1st John

[Thaddaeus]

I know this subject has been tossed to and fro in here before, But last Night at our mid-week service, we started a discipleship study, our opening study started in 1st John: 1-10, and God showed me something dealing with the salvational doctrine, that I had never seen before, And I want to share it with my friends and fellow Christians in this forum. we were addressing that fact that the Bible states about keeping the fellowship me must walk in His Light, But God showed me something entirely different when we read :

1jo 1:8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Now,there is some in here, who through different post or thread have stated that we must be sinless in order to make it to heaven. in simplier terms we must keep ourselves clean from sin. But that doctrine of salvation goes totally against this verse. to say that we have to be sinless to get in, is to say we can have no sin, and if we say we have no sin than we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. point blank!!
post what you will, might even be intertesting, to see how some will try and work around this thought, its a impossible way of salvation, to say that we must be without sin while the Bible says that if we claim we have this salvation, we are saying we are without sin and the truth is not in us. I am not saying that through Jesus and the power of Holy Spirit, and the promise of God, that He can deliver His people from their temptation and that with every temptation He will show a way to escape, that we can't be sinfree, but to teach someone that they have to be sinless is to teach them that they have to claim that they have no sin, and this causes them to lie which is a sin, and the truth is not in them. so to say
1jo 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

this is the Gospel we should Preach, well at least I think so. according to many other scriptures as well. but then again its not about Me, so what doth God say about 1 John 1:8

 

[wattie]

When you look at sin.. it isn't just the 7 deadly sins.. it is basically our imperfection. When we don't sin in our actions.. we do in our minds. If God keeped a ledger of what sin we did and used that as a reason not to let us in heaven.. every person on earth would be doomed to hell.

Jesus does want us to sin less.. but not because if we don't we are condemned.. but if we want to have a close relationship with Him.. then we need to seek Him and obey Him.

Any good works or lack thereof after salvation do not determine our eternal destiny.. but our closeness in relationship to Jesus.

 

[livingbygrace]

I know this subject has been tossed to and fro in here before, But last Night at our mid-week service, we started a discipleship study, our opening study started in 1st John: 1-10, and God showed me something dealing with the salvational doctrine, that I had never seen before, And I want to share it with my friends and fellow Christians in this forum. we were addressing that fact that the Bible states about keeping the fellowship me must walk in His Light, But God showed me something entirely different when we read :

1jo 1:8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Now,there is some in here, who through different post or thread have stated that we must be sinless in order to make it to heaven. in simplier terms we must keep ourselves clean from sin. But that doctrine of salvation goes totally against this verse. to say that we have to be sinless to get in, is to say we can have no sin, and if we say we have no sin than we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. point blank!!
post what you will, might even be intertesting, to see how some will try and work around this thought, its a impossible way of salvation, to say that we must be without sin while the Bible says that if we claim we have this salvation, we are saying we are without sin and the truth is not in us. I am not saying that through Jesus and the power of Holy Spirit, and the promise of God, that He can deliver His people from their temptation and that with every temptation He will show a way to escape, that we can't be sinfree, but to teach someone that they have to be sinless is to teach them that they have to claim that they have no sin, and this causes them to lie which is a sin, and the truth is not in them. so to say
1jo 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

this is the Gospel we should Preach, well at least I think so. according to many other scriptures as well. but then again its not about Me show what doth God say about 1 John 1:8

Well just to confuse things more.
But now he has appeared once for all to ov do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself Heb9:23
How can Christs death on the cross do away with sin then?

There sins and lawless acts I will remember no more Heb8:17

But now he haqs reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you Holy in His sight without blemish and free from asccusation. Col1:22

But if Christ is in you your body is dead because off sin, yet your Spirit is alive because of righteousness. Rom8:10

I dson't know how this sounds. In the Spiritual we are sinless and pe4rfect in God's eyes, because our faith in Jesus is counted as our righteousness. Jesus paid the price of every sin we could ever commit, and where there is no law sin is not taken into account, So as the Christian is not under law, from the spiritual point of view we are indeed seen as without sin by God and perfect in His sight.

Because by one sacrifice he has made perfect for ever those who are being made Holy. Heb10:14

However as Paul says the body is dead because of sin. It is impossible for us to do no wrong, but that is from the flesh point of view, not the spiritual.
So although we do in one sense sin, in another we vare seen as sinless and perfect. I hope this makes sense

 

[VW]

I know this subject has been tossed to and fro in here before, But last Night at our mid-week service, we started a discipleship study, our opening study started in 1st John: 1-10, and God showed me something dealing with the salvational doctrine, that I had never seen before, And I want to share it with my friends and fellow Christians in this forum. we were addressing that fact that the Bible states about keeping the fellowship me must walk in His Light, But God showed me something entirely different when we read :

1jo 1:8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Now,there is some in here, who through different post or thread have stated that we must be sinless in order to make it to heaven. in simplier terms we must keep ourselves clean from sin. But that doctrine of salvation goes totally against this verse. to say that we have to be sinless to get in, is to say we can have no sin, and if we say we have no sin than we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. point blank!!
post what you will, might even be intertesting, to see how some will try and work around this thought, its a impossible way of salvation, to say that we must be without sin while the Bible says that if we claim we have this salvation, we are saying we are without sin and the truth is not in us. I am not saying that through Jesus and the power of Holy Spirit, and the promise of God, that He can deliver His people from their temptation and that with every temptation He will show a way to escape, that we can't be sinfree, but to teach someone that they have to be sinless is to teach them that they have to claim that they have no sin, and this causes them to lie which is a sin, and the truth is not in them. so to say
1jo 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

this is the Gospel we should Preach, well at least I think so. according to many other scriptures as well. but then again its not about Me, so what doth God say about 1 John 1:8

And yet John goes on to say that we do not sin, because that which is born of God cannot sin. Paul wrote that it no longer he who committed sin, but sin that was in him. And here is where we get into trouble, trying to understand the scriptures with logic and reason. Is God unreasonable, or illogical? Heaven forbid! But, our logic and reason are not His. His logic and reason, His thoughts are as high above our as the heavens are above the earth, and I think that this does not even come close to the reality. We must have the Spirit, which is the mind of Christ, to understand these things. For otherwise, they are foolishness to us. Or, we will not understand correctly, and will believe things which are hurtful to our lives in Christ.

Within each one who has received Him, is the seed of the Father. This seed is perfect and without sin. But this seed is in fleshly vessels, frail and fraught with weaknesses and sin and unbelief. We are in such a state for a very good reason, that we depend upon God and His Spirit for all things spiritual. In this we have an example, Jesus who is our life and our Lord. He is our standard. He walked in this world, not counting it arrogance to be equal with God, and yet He humbled Himself, even to the death of the cross. In other words, as He took upon Himself our sins, this as the living Son of God, He became just like us in fact, having the perfect life from above, and the sin of the flesh. He did not sin, but took upon Himself our sin. So the cross is at work in us, even to this day, by the Spirit. We are dying to sin in Him, and living to God in Him. And all of these things are by the power of the Holy Spirit. And how are we to understand these things unless we believe in Him, the Spirit, and His work in us?

And when we see these things in Him, we will see that the purifying hope of the redemption of the flesh when we see Him with these eyes, and become as He is, how this hope makes sense to the spiritual mind, only. So many have a hope which is an escape, a departure from this world and the coming troubles, and not the earnest and living desire to become alive to God in the flesh, just as we are in the spirit. To put off this corruption, this death in the flesh, to have a vessel which is meet to hold the treasure within.

In His peace,

 

[MahogonySnail]

Thaddeus, you disagree with the idea we must be without sin to get to heaven, so do you believe that sin can enter heaven?

Secondly, looking at verse 9 which says if we confess our sins... helps us understand what verse 8 is saying. It is sinful to claim we have no sin when in fact we do. Verse 8 and 9 combined are basically saying "don't hide your sins, confess them!" It does not mean we must always consider ourselves to be sinners even if we are not. It does not mean God will let sin into heaven (in fact the verses don't mention anything about salvation or heaven). Once God has cleansed you from sin do you still see yourself as a sinner? If so then God must not have cleansed your sins, because if God has cleansed you , you are clean and pure and there is no reason why you or anyone else should condemn an innocent person to be a sinner, when they have no sin at that moment through the blood of Christ.

 

[Graybeard]

We all sin... yes, but soon in the near future...in the twinkling of an eye, we will be like Him and then and only then we will be without sin completely.....however, while we are here on this earth in this mortal body we must STRIVE to be perfect and sinless.

 

[loveschild]

Thats why we repent. Sin is a part of our flesh thanks to Adam and Eve.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Is it right to say you still have sin after you have repented of that sin? That's basically what the OP is asking us to do.

 

[wattie]

Everyone has sin after they have repented.. if not in one area.. in another. But that sin is taken care of for a saved person by Jesus' sacrifice being efficious to them.

There is also sin.. which is messing up from time to time because of our fallen state.. then their is habitual sin whch is a bit more deliberate and disobedient to Jesus. Sometimes verses about sin in the bible are meaning this kind of habitual sin. Especially when you consider the kind of setting the likes of Paul was in and who he was writing to such as at Corinth where debauchery, lusting, adultery were common.

Anyway.. it isn't our sin or lack of sinning that determines whether we are in heaven or hell.. but whether Jesus has paid the price for it. He gets us into heaven.. not by our own doing.

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[Thaddaeus]

Thaddeus, you disagree with the idea we must be without sin to get to heaven, so do you believe that sin can enter heaven?
quote]
I leave that up to Jesus, to take care that for me, you know, the one that has cleansed me from ALL my sins!!!!! Praise the Lord AMEN!!! I believe we will be changed in the twinkling of the eye!! Giving that new body that this Body of flesh will be no more


1jo 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

 

[Ash_JFF]

Thaddeus, you disagree with the idea we must be without sin to get to heaven, so do you believe that sin can enter heaven?

Secondly, looking at verse 9 which says if we confess our sins... helps us understand what verse 8 is saying. It is sinful to claim we have no sin when in fact we do. Verse 8 and 9 combined are basically saying "don't hide your sins, confess them!" It does not mean we must always consider ourselves to be sinners even if we are not. It does not mean God will let sin into heaven (in fact the verses don't mention anything about salvation or heaven). Once God has cleansed you from sin do you still see yourself as a sinner? If so then God must not have cleansed your sins, because if God has cleansed you , you are clean and pure and there is no reason why you or anyone else should condemn an innocent person to be a sinner, when they have no sin at that moment through the blood of Christ.

Look at verse 9 again:
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us of all unrighteousness.

Why faithful and righteous? Because of Jesus did on the cross. Only a saved person can have their sins forgiven as in if we refused to become a Christian then it is impossible to have our sins forgiven. A non-christian can confess all he wants to God but if he does not believe that Jesus died on the cross for the payment of sins, is God in the flesh and that God raised Him from the dead then those sin will not be forgiven.

Confessing our sins and having them forgiven will not make me a non-sinner, even for a moment. Remember what Paul said:
Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Our bodies are sin infested. Even if we confess and are forgiven at a time that we sin, we can't take off our dead, sin infested bodies. Our sinful nature are here to stay until the the Second Coming of Jesus when we will be given our heavenly bodies.

Salvation makes our soul redeemed and seen as perfect now and forever but our bodies will have to wait until heaven.
In essence: We are seen as perfect now based on the blood of Jesus, but we won't get the end result of perfection until heaven. Thus, we still sin but that will not affect our Salvation. Once God gives Salvation when we got saved, He doesn't take it away.

That doesn't mean we have free roam of doing sin all day long thinking we have no consequences. We still have to obey Jesus because He deserves it and we love Him. God's Spirit guides us in a life that wants to obey Jesus. A life of "do what you want sinning" is something that Jesus hates and the Spirit will convict us of that. We obey Jesus because deep down we want to out of love for Him because the Holy Spirit gives us that desire.

 

[pickles]

Hi Thaddaeus, I loved that scripture when I first read in so long ago. It confermed what Jesus had shown me in my heart. That no matter how hard we try our worldly hearts will sin. Now many will argue this but I ask all to examine themselves. We go forward in hope that all we do is to the glory of God through praise , obediance , and faith. But even in the deepest recesses of our hearts there is often a selfish perpose. That of self.
It is our goal that all we do is to the sevice of Our Lord God. That he may be glorified. But it is by the grace and help of God Our Father, Our Lord Jesus, the Holy Spirit that we have success.
I am the way, the truth and the light, is not said just because it sounds good. It is!
When we come to see that we must rest, commit, give all to God, even our faith. Then we will come to know the truth in Jesus.
I dont know if I said all of this very well, but the joy is knowing that all I said , given to God Our Father, will be good by his grace and Glorify Our Lord God!
God bless, pickles

 

[MahogonySnail]

Everyone has sin after they have repented..

So Jesus only half cleanses you? The bible does talk about being blameless.. are you spotless or not? or is it God's requirement that we must always be half stained by sin?

 

[livingbygrace]

Look at verse 9 again:
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us of all unrighteousness.

Why faithful and righteous? Because of Jesus did on the cross. Only a saved person can have their sins forgiven as in if we refused to become a Christian then it is impossible to have our sins forgiven. A non-christian can confess all he wants to God but if he does not believe that Jesus died on the cross for the payment of sins, is God in the flesh and that God raised Him from the dead then those sin will not be forgiven.

Confessing our sins and having them forgiven will not make me a non-sinner, even for a moment. Remember what Paul said:
Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Our bodies are sin infested. Even if we confess and are forgiven at a time that we sin, we can't take off our dead, sin infested bodies. Our sinful nature are here to stay until the the Second Coming of Jesus when we will be given our heavenly bodies.

Salvation makes our soul redeemed and seen as perfect now and forever but our bodies will have to wait until heaven.
In essence: We are seen as perfect now based on the blood of Jesus, but we won't get the end result of perfection until heaven. Thus, we still sin but that will not affect our Salvation. Once God gives Salvation when we got saved, He doesn't take it away.

That doesn't mean we have free roam of doing sin all day long thinking we have no consequences. We still have to obey Jesus because He deserves it and we love Him. God's Spirit guides us in a life that wants to obey Jesus. A life of "do what you want sinning" is something that Jesus hates and the Spirit will convict us of that. We obey Jesus because deep down we want to out of love for Him because the Holy Spirit gives us that desire.

Amen well put. But don't struggle to be like Jeus lol. We are told to put no confidence in the flesh. Jesus wants to change you, trust him amd let him

 

[Ash_JFF]

So Jesus only half cleanses you? The bible does talk about being blameless.. are you spotless or not? or is it God's requirement that we must always be half stained by sin?

Yes we are blameless because of the blood of Christ, as in when we die we will not go to hell because the devil has to grounds to condemn us. Living in this body still makes us a sinner even though we have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus. Our sins - past, present, and future, - are nailed to the cross. When we die God sees Jesus' righteousness - we are blameless.

However, even though Jesus counts us as blameless we are still sinners because we live in a sinful nature that can't be taken away until we die.

 

[Ash_JFF]

Amen well put. But don't struggle to be like Jeus lol. We are told to put no confidence in the flesh. Jesus wants to change you, trust him amd let him

Thank you! What I meant by struggling to be like Jesus is that I try to act the way he did. I try to let him work through and act through me. I don't trust my flesh, my flesh hates God. I depend on Jesus to make me reflect Him.

 

[wattie]

So Jesus only half cleanses you? The bible does talk about being blameless.. are you spotless or not? or is it God's requirement that we must always be half stained by sin?

Jesus forgives the sin.. but this doesn't mean it isn't still there in our behaviour.

Sometimes we do repent to the point of not doing a particular sin again... but the thing I was saying is there is always another area that needs work. Blameless and spotless because of His justification and cleansing.. but not because our actual fleshly nature is blameless and spotless.

If we don't have a fleshly nature after salvation then there is no need to flee from sin and we would all behave perfectly.

So God doesn't require us to be stained.. we just our by our fallen nature. We can sin less.. but never be completely sin free.

So Jesus will cleanse sin completely by His justification and payment for us.. but we still can mess up.

He wants us to love Him and follow Him.. but He isn't goign to send us to hell if we don't because our fallen nature has been set free from the consequence of sin. He will discipline, rebuke, teach, admonish but never condemn that which He has set free.

 

[MahogonySnail]

When we say we 'still have sin', you really mean we 'still have a sin nature'..that I agree with. But why do we have to confess our sin nature if it is something that you and God knows you will not be free of in this life? It makes no sense to me to ask God's forgiveness for a sin-nature, but it does make sense to me, to ask God for forgiveness of past sins committed and then be completely free of those sins. Once confessed and forgiven God remembers them no more and removes the sins from us so I don't think it's right to say we "still have the sin" ... but it does make sense to say we "still have the ability to sin". But I don't think that is what 1 John is addressing, but 1 John is basically saying "don't hide your sins that you have committed, confess them...".. I don't think it is saying " you must always have sin " when in fact you may not... it is saying anyone who denies they have sin when in fact they do, is a liar. I don't buy this condemnation and guilt trip that Christians have - that they must always think of themselves as having sin, or some sort of 'hidden sin' they are unaware of.

 

[Graybeard]

Flesh and blood is the sinful nature and cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

 

[wattie]

When we say we 'still have sin', you really mean we 'still have a sin nature'..that I agree with. But why do we have to confess our sin nature if it is something that you and God knows you will not be free of in this life? It makes no sense to me to ask God's forgiveness for a sin-nature, but it does make sense to me, to ask God for forgiveness of past sins committed and then be completely free of those sins. Once confessed and forgiven God remembers them no more and removes the sins from us so I don't think it's right to say we "still have the sin" ... but it does make sense to say we "still have the ability to sin". But I don't think that is what 1 John is addressing, but 1 John is basically saying "don't hide your sins that you have committed, confess them...".. I don't think it is saying " you must always have sin " when in fact you may not... it is saying anyone who denies they have sin when in fact they do, is a liar. I don't buy this condemnation and guilt trip that Christians have - that they must always think of themselves as having sin, or some sort of 'hidden sin' they are unaware of.

Why confess sin and flee from it? To be closer to Jesus in our relationship with Him. Like parents.. their commitment to you goes beyond your behaviour to them.. their love for you goes beyond that- that is the unconditional part. But they will love you more and have greater fellowship with you if you respect them and love them back. Jesus has sacrificed for our sin and commits to us no matter what, but will have a better and closer relationship to you if you seek after Him.

He also has rewards for those who have been faithful, who those who are unfaithful after salvation will miss out on. I saved person will never miss out on entrance to heaven.. but may miss greater blessings by their behaviour toward Jesus.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. - This is not about entrance to heaven but rewards in heaven

(1Co 3:11-15) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

This also isn't determing entrance to heaven.. but rewards in heaven.

Like I always type.. parents have a biological connection to their children that cannot be undone by anything except death.. God has a spiritual connection to saved people as His born again children.. that is not bound by death.. greater than the biological connection parents have to their children.

But ya this has been really really thrashed out and I don know if we will ever agree on security of salvation..