THE REAL ISRAEL

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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#1
from ANALYZING Scofield

Christians do the Jews a great wrong when they suggest that they will have a second chance or that being fleshly children of Abraham can bring salvation. The Jewish people suffered the worst destruction ever brought upon any people in A.D. 70 because they refused to believe the Scriptures that plainly prophesied of the coming of the Messiah. They knew when he was to come because of Daniel 9, but since he did not meet their preconceived ideas of what they expected Messiah to be, they crucified him and suffered the loss of everything. All those who refuse to believe God's more sure word of prophecy concerning Christ's Second Coming, are headed for everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord when he shall come to be glorified in his saints.


[SIZE=+2]THE REAL ISRAEL:[/SIZE]

The Teaching of Romans 11

by CHARLES GILBERT WESTON


Moses gave a great prophecy of Christ, one like himself who would give to Israel all of God's word. If any man would not hear that prophet, God would require it of him. Peter quotes it as in fulfillment in this age, "And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people." (Ac 3:22-23.) lsrael is the people from among whom they are to be destroyed. If the Apostles were here today, who would believe them?

The name Israel has several usages. To many, it has only one meaning. The first Bible usage is in Ge 32:24-29. Jacob was in a tight spot. He was on his way home with his wives, his children and his flocks -- a helpless little group moving along. His brother, Esau, who had sworn to kill him for cheating him, was coming to meet him with four hundred men. Jacob sent his family ahead, group by group, in a way calculated to soften Esau's heart. He stayed behind to pray and found himself wrestling with an angel of the Lord. As dawn came, the angel said, "Let me go."
Jacob said, "I will not let you go except you bless me."

The angel asked his name. Jacob told him his name, which means supplanter, one who supersedes another by trickery or treachery. The angel said, "Thy name shall no more be called Jacob, but Israel -- an overcomer, for as a prince thou hast power with God and with men and hast prevailed." The angel blest him there.

He had left Esau as Jacob, the cheat. He met him as Israel, a prince with God. Esau came peacefully, and they met as brothers. The angel of the Lord gave Jacob his own name. In Isa 49:3-4, Israel is the name of Christ, the one who overcame and purchased our salvation and brings us unto this experience to be called Israel, also to be overcomers.

Jacob's flesh descendants are called the children of Israel.

When the kingdom was divided the northern nation was called Israel; the southern nation was Judah.

The name Israel can also be applied to rank sinners. (Nu 25:6-14)

The godly Remnant within Israel was the true Israel. Elijah cried out to God that he alone was left serving God, and the Lord said, "l have seven thousand who have never bowed the knee to Baal." They were his true people who had resisted the temptation to bow to the idol and were overcomers. The rest had all failed. God had given them the name as something to live up to.

Apostate Israel is still called Israel even though they forfeited the right to use it. In Isaiah 1:2-4, the Lord grieves, "Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth ... I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me. The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider. Ah, sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evil doers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the Lord, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they have gone away backward." He still calls them Israel showing them the terrible depths to which they have sunk. Their descendants crucified Christ.

God left a Remnant of true overcomers and a remnant of the apostate Israel. Some say, "You can't find that in the New Testament." Oh yes, you can. Look at John 7:19-20: "Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? The people said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee?" See John 8:32, 41, 44a: "I know that ye are Abraham's seed: but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: ye do that which ye have seen with your father. They said, Abraham is our father. Jesus said, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. They said, We be not born of fornication: we have one father, even God ... [Jesus said] Ye are of your father the devil and the lusts of your father ye will do."

There are two Israels mentioned. "Israel which followed after the law of righteousness hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but by the works of the law." (Ro 9:31-32.) Israel which followed after the law is the very opposite of the elect Remnant of grace. (Ro 11:5, 7-10) "Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it; and the rest were blinded." Ro 11:7, 16b, 17a. "If the root be holy, so are the branches, and if some of the branches be broken off...."

Natural branches were broken off and wild olives were grafted in. One must identify the broken branches as a group. "Well, because of unbelief they were broken off." (Ro 11:20.) The Israel of God is noted in Hosea: "In the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, ye are the sons of the living God." (Hos 1:10; 2:23.) "I say to them which were not my people, thou art my people, and they say, Thou art my God." The prophecies of Hosea identified by Paul show the true Israel is the Church at Ro 9:22-26. Notice Peter's use of Joel 2:32 as to where salvation is found: "In Zion and Jerusalem shall be deliverance ... and in the Remnant whom the Lord shall call."

Did the Remnant of Israel lose the name Israel by being true to God'? Not according to the prophets. (lsa 54:1-13; Gal 4:22-30; 6:16; with Ro 9:22-26.) "Ye in time past were not the people of God ... but now have obtained mercy ... are now THE people of God." Not A people. (1Pe 2:10a)

Is there any hope for the broken off branches? Yes, indeed. The hope they rejected in unbelief is still offered to whosoever will. If they will believe in that Rock of safety, a true foundation stone, (Isa 28:16); he who died for them, (Isa 53), he who came at the appointed time, (Da 9); then they will come out of carnal Israel into the salvation and glory and life of the Israel of God, into the living Body and Church of Christ that is New Covenant Israel.

The present and closing age of grace will soon make an end of this opportunity of salvation, and sadly many of Christ-rejecting Israel will have waited too long. (Mt 8:10-12; Lk 13:25-29) "There shall be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out." Does this sound like setting up a kingdom? But look at this verse: "So all Israel shall be saved." "Yes, look, which Israel is that?" The Bible is very explicit, that out of old Israel only a Remnant would be saved. (Isa 10:22-23; cf. 5:1-14; Ro 9:27; Mt 23:32-38 and 8:10-12.) The same Old Testament tells of the "All Israel" that is saved. (Isa 45:17, 25) It is "in the Lord." Isaiah points out the one as descending into hell, the other "IN THE LORD." SAVED. Has the word of God been ineffective? The answer is NO. There are two Israels; the one foreknown of God before the foundation of the world is the one God has always been pointing to by promise, by typology, by prophecy, in song, poetry, prose, with its gates open by day and night for whosoever will. Let the weary and thirsty come and drink of eternal mercy, love and life. Amen. Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. (Gal 3:29)

But the prophet said the nation of Israel would be restored. That is true, read about it in Ezekiel 34. It tells of Christ coming to the lost sheep of the house of Israel in a great gathering, sifting and restoration. He gathers the wheat into his garner and the chaff goes into the fire. It was a great restoration, (Isa 53:6) and reformation. (Heb 8:613; 9:10-15; Mal 3: I-3, 16-18 and Jn 1: 11-13. ) The New Covenant was the charter of the restoration, because the nation was lost under the Old. (Jer 31:31-32; cf. Dt 28:15) But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of thy God to observe to do all his commandments, and his statutes, which I command thee this day, that all these curses shall come upon thee." Did you ever read these curses and terrible, awesome judgments in Dt 28? Even so, they broke his Old Covenant and they rejected the New. "The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved." (Jer 8:20.) Heart breaking words about Israel apart from Christ.

The proud Pharisees were well acquainted with the term all Israel. They were quite sure that it meant the natural descendants of Abraham through Jacob, that is, themselves. The warnings of Scripture were not for them. They had no need to be saved or born again. They had Abraham as their father. (Lk 3:7-9; Jn 8:39-48) The all Israel of lsa 45:25, "In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified." "All thy children shall be taught of the Lord," Isa 54:13 is the same as that in Ro 11:26-27. Pertaining to it Paul quotes Isa 59:20-21: "All Israel shall be saved." "There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. For this is my Covenant with them," and Paul paraphrases the obvious, "When I shall take away their sins." Isaiah is telling of what happened at the first coming of Christ. Peter preaching to the Jews in the temple declares the fulfillment of the same prophecy at Ac 3:25-26. Isaiah spoke of the new Israel upon whom God poured out his Holy Spirit and in whom Christ had planted God's word. (Cf. Isa 60:21 and 61:1-3.) The Deliverer certainly cleansed New Covenant Israel of all sins for only thus could they be filled with God's Spirit.

When quoting, "The gifts and calling of God are without repentance," (Ro 11:29) some intonate this as a final dictum meaning, "even though they are enemies, God called Israel his people so they still are and cannot be lost." Actually, it would rather mean, If God called you, then make sure you work out your calling, for God will certainly have an accounting with you. But read 1Sa 2:30; Jer 18:1-12: "They said ... we will walk after our own devices," 19:1-11 and Ro 11:22. "Behold the goodness and severity of God: on them that fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF thou continue in his goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." These references should sober our thinking. See also Heb 2:1-3.

They are not all Israel who are of Israel. Neither are they Israel because they are children of Abraham for in Isaac shall thy seed be called. They of the promise are counted for the seed. If you are Christ's, then are you Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. In Christ all the families of the earth shall be blest. We are not children by a fluke, but we are heirs by immediate translation. The true Israel is not the type but the reality--the Church of Jesus Christ. They of the flesh do not serve God in Christ Jesus or obey his words.

Paul is talking to his Gentile brothers in Galatians, "Now we, brethren, as Isaac was are the children of promise." Isaac was the Covenant one. lshmael in despising Isaac was cast out of the fellowship. Paul gives teaching of Christ by type found in Ge 21:1-12; Gal 4:19-31. Two women, two sons, two Jerusalems, two peoples. Hagar and Ishmael represented carnal Israel; Sarah and Isaac represented Christians. Nevertheless, "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, (the Jews) the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman." Apostate Israel even though they crucified the Lord of Glory is still called Israel and in Isaiah 1:9-10, they are called Sodom and Gomorrah. But Isaiah says, "Though the number of them be as the sand of the sea a remnant shall be saved." (Isa 8:14; 28:16)


cont......
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#2
THE REAL ISRAEL CONT....

The Church is also called Israel. (Hos 1:10; 2:23) Scofield declares these refer to flesh Israel being restored, but that is exactly opposite of the teaching of the Apostles Paul and Peter. Hosea speaks of rejection of carnal Israel, "Ye are not my people and I will not be your God." And in talking to the Gentiles they said "Ye were not a people but now are THE people of God." It is safer to believe the apostles than the Scofield notes. If the apostles interpret Hosea as we see they do, it may have even greater meaning than we have grasped. "In the place where it was said ye are not my people, there shall ye be called the children of God."

That the Church never appears in the prophets is a teaching that appears over and over in some Bible notes and is the basis for much teaching. They take the promises that God intended for the overcomers and apply them to flesh Israel. Those that follow on to know the Lord are Israel whether Jews or Gentiles. In the fulness of time, God would gather all in one. The early Church was entirely Jewish. "Remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh ... Ye were without Christ being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, strangers from the Covenant of promise having no hope and without God in the world." (Eph 2:11) "But now, in Christ Jesus ye who were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ." (v. 13)

The ultimate promise to Israel, "IF ye keep my Covenants ye shall be a special treasure unto me above all people ... Ye shall be a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation." (Mal 3:16-17) Under the old Mosaic Covenant no one could be a priest but Aaron and his family. When the priesthood was set aside, there came a change of the law. (Heb 7: 12) The order of Melchizedek's priesthood was forever. Jesus was from the tribe of Judah of which tribe Moses said nothing concerning priesthood. We, in Christ, have been made kings and priests unto God. (Rev 1:6)

In the communion service, we have the words, "This is the New Covenant in my blood which was shed for you." We read in Hebrews that the blood of bulls and goats could not wash away sin, could not make them perfect so they could come to God. The way into the holiest was not yet made manifest because the blood of Jesus was not yet shed. It could not be fulfilled until the Old Covenant was taken away and the New Covenant brought in. Under the Old Covenant they could walk in God's favor, IF they walked in his Covenant. It did not bring cleansing from sin, make them new creatures, or kings and priests unto God. But it would keep them in the path that would lead to Jesus and his salvation blessings.

Exodus 19:1-8 is quoted in Jeremiah 7:23-26: "Obey my voice, keep my Covenant and I will be your God ... they hearkened not, but walked in the imagination of their evil heart. I sent prophets, they hearkened not. They did worse than their fathers. (v. 28.) This is a nation that obeyeth not the voice of their God, nor receiveth correction: truth is perished and cut off from their mouth." Israel disobeyed God after he had given them mercy after mercy. At last, God said they would go into punishment. Jeremiah 7:33-34 was explicitly fulfilled as God poured out his wrath to the uttermost on Christ rejecting Israel in A.D. 70 in the destruction of Jerusalem.

Jeremiah had a vision of figs--some good and some bad. Some were delectable and the others so bad that they could not be eaten. (Jer 24) This is Israel--some very bad, some a godly Remnant. All the curses are aimed at the bad figs, the disobedient ones. Malachi had to deal with the apostate Israel. God is distressed with them, but "they that feared the Lord spake often one to another and a book of remembrance was written ... for them that feared the Lord and thought upon his name. They shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels, and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him." (Mal 3:16-17)

God was looking for the time when he could gather together his Cegulah -- his special treasure -- his flock would be his children. (Mt 24, Isa 1:8-10) "He came unto his own and his own received him not, but as many as received him to them gave he the power to become sons of God even to them that believe on his name." (Jn 1:11-12) They were his Cegulah not because they were Abraham's seed or natural children of Israel, but they received Messiah and in him became a new creation. "He hath begotten us again to a lively hope by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ." (1Pe 1:3)

They could now say to the churches scattered across Asia Minor and to us in our time (to Gentiles but was written to Jews): "Whom having not seen ye love, and though ye see him not, yet believing ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls." (1Pe 1:8-9)

"Ye were not redeemed with corruptible things as silver and gold ... but by the precious blood of Christ as of a lamb without blemish and without spot." (1Pe 1:18-19) "Being born again not of corruptible seed, but by the word of God which liveth and abideth forever." (1Pe 1:23) "Behold I lay in Zion a chief cornerstone, elect, precious and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded ... Unto them which be disobedient a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense." (1Pe 2:6-8) "You also as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood to offer up sacrifice," (1Pe 2:5) He says unto them, "Ye are a chosen generation. a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people." (v. 9)

Many Bible schools teach that the Church does not appear in the prophets and that the theme of the prophets is national Israel and all the glorious things spoken by them apply to the Israelis in the land now. That is exactly opposite to the apostles' teaching, contrary to the original apostles, the early Church and all the Reformers. Such teaching is false. (Ac 3:22-26) All the prophets spoke of these days.

Hear the details from the Scofield note on Eph 3: "In his (Paul's) writings alone we find the doctrines, position, walk and destiny of the church." The teaching that the prophets do not mention the church is a tremendous lie that has thrown a blanket of darkness over God's people and robbed them of the promises of God.

The born again new Israel was to be Israel and also Church, (1Pe 1:23-25) ecclesia--from Moses through the prophets. (Mt 16) Some think that when Jesus said, "Upon this rock I will build my church," that this was the first appearance of the word Church. It appears in Moses and Old Testament as prophecy of the people of God as a promise of the true people of God in the New Testament. They gave the Church the name qahal as it is God's true Israel. God divided his promises between the good Israel and the bad Israel. He says to the disobedient that all the curses of the law are their promises, that all the blessings are for the good Israel. God never refers to them as one block, but carefully distinguishes between the apostates and the obedient Israel including the Gentiles. In the apostles' teaching there is only one promise for the disobedient--damnation. The door of salvation is open to whosoever will. If a Jew receives Christ, he will be saved as will a Gentile. There is nothing that prevents a Jew from believing. There are Jews who love Jesus. I thank God for them. If Jews accept Jesus, they will be accepted of the Father. But the Scripture says, "Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son ... HATH NOT THE FATHER." (1Jn 2:22-23a.)

But Scofield knows better. On page 922 SRB, "Israel is to be restored and forgiven, wife of Jehovah; the church the virgin wife of the Lamb. Israel is Jehovah's earthly wife and the church the Lamb's heavenly bride." (Cf. 1Co 6:9-11; Gal 2:15) So says Scofield!

Some kindhearted people object. "True they don't accept Jesus, but they have the Father." Not so! According to Jesus' own words in Jn 15:23, "He that hateth me hateth my Father also." We dare not go along with teachers that say that Israel loves God when the apostle says they have not the Spirit of God, neither do they love God. In Php 3:2, Paul warns to beware of Israel after the flesh that they are the enemies of Jesus. "Their minds are blinded because of false teaching and the veil upon their heart shall be taken away when they turn to the Lord." (2Co 3:14-16)

What about the verse that says, "They shall look upon him whom they have pierced?" Then they get saved? That is another false doctrine. Matthew tells us what will happen to the ones who have not believed on the Lord up to the moment of his coming. (Mt 8:12) "The children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness and there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

(A note from Scofield on Ro 11, p. 1204, SRB.) "That the Christian church now inherits the distinctive Jewish promises is not taught in Scripture. The Christian is of the heavenly seed of Abraham and partakes of the spiritual blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant, but Israel as a nation always has its own place, and is yet to have its greatest exaltation as the earthly people of God."

What a distortion of the plain Scriptures that have just been cited. That is wishful thinking. God has no earthly people. (Jn 14:6; 1Co 1:29 and 15:45-50.) "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God."

"Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you and to you who are troubled, rest with us when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God and obey not the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and the glory of his power when (Lk 13:25-28) he shall come to be glorified in his saints and to be admired in all them that believe." (2Th 1:6-10) These are the ones who love him and have been waiting for him. The true Church enters into rest on the day the Lord destroys the wicked, when they receive the sentence of eternal death. He makes it plain that he comes pouring out judgment. The great judgment is the day of their destruction. See 1Th 4:13-17. "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works thereof shall be burned up." (2Pe 3:10)
It was to the Church of Jesus Christ that the gospel was preached by the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven. "Surely the Lord will do nothing that he does not reveal his secret unto his servants the prophets." (Amos 3:7)

Paul says in Ac 26:22, "I continue to this day witnessing to both small and great saying none other things than that spoken by Moses and the prophets." Everything about the Church is from the Old Testament and this is the burden of Paul's teaching. Isaiah 53 is about the head of the Church dying for his people. The Father has put Gentiles together with the commonwealth of Israel and made one new man in Christ Jesus. He did not make a Gentile Church. Salvation is of the Jews. "Fear not, little flock, it is the Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom." He took the kingdom away from apostate Israel and so built the Church. Paul, quoting Joel, tells the glory of the Church in Acts 2 indicating that Christ is risen from the dead and is seated on the right hand of God fulfilling the Davidic Covenant which is detailed in Ps 110:1. He is seated to reign through this age of grace when good and evil struggle together.

This age is the end of that struggle. It is described in Mt 13:37-43. There will be no more struggle between good and evil after the end of this age. Paul taught the same thing: 1Co 15:24-26 refers to Ps 110:1. Peter preached the same on Pentecost as fulfilled by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. Paul preached on it in reference to the close of the age and that Christ will remain on that throne UNTIL every enemy is conquered and the last enemy is death. Only then will he leave his glorious heavenly throne to come down to gather the saints still alive, bringing those who had died in Christ with him to receive their Resurrection bodies. Peter quoting Joel 2:28-32 about the outpouring of the Spirit, stops in mid verse because the rest of it is obvious, "For whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered." (v. 32.) Paul quotes it in Ro 10:13.

If you had been in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost, there would have been only one place you would have found salvation, in the 120 and their preaching of the kingdom of God which is a spiritual reality that no man can see or enter except he be born again. Except he is a new creature in Christ nothing else matters.

Joel predicts that marvelous scene and that initial voice of the gospel in the crowning of Jesus. Some say it will be fulfilled in the millennium, but Jesus said that at the end of THIS AGE he would send his angels and gather out all that offend and they shall be cast into the fire. No more of the wicked and righteous mingling together to the torment and oppression of God's people. It is the end of this age. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their father. "Angels in flaming fire take vengeance on them that obey not the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and the glory of his power when he shall come to be glorified in his saints and to be admired in all them that believe." "We enter into rest the day the Lord destroys the wicked when they receive the sentence of eternal death and flaming fire is poured out on them that obey not the gospel. Some say that we will be raptured away, but like a thief in the night he comes to destroy the wicked." (2Th 1:7-10 and 2Pe 3:10)

The Greek says they shall in no wise escape, he will in no wise miss the redeemed and he will not miss the wicked ... all those will be destroyed. We have the wicked consumed with the brightness of his coming exactly as is described. There are no wicked left to go into a millennium, Mt 13:40-42, 49, 50. When he comes it is to save his own. If the Jews turn to the Lord they can be saved also. "There is none other name under heaven whereby we must be saved." (Ac 4:12) This is the only way to be saved or to shed the spirit of antichrist. It must be done NOW while the door is open and they can say, blessed be he who comes in the name of the Lord.

Christians do the Jews a great wrong when they suggest that they will have a second chance or that being fleshly children of Abraham can bring salvation. The Jewish people suffered the worst destruction ever brought upon any people in A.D. 70 because they refused to believe the Scriptures that plainly prophesied of the coming of the Messiah. They knew when he was to come because of Daniel 9, but since he did not meet their preconceived ideas of what they expected Messiah to be, they crucified him and suffered the loss of everything. All those who refuse to believe God's more sure word of prophecy concerning Christ's Second Coming, are headed for everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord when he shall come to be glorified in his saints.

Paul explains the reason for their blindness in 2Co 3:13-16: "And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the Old Testament; which veil is done away in Christ ... unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away."

Only the Holy Spirit can remove the veil. I love the Jewish people and pray that God may grant them this great mercy that they may behold Jesus, their Messiah, in time to be saved from eternal loss.


http://www.gospeltruth.net/scofield.htm
 
Last edited:
Jul 6, 2010
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After today I am to be absent from cc for about a month & a bit...good news huh. So i decided to answer this post now. My last attempt at talking to you...i'm a softy after all.

You seem to believe that we say Israel will get a second chance? We do not say this and you are in error and have not understood our speech.

Israel gets no second chance Zone. But what am i saying to you? LISTEN and read very slowly...

In every generation of Israel there are two baskets. One basket has good figs, and one basket has bad figs. Now God made PROMISES to those good figs of yesterday. Those REMNANTS of good figs make up ALL OF national ISRAEL. THOSE remnants. Not EVERY Jew, but EVERY REMNANT God kept aside through every generation of Jews...these are to whom His PROMISE was to. And He promised to bring them back into the land of Israel and FEED them there, and give them REST, and TEACHERS (the resurrected) and all the outsiders will weep when they see they are cast OUTSIDE...the HEATHEN will WITNESS this. Jewish outcasts are considered HEATHENS also.

John ch6 explains what FEEDING means. Within the OT God foretells of the BRANCH (Jesus) He will raise up to Israel. "BOTH" Israels (will explain that below), that is the National good fig Jews and the Spiritual Jews (Gentiles) and these TWO groups will eventually become ONE. But before this happens (become one) , those Jewish REMNANTS of yesterday (good figs) need to learn of Jesus and feed on His flesh. For by the feeding of Christs flesh, we receive the Holy Spirit. And this Spirit is used to raise us and change us into Spirit (Romans 8:11). This Spirit was not given to men until Jesus ascended and in His Fathers Name was this Spirit SENT unto men. Not before, but AFTER Christ was in the world. The good figs already dead had no access to this SPIRIT.

Now those good figs do not have that Spirit IN them. They have the law of Moses. They are EMPTY of that Holy Spirit which is used to raise them. And God PROMISED that He will forgive these good figs and DID, and PROMISED that one DAY He will feed them in Jerusalem By a SHEPHERD, and they will learn of Him IN TRUTH. And since He has forgiven these good figs (Jere 50:20), these will get the opportunity to learn of Jesus and NOT be judged in the second resurrection with the sinners, that is, not judged BY their (sinners) judgment. Which is a judgment with no mercy, but a weighing of the heart, good deeds against bad deeds. And those of the sinners in that judgment, if their good deeds outweigh the bad, God will decide whether they receive reward of life eternal or not.

SO GOD DECIDES...and technically they (sinners NOT the good figs i speak about here) do not "make it" by THEIR DEEDS else they could BOAST, but instead, we find they DID SIN and SIN unwashed is indeed found in them, SIN unwashed by Christs blood !! So they do not make it by their own righteousness BUT by GODS decision alone...So BOASTING is cancelled OUT. For GOD DECIDES if they "make it" and NOT their deeds of which weighed out, they are judged by, for God will take each mans CIRCUMSTANCES into account. So it is still a very harsh judgment no doubt hard to bear, and only God knows how many will pass, and we can only assume that they be but a very small number who pass such a harsh judgment without Christs blood washing them clean. But that's OUR assumption of NUMBERS SAVED...Only God knows.

So why would these good figs partake of that 2nd judgment for non believers when God Himself has pardoned their (remnants) sins? (Jere 50:20). For the first (Jews) will be last (resurrected) and the last (Gentiles) will be first (resurrected). These REMNANTS are the ones PROVOKED TO JEALOUSY by God. For though they were pardoned, they still did things which angered God, to pardon them means they did indeed do wrong. But God measured their hearts and gave mercy nevertheless (FOR HIS NAMES SAKE AND NOT THEIRS AND FOR HIS PROMISES). And again, that Holy Spirit was not in the world until Jesus ascended, so now those remnants need be raised from the dead in the flesh and fed that same Spirit the Gentiles received, and in that Spirit is LIFE. And in the 2nd resurrection those remnants will be changed into spirit also (rewarded NOT judged with the sinners) and NOW become ONE with the 1st resurrection group. Israel is THEN united as ONE.

And you claim in the above that there was a fulfillment of the PROMISE of the Jews being taught by Jesus THAT Shepherd....And there it is !!! FULFILLED YOU SAY ??? But you are WRONG....BECAUSE NO good figs of OLD were raised Zone !!! So HOW can it be as your Scofield claims? THEY HAVE NOT YET BEEN RAISED...So HE GOT IT WRONG BIG TIME...This is why we must not put faith in men, but ONLY read the bible. He got it mixed up.


Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Babes: untrained believers.
Wise & Prudent: TRAINED Scholars accepted by MEN.

1 Peter 2:2

As newborn BABES, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

There you go...babes are believers.


So who is Israel? There is ONE Israel BUT in TWO STAGES of REDEMPTION.

So you see, this is why there is still flesh during the millennium, they need that Spirit put into them.

The 1st stage: The "NEW" Israel are the Gentiles and any Jew who follow Christ. These have something the first Israel group do not have....THE GRAFTED HOLY SPIRIT.... the last to be first.


2nd stage:The firstborn created nation of Israel consisting of good figs whom God has pardoned and will feed with Truth through the Branch, who will sit on His throne in Jerusalem whilst ruling His enemies with a rod of iron, having mercy on those good figs from among men of flesh at that point in time BEFORE handing back the kingdom to His Father, These are the first to be last.

Romans 8:11
But IF the SPIRIT of HIM that raised up Jesus from the dead DWELL IN YOU...He that raised Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies BY HIS SPIRIT THAT DWELLETH IN YOU.

Be raised..BY...BY....BY THAT....BY THAT...BY THAT SPIRIT....BY THAT SPIRIT...BY THAT SPIRIT THAT DWELLS....BY THAT SPIRIT THAT DWELLS...BY THAT SPIRIT THAT DWELLS IN YOU...DWELLS IN YOU...DWELLS IN YOU...IN YOU...IN YOU...RAISED INTO SPIRIT BY THAT SPIRIT IN YOU...

So without that Spirit....you will NOT be CHANGED into Spirit. So what of those good figs that do not have THAT Spirit which was NOT in the World for those good figs that God pardoned and made PROMISES to? HOW will they be raised without FIRST feeding on that Spirit that will DWELL in them and GRAFT onto their OWN SOULS as it does in ours? Will they suffer a MERCILESS judgment with the SINNERS in the 2nd resurrection???

I DOUBT IT ZONE....THAT IS WHAT YOUR INTERPRETATION CONDEMNS THEM TO...YOU condemn the good figs to JOIN in with the sinners judgment.

So you see, all along you could not hear what we were saying...do you hear it now?






 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#4
After today I am to be absent from cc for about a month & a bit...good news huh. So i decided to answer this post now. My last attempt at talking to you...i'm a softy after all.

You seem to believe that we say Israel will get a second chance? We do not say this and you are in error and have not understood our speech.

Israel gets no second chance Zone. But what am i saying to you? LISTEN and read very slowly...

In every generation of Israel there are two baskets. One basket has good figs, and one basket has bad figs. Now God made PROMISES to those good figs of yesterday. Those REMNANTS of good figs make up ALL OF national ISRAEL. THOSE remnants. Not EVERY Jew, but EVERY REMNANT God kept aside through every generation of Jews...these are to whom His PROMISE was to. And He promised to bring them back into the land of Israel and FEED them there, and give them REST, and TEACHERS (the resurrected) and all the outsiders will weep when they see they are cast OUTSIDE...the HEATHEN will WITNESS this. Jewish outcasts are considered HEATHENS also.

John ch6 explains what FEEDING means. Within the OT God foretells of the BRANCH (Jesus) He will raise up to Israel. "BOTH" Israels (will explain that below), that is the National good fig Jews and the Spiritual Jews (Gentiles) and these TWO groups will eventually become ONE. But before this happens (become one) , those Jewish REMNANTS of yesterday (good figs) need to learn of Jesus and feed on His flesh. For by the feeding of Christs flesh, we receive the Holy Spirit. And this Spirit is used to raise us and change us into Spirit (Romans 8:11). This Spirit was not given to men until Jesus ascended and in His Fathers Name was this Spirit SENT unto men. Not before, but AFTER Christ was in the world. The good figs already dead had no access to this SPIRIT.

Now those good figs do not have that Spirit IN them. They have the law of Moses. They are EMPTY of that Holy Spirit which is used to raise them. And God PROMISED that He will forgive these good figs and DID, and PROMISED that one DAY He will feed them in Jerusalem By a SHEPHERD, and they will learn of Him IN TRUTH. And since He has forgiven these good figs (Jere 50:20), these will get the opportunity to learn of Jesus and NOT be judged in the second resurrection with the sinners, that is, not judged BY their (sinners) judgment. Which is a judgment with no mercy, but a weighing of the heart, good deeds against bad deeds. And those of the sinners in that judgment, if their good deeds outweigh the bad, God will decide whether they receive reward of life eternal or not.

SO GOD DECIDES...and technically they (sinners NOT the good figs i speak about here) do not "make it" by THEIR DEEDS else they could BOAST, but instead, we find they DID SIN and SIN unwashed is indeed found in them, SIN unwashed by Christs blood !! So they do not make it by their own righteousness BUT by GODS decision alone...So BOASTING is cancelled OUT. For GOD DECIDES if they "make it" and NOT their deeds of which weighed out, they are judged by, for God will take each mans CIRCUMSTANCES into account. So it is still a very harsh judgment no doubt hard to bear, and only God knows how many will pass, and we can only assume that they be but a very small number who pass such a harsh judgment without Christs blood washing them clean. But that's OUR assumption of NUMBERS SAVED...Only God knows.

So why would these good figs partake of that 2nd judgment for non believers when God Himself has pardoned their (remnants) sins? (Jere 50:20). For the first (Jews) will be last (resurrected) and the last (Gentiles) will be first (resurrected). These REMNANTS are the ones PROVOKED TO JEALOUSY by God. For though they were pardoned, they still did things which angered God, to pardon them means they did indeed do wrong. But God measured their hearts and gave mercy nevertheless (FOR HIS NAMES SAKE AND NOT THEIRS AND FOR HIS PROMISES). And again, that Holy Spirit was not in the world until Jesus ascended, so now those remnants need be raised from the dead in the flesh and fed that same Spirit the Gentiles received, and in that Spirit is LIFE. And in the 2nd resurrection those remnants will be changed into spirit also (rewarded NOT judged with the sinners) and NOW become ONE with the 1st resurrection group. Israel is THEN united as ONE.

And you claim in the above that there was a fulfillment of the PROMISE of the Jews being taught by Jesus THAT Shepherd....And there it is !!! FULFILLED YOU SAY ??? But you are WRONG....BECAUSE NO good figs of OLD were raised Zone !!! So HOW can it be as your Scofield claims? THEY HAVE NOT YET BEEN RAISED...So HE GOT IT WRONG BIG TIME...This is why we must not put faith in men, but ONLY read the bible. He got it mixed up.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Babes: untrained believers.
Wise & Prudent: TRAINED Scholars accepted by MEN.

1 Peter 2:2
As newborn BABES, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

There you go...babes are believers.


So who is Israel? There is ONE Israel BUT in TWO STAGES of REDEMPTION.

So you see, this is why there is still flesh during the millennium, they need that Spirit put into them.

The 1st stage: The "NEW" Israel are the Gentiles and any Jew who follow Christ. These have something the first Israel group do not have....THE GRAFTED HOLY SPIRIT.... the last to be first.

2nd stage:The firstborn created nation of Israel consisting of good figs whom God has pardoned and will feed with Truth through the Branch, who will sit on His throne in Jerusalem whilst ruling His enemies with a rod of iron, having mercy on those good figs from among men of flesh at that point in time BEFORE handing back the kingdom to His Father, These are the first to be last.

Romans 8:11
But IF the SPIRIT of HIM that raised up Jesus from the dead DWELL IN YOU...He that raised Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies BY HIS SPIRIT THAT DWELLETH IN YOU.

Be raised..BY...BY....BY THAT....BY THAT...BY THAT SPIRIT....BY THAT SPIRIT...BY THAT SPIRIT THAT DWELLS....BY THAT SPIRIT THAT DWELLS...BY THAT SPIRIT THAT DWELLS IN YOU...DWELLS IN YOU...DWELLS IN YOU...IN YOU...IN YOU...RAISED INTO SPIRIT BY THAT SPIRIT IN YOU...

So without that Spirit....you will NOT be CHANGED into Spirit. So what of those good figs that do not have THAT Spirit which was NOT in the World for those good figs that God pardoned and made PROMISES to? HOW will they be raised without FIRST feeding on that Spirit that will DWELL in them and GRAFT onto their OWN SOULS as it does in ours? Will they suffer a MERCILESS judgment with the SINNERS in the 2nd resurrection???

I DOUBT IT ZONE....THAT IS WHAT YOUR INTERPRETATION CONDEMNS THEM TO...YOU condemn the good figs to JOIN in with the sinners judgment.

So you see, all along you could not hear what we were saying...do you hear it now
Isreal gets a second chance? uh....huh?

why do you insist on wasting so much time and energy?

i posted all that showing SCOFIELD WAS A STOOGE and his teachings are junk....that's where you got the dispensational stuff you keep yakking about.

struck out again devo.:rolleyes:
 
Jul 6, 2010
431
4
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#5
Isreal gets a second chance? uh....huh?

why do you insist on wasting so much time and energy?

i posted all that showing SCOFIELD WAS A STOOGE and his teachings are junk....that's where you got the dispensational stuff you keep yakking about.

struck out again devo.:rolleyes:
NO SECOND CHANCE FOR ISRAEL...SEE ... You did not even read it. YOU DID NOT EVEN READ IT !!!! Impossible that you read what i wrote weighing up what was written honestly. Because you just CONTRADICTED what i said ALREADY. Why is it so hard to believe that our understanding comes from the bible only??? We have never heard of Scofield. We have NOT formed any opinions from RELIGIONS or DOCTRINES of men. BEFORE i finally submitted 3 years ago, YES i had a mixture of beliefs common with many here on cc...but i had to FORSAKE everything i thought i knew and LEARN again from scratch...like a child would. Why? Because God chastised me and showed me i knew NOTHING. All i know now is not what i used to believe. And what i used to believe was a mixture of conspiracy theories mixed with MY interpretation of the bible...NOT my interpretations mixed with religious interpretations.

But you can not hear us. You despise us so much that you will not even look closely at what we are saying. It does not bother me you think we are whatever you think we are...what bothers me is you say we are that which we are not...and that is plagiarists of mans religions of which we do not nor ever have acknowledged or learnt from. But you can not fathom that Jesus' promise to teach His flock by the Spirit is true..for this is where we learnt all we know from...the written Word ONLY.

YES you are correct on one point and one point only...i am wasting my time with you.

 
Jan 14, 2010
1,010
5
0
#6
last time i read the Bible, we, Christians, only those who are circumcised in the spirit, are the true Israel of God (Galatians, Ephesians, Colossians, Romans)
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#7
NO SECOND CHANCE FOR ISRAEL...SEE ... You did not even read it. YOU DID NOT EVEN READ IT !!!! Impossible that you read what i wrote weighing up what was written honestly. Because you just CONTRADICTED what i said ALREADY. Why is it so hard to believe that our understanding comes from the bible only??? We have never heard of Scofield. We have NOT formed any opinions from RELIGIONS or DOCTRINES of men. BEFORE i finally submitted 3 years ago, YES i had a mixture of beliefs common with many here on cc...but i had to FORSAKE everything i thought i knew and LEARN again from scratch...like a child would. Why? Because God chastised me and showed me i knew NOTHING. All i know now is not what i used to believe. And what i used to believe was a mixture of conspiracy theories mixed with MY interpretation of the bible...NOT my interpretations mixed with religious interpretations.

But you can not hear us. You despise us so much that you will not even look closely at what we are saying. It does not bother me you think we are whatever you think we are...what bothers me is you say we are that which we are not...and that is plagiarists of mans religions of which we do not nor ever have acknowledged or learnt from. But you can not fathom that Jesus' promise to teach His flock by the Spirit is true..for this is where we learnt all we know from...the written Word ONLY.

YES you are correct on one point and one point only...i am wasting my time with you.
you have a cult of 3 who are admittedly self-taught, you think i hate you which is not surprising given your persecution complex as you tell the church its about to be destroyed, and you post some of the funkiest doctrine i've seen.

the Written Word ONLY? the evidence of your combined posts says NO.

tata.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#8
last time i read the Bible, we, Christians, only those who are circumcised in the spirit, are the true Israel of God (Galatians, Ephesians, Colossians, Romans)
seems the usual number are in unbelief concerning that. looks like they are heading back to The Law.

 
Jan 14, 2010
1,010
5
0
#9
thats the same mistake the Jews made in the old testament... they were more focused on the law rather than the faith behind it.

we're becoming the sanhedrin.
 
Jun 24, 2010
3,822
19
0
#11
Originally Posted by Zilla64007

last time i read the Bible, we, Christians, only those who are circumcised in the spirit, are the true Israel of God (Galatians, Ephesians, Colossians, Romans)
seems the usual number are in unbelief concerning that. looks like they are heading back to The Law.

You take (Rom 2:28,29) literally concerning the definition of a Jew and use that to justify the church going through the tribulation, but you don't take 1,000 years literally in relationship to Christ's millennial reign here upon the earth when it mentions it (6) times in the first (7) verses of (Rev 20:1-7)? Even 'endofallfears' made a good point that you never responded to...

quote - Concerning numeric symbolism in the Biblical prophecy, we cannot say the sixty-nine "sevens" is a literal 483 years, and then say the 1000 years of the millennium is allegorical, unless there is a good CONTEXTUAL reason. - unquote

Are we being a little selective in who we respond to when they make a very sound point that contradicts your view and understanding? Do you have a good CONTEXUAL reason? Don't let all your research cloud your understanding concerning Christ and His church and make you wrestle with the scriptures as one who is out of joint.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#12
You take (Rom 2:28,29) literally concerning the definition of a Jew and use that to justify the church going through the tribulation, but you don't take 1,000 years literally in relationship to Christ's millennial reign here upon the earth when it mentions it (6) times in the first (7) verses of (Rev 20:1-7)? Even 'endofallfears' made a good point that you never responded to...

quote - Concerning numeric symbolism in the Biblical prophecy, we cannot say the sixty-nine "sevens" is a literal 483 years, and then say the 1000 years of the millennium is allegorical, unless there is a good CONTEXTUAL reason. - unquote

Are we being a little selective in who we respond to when they make a very sound point that contradicts your view and understanding? Do you have a good CONTEXUAL reason? Don't let all your research cloud your understanding concerning Christ and His church and make you wrestle with the scriptures as one who is out of joint.
Why did I choose the name twoagespilgrims.com for my Website? The expression “two ages” is derived from the teaching of Christ and the apostles about “this age” and “the age to come.” The Lord Jesus Christ himself mentions these two ages. In Luke 18:29-30, for example, he says that those who sacrifice everything for the sake of his kingdom will “receive many times as much in this age and, in the age to come, eternal life.”1 The apostle Paul also teaches that after his resurrection, Christ presently sits at the right hand of God in the heavenly places, ruling the universe for the believer’s sake, “not only in this age but also in the age to come” (Eph. 1:20-21).

We know that we live in this “present evil age” (Gal. 1:4), but what about the age to come – when is it coming? Or has it already come? Again, Jesus and the apostles declare that this age to come is not entirely a future era. Jesus equates the phrase “kingdom of God” (or “kingdom of heaven”) with the “age to come.” And he taught that this kingdom of God was ushered in when he first came into the world 2,000 years ago, saying in Luke 17:21, “Behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you,” and again in Matt. 12:28, “The kingdom of God has come upon you.” Paul taught that we are now in the age to come, saying, “the end of the ages has come” upon us (1 Cor. 10:11). Heb. 9:26 also taught that Christ “has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.”

Pilgrims Between Two Ages


come out of Babylon
 
Jan 14, 2010
1,010
5
0
#13
if i recall, Paul himself was a Benjamite, and he himself taught all were one in Christ... I'm not the one foolishly believing the lies of Dispensationalism / Christian Zionism

while i do believe in a thousand yr reign, i dont believe israel & the church are separate. the bible doesnt teach that.