fearing, and thepeople flocked to her for advice and help. Deborah held court beneath apalm-tree, in the open air. There, where everyone could hear her, she warnedthe Jewish people and urged them to leave their evil ways and return to G-d.The entire Jewish nation respected this great prophetess.
Deborah was the wife of a man whose name was Lapidoth, which means"torches." Our sages tell us, that at the advice of his wife hefurnished large wicks and oil for the lights of the sanctuary of Shiloh, whichburned like torches. Thus, our Sages say, was the effect of this holy woman oneveryone around her: spreading the light of Torah. Similarly our Sages explainthat she sat under a palm-tree to show to the world that the Jewish people wasall united and turning their eyes again to G-d, like the leaves of the palmturn upward together, towards heaven.
It was fortunate that Deborah had such a tremendous influence. For even thestrongest and noblest of the men of those days had given up hope of turning thetide against the Canaanites' oppression and idolatry.
When Deborah felt that she had helped the people to return to G-d, she sentfor Barak, the son of Abinoam. Some say he washer husband, and that "Barak," meaning lighting, was another name for"Lapidoth." At any rate, Barak was the most influential man in Israel then, and Deborah asked him to raise an armyof ten thousand troops from the tribes of Naphtaliand Zebulun, and gather them at the foot ofmount Tabor, in the Plains of Esdrealon. With this army he was to attack theCanaanite oppressors.
Barak refused to undertake this task by himself, knowing well that only thehelp of G-d and the inspiration of the prophetess Deborah could succeed in thehopeless odds against the iron chariots and cavalry of Sisera. Deborah agreedto accompany him, but she warned him that although he would gain victory, theglory would not be his, but a woman's.
Sisera learned of Barak's approach and led his huge army against the Jews.Naturally, the well-trained and armored Canaanite troops had no difficulty atfirst. They quickly gained the upper hand. But suddenly G-d threw confusioninto their ranks. Rains turned the battlefield into mud, and the chariots werestuck. Terrified by the sudden turn of events, the mighty warriors of Siserafled in all directions. The overjoyed Jewish troops pursued them to the veryhometown of Sisera, Charosheth, and not a single soldier of the Canaanitesescaped.
When Sisera realized his defeat, he quickly descended from his chariot andfled on foot. Seeking a place to hide, he chanced upon the tent of Heber theKenite, who was a descendant of Jethro, thefather-in-law of Moses. Heber had been on goodterms with Jabin, the king of Hazor, the ruler of the Canaanites, and Siserawas only too happy to accept the invitation of Jael,Heber's wife, to bide him in the house until the Jewish army would have passed.
Jael gave him food and drink and, exhausted from the battle, Sisera soonfell into a heavy slumber. Seeing this, the brave Jael decided to make Siserapay for all the cruelties he had committed against the Jewish people.Cautiously approaching the sleeping warrior, she drove a long nail, a tent-pin,through his temple, thus putting an end to the hated oppressor. In the meantimeBarak had arrived at the house of Heber, in hot pursuit of Sisera. Jael cameout to meet him and greeted him with these words: "Come, and I will showthee the man whom thou seekest." She then led Barak into the tent, andthere lay the cruel general, dead.
Thus Deborah's predictions came true: the highest glory of the victorybelonged to a woman, not to Barak, and Deborah herself glorified the brave Jaelin the immortal "Song of Deborah."
The famous Song of Deborah is in many ways similar to the Song of Moses,which he and Israel sang after the miracle at the Red Sea. The extraordinarybeauty and charm of her poem make it next to the "Shiroh" (Song) ofMoses, the greatest of all poetic songs of gratitude to G-d, in our sacredliterature.
Deborah begins by praising the men in Israel who consecrated themselves tothe war of liberation:


 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,229
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#6
King James Version: 1[SUP]st[/SUP]Corinthians 11:16) But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no suchcustom, neither the churches of God
John 4:1) When therefore the LORD knew how the Pharisees hadheard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
2 .) (Though Jesushimself baptized not, but his disciples,)
3 .) He left Judaea,and departed again into Galilee.
4 .) And he must needsgo through Samaria.
5 .) Then cometh he toa city of Samaria, which is called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground thatJacob gave to his son Joseph.
6 .) Now Jacob's wellwas there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on thewell: and it was about the sixth hour.
7 .) There cometh awoman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.
8 .) (For his discipleswere gone away unto the city to buy meat.)
9 .) Then saith thewoman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink ofme, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with theSamaritans.
10 .) Jesus answeredand said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith tothee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would havegiven thee living water.
11 .) The woman saithunto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: fromwhence then hast thou that living water?
12 .) Art thou greaterthan our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, andhis children, and his cattle?
13 .) Jesus answeredand said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14 .) But whosoeverdrinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the waterthat I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up intoeverlasting life.
15 .) The woman saithunto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither todraw.
16 .) Jesus saith untoher, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.
17 .) The womananswered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said,I have no husband:
18 .) For thou hasthad five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidstthou truly.
19 .) The woman saithunto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
20 .) Our fathersworshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place wheremen ought to worship.
21 .) Jesus saith untoher, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in thismountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 .) Ye worship yeknow not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 .) But the hourcometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father inspirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 .) God is a Spirit:and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
25 .) The woman saithunto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come,he will tell us all things.
26 .) Jesus saith untoher, I that speak unto thee am he.
27 .) And upon thiscame his disciples, and marvelled that he talked with the woman: yet no mansaid, What seekest thou? or, Why talkest thou with her?
28 .) The woman thenleft her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men,
29 .) Come, see a man,which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?
30 .) Then they wentout of the city, and came unto him.
31 .) In the meanwhile his disciples prayed him, saying, Master, eat.
32 .) But he said untothem, I have meat to eat that ye know not of.
33 .) Therefore saidthe disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat?
34 .) Jesus saith untothem, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
35 .) Say not ye,There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you,Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already toharvest.
36 .) And he thatreapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both hethat soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.
37 .) And herein isthat saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth.
38 .) I sent you toreap that whereon ye bestowed no labour: other men laboured, and ye are enteredinto their labours.
39 .) And many of theSamaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, whichtestified, He told me all that ever I did.
40 .) So when theSamaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them:and he abode there two days.
41 .) And many morebelieved because of his own word;
42 .) And said untothe woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard himourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

BiblePlaces.com
[TABLE="class: MsoNormalTable, width: 487"]
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[TD="width: 585, bgcolor: transparent"]Temple of Apollo
The lower city was the location of the Temple of Apollo while the Acrocorinth was dominated by the Temple of Aphrodite. Greek writers in the 5th-4th centuries BC characterized Corinth as a city of commercialized love and a "Corinthian girl" meant a prostitute. The Corinthian church of Paul's day struggled with worldliness and sexual sin, both of which were typical of this cosmopolitan city. The temple originally had 38 columns of the Doric order; 7 are standing today.
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Bema
Paulspent 18 months in the city before the Jews of the city charged him withbreaking the law and brought him before Gallio at the city's place of judgment(bema). The mention of Gallio provides an anchor for New Testament chronologyas we know from Roman sources that Gallio was proconsul of Achaia from June 51to May 52. Standing on this platform, the proconsul dismissed the chargesagainst Paul as a dispute of Jewish law and not of a criminal nature.

Agora
InCorinth Paul met Aquila and Priscilla, Jews recently expelled by EmperorClaudius from Rome. The three of these were tentmakers (or leather workers) andmay have had their place of business in the city's commercial marketplace(agora). This would have afforded Paul numerous occasions to speak withcustomers and passers-by of the resurrection of Christ. Acts notes that Paulspent each Shabbat trying to persuade Jews and Greeks
ACTS18:24) And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquentman, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
25 .) This man wasinstructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spakeand taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
26 .) And he began tospeak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, theytook him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
27 .) And when he wasdisposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples toreceive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed throughgrace:
28 .) For he mightilyconvinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesuswas Christ.
 
M

Married_Richenbrachen

Guest
#7
Deborah? That old chestnut? She was neither a warrior, nor a leader, and she certainly never led the counter-attack against Sisera. Yes, she was the judge for Israel, but the scriptures don't say that she led.

Judges 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.

Barack led the counter-attack, but he was too fearful, and requested that she come with him. In this day, it would be similar to a battle field general having a civilian judge with him. We would not say the judge led the battle simply because he or she was requested to come with the general. We are not even told in the scripture that Deborah took part in the battle, so we can't call her a warrior, either. She most certainly wasn't a priest. So I don't see how the example of Old Testament Deborah is relevant to the passage quoted.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,229
6,559
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#8
Deborah? That old chestnut? She was neither a warrior, nor a leader, and she certainly never led the counter-attack against Sisera. Yes, she was the judge for Israel, but the scriptures don't say that she led.

Judges 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.

Barack led the counter-attack, but he was too fearful, and requested that she come with him. In this day, it would be similar to a battle field general having a civilian judge with him. We would not say the judge led the battle simply because he or she was requested to come with the general. We are not even told in the scripture that Deborah took part in the battle, so we can't call her a warrior, either. She most certainly wasn't a priest. So I don't see how the example of Old Testament Deborah is relevant to the passage quoted.
:)
It is relevant in the overall discussion of women in positions of authority.......women being in a role over men.......and Deborah certainly fits that role to a "T."

By the way...........every military action where a "Civilian Commander" such as our President orders the action, they receive credit for the victory, or blame for the defeat........all through History we see this recorded. Do the Generals also receive credit and blame? Sure...........but IN THIS CASE........Barack was too much of a 'fraidy cat, and WOULD ONLY to into battle IF Deborah went with them...........Nothing like having strong, spiritual, God fearing men to lead eh? :)

Look at the recent events here in the US........Finding Bin Laden, who got the credit? Obama! Would we say he led the way? Would we call him a warrior?

anyway, just offering a differing view from the idea that women are to "keep silence in church."

No big deal to me which way a person goes on this one, I figure God's got it all taken care of in spite of man.
 
M

Married_Richenbrachen

Guest
#9
:)
It is relevant in the overall discussion of women in positions of authority.......women being in a role over men.......and Deborah certainly fits that role to a "T."
Deborah wasn't in a role over men - that's why God needed Barak to lead the men. If Deborah was able to lead the men, she could just have said to Barak "Well, you stay home and cook dinner for my husband, and I'll lead your men to battle".

By the way...........every military action where a "Civilian Commander" such as our President orders the action, they receive credit for the victory, or blame for the defeat........all through History we see this recorded. Do the Generals also receive credit and blame? Sure...........but IN THIS CASE........Barack was too much of a 'fraidy cat, and WOULD ONLY to into battle IF Deborah went with them...........Nothing like having strong, spiritual, God fearing men to lead eh? :)
This analogy is a little out. Deborah wasn't in the place of a president - she was a judge. She couldn't order Barak to do anything - this was why she needed to come with him. He wasn't prepared to go without her. God had told her to tell Barak to lead the men to battle. Its possible Barak didn't want to go on a suicide mission in case this woman was mistaken. So her being present would be his guarantee that she was prepared to bet her own life, that the advice was from God, not out of Deborah's own imaginings. This being said, the command did come from God, so had Barak outright refused, he would have been in disobedience to God, not to Deborah.

Look at the recent events here in the US........Finding Bin Laden, who got the credit? Obama! Would we say he led the way? Would we call him a warrior?
In this day, the people with money get the credit for everything, no matter what they did. I'm one of those that believed Bin Laden passed away somewhat more peacefully from kidney failure ~2001. I would hope that was not the case in Old Testament times, but I could be mistaken.

I figure God's got it all taken care of in spite of man.
Agreed. But there are penalties for unbelief, as there were for Barak. Instead of getting the honour for himself, the honour went to a woman. I wonder who the honour will go to if the woman is the unbelieving one?
 
Feb 17, 2010
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#10
Does not matter what women in history did, this is the will of God...
1 Tim 3.. 1. Bishops... the Husband of ONE WIFE.... 2. Deacons.... the HUSBAND of ONE WIFE.... 3. Women, Adorn themselves with modest appeal, professing their Godliness WITH GOD WORKS, Exactly what all women "deacons" not officed deacons like men (church servants), but servant - deacons - like table - servants.... Elderly care servants... etc.


Another woman command.... 1 Tim 2... Let women learn in silence with all subjection... But I suffer not a woman to tach, nor usurp authority over the man (not husband MAN!) Kenisyes this is the MALE not the husband, but also the husband... ADAM not EVE!


Nope I trust God will have His will done in His Church.... I just believe the WHOLE of scripture, and I can SEE the differance in the MAN and WOMAN... God made them so. The ranking order is VERY
clear, and I will not mess with it, nor compromise on it... God is my Lord and my HEAD and no woman will teach me or I will not subject to no woman! God appointed Adam as the HEAD and EVE as the HELP..... If the HELP heads, it is disaster.

Just as disasterous if I want to HEAD Jesus! It will be disaster... Ask the disciples when they suggested the next move to Jesus. Jesus told them.... Ye know not of what spirit you are. And the same here, if a woman leads she knows not of what spirit she is, and if we allow women to speak in church we will have to stay and remain IGNORANT.

What is the old saying,,,, Ignorance is NO EXCUSE....
 
R

reject-tech

Guest
#11
Whole chapter =

Saying anything that gives other people good hope, security, confidence, grace, and so on, for their emotional benefit.
(prophet)

vs.

Saying anything to show them how awesome you are compared to them and others.
(ignorant)

"14:1 Follow after charity"

"Edify"
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#12
Keniyes, it says PROPABLY not DEFENATELY from the greek word G1096... Woman! Or Wife...

I wonder what word Paul had to use to tell Kenisyes that women should not talk in church? Why would they want too? I am man and I would GLADLY be quiet if God SPEAKS! Why do so many people want to talk so much?

Kenisyes, why did Paul start off the teaching with BRETHREN, and not BRETREN AND SISTEREN?...
My man do not miss the point by playing with the languages and words.... It does not matter what teh word is, if God does not reveal it to you, you will NEVER get the meaning.

Why don't we first get the rest of 1 Cor 14 right, and then worry about the rest.... Kenisyes, have you EVER been in a church to the standard of 1 Cor 14? If not why not!
So analyze it according to its other uses in Scripture or in Greek generally. The prohibition is as I say, not as the English use of the word suggests.

If we cannot hear God speaking through our brothers and sisters, we will miss most of what He is saying. And in answer to "what word", he would have had to say, "let there me no prophetesses among you, nor pastoresses nor teacheresses. For the pagans use such things too, and the fact that women had ministries alongside men in the OT is set aside by what Christ showed me". Oops, he didn't say that, did he?

For the same reason as English. You use the masculine to include both. And I agree, one of us will never get the meaning without God's revelation.

I've started a couple assemblies (there's only one church) that follow I Cor. 14. Females talk on an equal basis with males. That's what works. Also, "by their fruits you will know them". Ever hear of Foursquare Gospel?
 
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#13
Kenisyes send me one audio sermon, I will judge what is said....
I will give you my e-mail in private message... I HEARD well what paul said.... Even deacons are ONLY MEN WITH ONE WIFE... Difficult to get pasyt that...
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#14
I did not see this before I saw your e-mail. I do not save audio sermons. Fruit is more than the quality of the sermon. How about Joyce Meyer? There are no recordings, but how about Aimee Semple McPherson in the old days?

One wife is a tough passage. I can find you one denomination each, that insists that means, "at most one wife", "at least one wife", "exactly one wife", "only one wife at a time", and "a first wife but no second if the first dies". The passage is that way because Paul was writing mostly to men. "In Christ, there is neither make nor female" balances it.
 
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#15
I did not see this before I saw your e-mail. I do not save audio sermons. Fruit is more than the quality of the sermon. How about Joyce Meyer? There are no recordings, but how about Aimee Semple McPherson in the old days?

One wife is a tough passage. I can find you one denomination each, that insists that means, "at most one wife", "at least one wife", "exactly one wife", "only one wife at a time", and "a first wife but no second if the first dies". The passage is that way because Paul was writing mostly to men. "In Christ, there is neither make nor female" balances it.
Ken I do not play with the Bible, God wrote it for simple people like me, not for clever translators... Jesus said the MEEK at heart will know.... I KNOW!

If Joyce Meyers is your standard of "Godly people" we do not have REMOTELY the same God... That woman is a flase teacher of NOTE!


I just look at the eyes, hear the things some person speak and I know.... god says not what goes into the mouth makes you impure but what comes out.... Boy does Joyce and her band say evil things...

So many people gives me books to read, DVD's to whatch, sermons to listen too, and they ALL come up LEKEL... weighed and found light.... Do you know why KEN.... There is no HOLY SPIRIT IN THEM...

The weight the scale of God measures is the MASS of the Holy Spirit.... How much TRUTH is in them.... Well there are not many Truth teachers out there... VERY few, and MASSIVE amounts of false teachers.... You are so well schooled, you should know better than me.

My friend I do not know many of these actor evangelists... but even Amie Mcphereson is a show woman... I do not care about their witness, I care if the holy Spirit witness with them and HE DOES NOT! Not when I see Him in Paul, and in Simon Peter, and and and, soory it is NOT the same Spirit in Paul as in Joyce or Me MCpherson...

If god is in control of a GATHERING, there is NOTHING rehersed, read 1 Cor 14 again this time try to read it as God wrote it...
And see how the HOLY SPIRIT IS IN CONTROL OF EVERY WORD SPOKEN, EVERY SONG SUNG, and EVERY HEART GROWING...

Ken I have always showed you love and given you all the time to think and weigh what I say... I talk as God gave it to me, I do not need to make the Bible more complicated,,,, If God says women should not speak, let us leave it up to GOD to let them talk... But then would He?

In the Bible God had NO Apostlelen, He appointed NO Pastoress, No Evangelisten, No prophetess NO teacheress... Why would He need too? I am willing, and yet I am not appointed, In fact I am rejected, by the MAN-CHURCH. Exactly for my unbudging faith in the Word of God. I know there is only ONE CHURCH, but it is PERFECT! It is God's PERSO
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,783
2,947
113
#16
My USB interlinear Greek is quite clear that in a passage on deacons, 1 Tim 3:11 refers to "deaconesses." These are tough translational issues, for sure. But considering Phoebe is called a "deacon" In Romans 16:1:

"Συνίστημι δὲ ὑμῖν Φοίβην τὴν ἀδελφὴν ἡμῶν, οὖσαν καὶ διάκονον τῆς ἐκκλησίας τῆς ἐν Κεγχρεαῖς,"

it gives much credence to the fact that Paul was talking about all people who SERVE in the church. Which is what diakonos (διάκονον) means - men or women.

The Message actually puts it the best. Sorry if you don't like this translation.

"The same goes for those who want to be servants in the church: serious, not deceitful, not too free with the bottle, not in it for what they can get out of it. They must be reverent before the mystery of the faith, not using their position to try to run things. Let them prove themselves first. If they show they can do it, take them on. No exceptions are to be made for women—same qualifications: serious, dependable, not sharp-tongued, not overfond of wine. Servants in the church are to be committed to their spouses, attentive to their own children, and diligent in looking after their own affairs. Those who do this servant work will come to be highly respected, a real credit to this Jesus-faith." 1 Tim. 3:14-16

The whole chapter is on leadership. So read it in context!

And the context includes the culture. Paul is not talking to us, but to Timothy in the 1st century church. While there are universal principles, please remember that Paul was writing a letter to a specific person, within the context of a specific situation. However, I think when you remember grammar and rules of Greek, this passage really supports women in leadership.

As for 1 Cor. 14, and the command for women to keep silent in the church, this directly contradicts Paul's instructions only 2 chapters before that woman are to pray or prophesy with their heads covered. We know the dress code is cultural, so women are ALLOWED to speak in the church if they adhere to the dress code.

Punctation and Greek syntax are very important in verses 33 and 34. Because all of the early Greek manuscripts had no punctuation marks, does the "As in all the congregations of the saints, belong to verse 33 or verse 34? Well, it is up to the bias of the translator.

"For God is not a God of confusion but of peace,as in all the churches of the saints."

OR

"As in all the churches of the saints, [SUP]34 [/SUP]the women should keep silent in the churches."

It is interesting that the part about "all the churches of the saints is contained in verse 33, and the instructions to women continue in verse 34. So King James, with a definite bias against women, along with his male translators, put the period in the wrong place. And many versions after KJ.

As for the supposed contradiction with Paul's writings in 1 Cor. 12, the structure of the passage is vital to understand. Paul blended particularization and chiasm. Paul makes a general statement placing it at the beginning (A v 26), the middle (D v 33) and the end of the passage (A' v 40) The main idea was that since God is a God of order, all should participate in Christian worship in an orderly and edifying way.

Paul then proceeds to illustrate the principle by examples of those who speak tongues in the church, and the women of the church.

So a chiasm looks like this.

A
B
C
D
C'
B'
A'

The main idea is found in the middle. So verse 33 says "For God is not a God of confusion, as in all the churches of the saints." That is the main idea! The use of chiasm is very foreign to our English minds, but used all the time in both Greek and Hebrew. Once I learned the idea, I found it all over the Psalms and in the New Testament.

Further, there is a little word in Greek, which appears 49 times in 1 Corinthians. It is the word ἢ which Paul uses in various ways as an emotional rebuttal, to "express disapproval of existing situations". The closest equivalent in English would be "What?" or "Nonsense!" or "No way!" That is what Paul meant if he put it at the beginning of a question. He also used it if he was quoting a slogan of the Corinthian believers which he disagreed with.

So getting back to the chiasm, the first A, B, C are Paul correcting chaos, which these formerly pagan believers have brought into the church. C', B', and A' are the second half, where Paul prohibits prohibitions, correcting those who would silence the women outright! So these verses, if properly read with quotations, because Paul is likely quoting those who would silence women, are to be a protection from all those who would restrict or totally do away with the freedom for all to minister.

Poor Paul, it was all so clear in Greek, and English and English traditions muddled it to death and made it say the opposite!!

As for 1 Cor. 14:26, the word "brothers" in Greek is adephoi (ἀδελφοί). In Greek plural, the male INCLUDES the female. Actually, it was the same in English until recently, when the politically correct feminist movement decided that women being included in the male was not good enough, and our rules of grammar changed. But Koine Greek does not change, and even my ESV always, which is very complementarian, always includes notes that the male plural includes the female plural.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#17
I think that deacons aren't really leaders yes they hold office in church but their role is that of serving in the church for the church not teaching,, that's an Elder role. So for me personally I have no problem for a woman to be a deacon, but not an elder.

Teaching authority and leadership is a male role, that is very hard for modern ears to hear, but it is God ordained. Unfortunately through the ages men have neglected their role by usually being bullies or not steeping up to the mark. The egalitarian view is actually bent on reversing God's given gender distinctional roles.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,783
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#18
God did not create men and women to be in gender roles. Read Genesis 2!

The roles came in after the Fall, read Genesis 3. Roles are a result of the sin of Adam and Eve.

Fortunately, Christ came to redeem us from the curse of the law, sin and death!

"Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree” Gal. 3:13

The fact is that the Bible has been perverted for too long by man who have never studied the Bible in the original languages and do not understand the finer points of Greek!

Except a simple reading of Genesis 2 and 3 really makes it clear that roles are a result of the Fall! I guess some people choose their culture mores instead of the Bible!


 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#19
God did not create men and women to be in gender roles. Read Genesis 2!

The roles came in after the Fall, read Genesis 3. Roles are a result of the sin of Adam and Eve.

Fortunately, Christ came to redeem us from the curse of the law, sin and death!

"Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree” Gal. 3:13

The fact is that the Bible has been perverted for too long by man who have never studied the Bible in the original languages and do not understand the finer points of Greek!

Except a simple reading of Genesis 2 and 3 really makes it clear that roles are a result of the Fall! I guess some people choose their culture mores instead of the Bible!



Hi Angela,

I think that using the 'finer points of Greek' argument is a bit mute here, as there are many fine Hebrew and Greek scholars who have debated this. I do realise that getting a theology degree gives an elementary to intermediate level of Greek/Hebrew understanding and that is if you elect those courses' over your studies.. But in no case does it make one a scholar in the finer points.

Anyhow, I think Genesis 1 through 3 shows complimentarianism .

I think these two words define it pretty well.

Status and Function.
 
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K

kenisyes

Guest
#20
Ken I do not play with the Bible, God wrote it for simple people like me, not for clever translators... Jesus said the MEEK at heart will know.... I KNOW!
I'm quoting just the first sentence, so you will know I am responding to you. This is as I suggested by e-mail to you a bit ago. If we disagree on the interpretation of I Cor. 14, it is likely that we would also disagree on who is preaching "the gospel".

There's no point in discussing the matter, as the whole problem is that someone must judge, as I Cor. 14 is practiced almost nowhere in the history of the church, and so we have a system set up of denominations with varying points of view, leaving each person pretty much on his own to judge with his choice of what church he attends. Instead of speaking in the group as I Cor. 14 suggests, we are forced to do as we are doing, speaking out what we have seen on the internet, rejected by the churches you have been in, much as I find so many women to be. You and I clearly see Jesus from a different perspective and that is good. If we are to put out into this thread the whole truth, both opinions must stand side by side. We both speak here as I Cor. says we should in the church meeting, but find ourselves not allowed to do so. God moves beyond the meeting, and the church is here at CC.