The Bible Alone?

[Scotth1960]

"Friends,
Questions from Evangelicals.

"The Bible Alone? The true Christian faith is based on the Bible alone.

"The Bible never has been and never can be "alone." It was the Orthodox Catholic Church

that finally decided what books belonged in the Bible and what did not. In the era following

the death of the Apostles, there were many books that claimed to be Apostolic Scripture.

The Church decided what books were authentic and what were not, based on whether or

not those books conformed to the oral tradition she had received from the Apostles.

Without the Church there would be no Bible. Heresies and distortions result when the

Bible is torn away from the Church or interpreted privately outside of the catholic

traditions of the Church (cf. 2 Peter 3;!6). The same Holy Spirit that inspired the Scriptures

is promised to guide the Church unto all truth and preserve her from error (cf. John

16:13). The Bible is not "alone" --- it belongs to the Church.

"The Invisible Church and the Denominations

"The Church of Christ is invisible. I don't believe in the Orthodox Church or any other

denomination.

"The Orthodox Church is not a "denomination." It is identical to the Church that was

established by the Apostles, that vanquished early heresies such as Gnosticism and

Arianism, that proclaimed the canon of Scripture, and that defined the great Christian

doctrines relating to the Trinity and the divine and human natures of Christ. Orthodox

Church history can be traced from Jesus Christ himself directly to modern times without

interruption. It is impossible to claim that the Church is invisible. Were the local

churches established by the Apostles invisible? Did the formation of the Bible take

place outside of history? Were not the great heresies defeated in history by the historical

Church? The truth is, then, that the Church is visible, it has a history, and it is identical to

the Orthodox Church of today.

"The Bible and Tradition

"But Orthodoxy de-emphasizes the Bible and stresses the importance of tradition.

"Orthodoxy does not de-emphasize the Bible. The Orthodox Church accepts the Bible as

the divinely-inspired, infallible Word of God. The Bible has unparalleled authority in the

Church of God when it comes to faith and practice. But the Orthodox Church insists that

the Scriptures must be interpreted according to the catholic tradition of the Church. This

"catholic tradition" is based on the oral teaching of the Apostles as it has been handed

down in the Church (cf. 2 Thess. 2:15). It is the result of the fact that the Holy Spirit

lives in the Church (cf. John 14:26). It is enshrined in the teachings of Ecumenical

Councils of the Church and the teachings of the saints and Church Fathers. Those who

live in the fullness of the Holy Spirit are our best guides to the Scriptures; it is they who

testify to the deep union between Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition in the Church."

(pages 12-14: An Eastern Orthodox Response to Evangelical Claims. by Fr. Paul

O'Callaghan. of the Antiochian Archdiocese. Copyright 1984. Light and Life Publishing

Company, Minneapolis, MN).

God save us in Christ Jesus our LORD. Amen. In Erie PA USA Scott R. Harrington

 

[Scotth1960]

"Friends,
Questions from Evangelicals.

"The Bible Alone? The true Christian faith is based on the Bible alone.

"The Bible never has been and never can be "alone." It was the Orthodox Catholic Church

that finally decided what books belonged in the Bible and what did not. In the era following

the death of the Apostles, there were many books that claimed to be Apostolic Scripture.

The Church decided what books were authentic and what were not, based on whether or

not those books conformed to the oral tradition she had received from the Apostles.

Without the Church there would be no Bible. Heresies and distortions result when the

Bible is torn away from the Church or interpreted privately outside of the catholic

traditions of the Church (cf. 2 Peter 3;!6). The same Holy Spirit that inspired the Scriptures

is promised to guide the Church unto all truth and preserve her from error (cf. John

16:13). The Bible is not "alone" --- it belongs to the Church.

"The Invisible Church and the Denominations

"The Church of Christ is invisible. I don't believe in the Orthodox Church or any other

denomination.

"The Orthodox Church is not a "denomination." It is identical to the Church that was

established by the Apostles, that vanquished early heresies such as Gnosticism and

Arianism, that proclaimed the canon of Scripture, and that defined the great Christian

doctrines relating to the Trinity and the divine and human natures of Christ. Orthodox

Church history can be traced from Jesus Christ himself directly to modern times without

interruption. It is impossible to claim that the Church is invisible. Were the local

churches established by the Apostles invisible? Did the formation of the Bible take

place outside of history? Were not the great heresies defeated in history by the historical

Church? The truth is, then, that the Church is visible, it has a history, and it is identical to

the Orthodox Church of today.

"The Bible and Tradition

"But Orthodoxy de-emphasizes the Bible and stresses the importance of tradition.

"Orthodoxy does not de-emphasize the Bible. The Orthodox Church accepts the Bible as

the divinely-inspired, infallible Word of God. The Bible has unparalleled authority in the

Church of God when it comes to faith and practice. But the Orthodox Church insists that

the Scriptures must be interpreted according to the catholic tradition of the Church. This

"catholic tradition" is based on the oral teaching of the Apostles as it has been handed

down in the Church (cf. 2 Thess. 2:15). It is the result of the fact that the Holy Spirit

lives in the Church (cf. John 14:26). It is enshrined in the teachings of Ecumenical

Councils of the Church and the teachings of the saints and Church Fathers. Those who

live in the fullness of the Holy Spirit are our best guides to the Scriptures; it is they who

testify to the deep union between Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition in the Church."

(pages 12-14: An Eastern Orthodox Response to Evangelical Claims. by Fr. Paul

O'Callaghan. of the Antiochian Archdiocese. Copyright 1984. Light and Life Publishing

Company, Minneapolis, MN).

God save us in Christ Jesus our LORD. Amen. In Erie PA USA Scott R. Harrington

More from "An Eastern Orthodox Response to Evangelical Claims"; page 7:
"Traditions or Scripture? The Orthodox Church follows many traditions not found in Holy

Scripture. "The Orthodox Church does keep traditions that are not expressly found in the

Scriptures. St. Paul wrote: "Hold to the traditions you were taught by us, whether by

word of mouth or letter" (II Thess. 2:15). The Orthodox Church adheres to the complete

Apostolic teaching, whether this is contained in the bible or comes to us by oral tradition

in the Church. The Apostle Paul did not write "Don't hold any traditions unless they are

found in Scripture."

Take care. God bless you. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[hybrexs]

Yer man the bibles so important because its god speaking to us, god cant always preform miracles to us so this is what he uses for us to keep in his faith. its a journey with Jesus. sadly some people to my amazement think that you dont need the bible, yes god does preform miracles and help people in different ways, but this is his hand and we have to bath in his wisdom or else we wont be in heaven with him.

 

[zone]

More from "An Eastern Orthodox Response to Evangelical Claims"; page 7:
"Traditions or Scripture? The Orthodox Church follows many traditions not found in Holy

Scripture. "The Orthodox Church does keep traditions that are not expressly found in the

Scriptures. St. Paul wrote: "Hold to the traditions you were taught by us, whether by

word of mouth or letter" (II Thess. 2:15). The Orthodox Church adheres to the complete

Apostolic teaching, whether this is contained in the bible or comes to us by oral tradition

in the Church. The Apostle Paul did not write "Don't hold any traditions unless they are

found in Scripture."

Take care. God bless you. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

Scott:
is there salvation outside the OC?
zone.

 

[resurrection33]

The most important part of our faith is our relationship with the Lord. The first and great commandment is to love the Lord our God with all our hearts, minds, and souls.

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

I personally believe in sola scriptura, that scripture is indeed the absolute standard that all doctrinre should bne measured. We should accept no teaching, preaching or doctrine that doesn't line up with scripture. I believe that we should take the word at face value, never pulling any verse out olf it's intended context and never attempt to add to scripture of take away from scripture. While I do believe that the Holy Spirit will give personal revelation concerning scripture, I also believe that this revelation will never conflict with scripture.

That is why I choose to be an Absolute / Pure Continuationist, that I do not accept such teachings as Dispensationism, Cessationism, Pre Trib Rapture or Unconditional Eternal Security (I believe in Eternal Security just not the version held by Baptists). All of these doctrines attempt to either add to or take away from scripture or you have to pull several verses out of context and put them together in orderto make your point.

 

[Scotth1960]

Scott:
is there salvation outside the OC?
zone.

God says, "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy". It's up to God who will be saved, whether inside or outside the Orthodox Church (OC). There is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ.

See: Tillman, Fr. David. What About the Non-Orthodox? Conciliar Press, P.O. Box 76,
Ben Lomond, CA 95005-0076 Call or write for a free catalog 1-800-967-7377
1-832-336-5118

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The most important part of our faith is our relationship with the Lord. The first and great commandment is to love the Lord our God with all our hearts, minds, and souls.

Thank God we have the Bible, or we would not know this!

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

Thank God we have the Bible, or we would not know this!

Agreed!

 

[zeroturbulence]

Scott:
is there salvation outside the OC?
zone.

I believe that there is even though I am a practicing and devout Roman Catholic. I believe that the scriptures promise salvation to anyone who believes in them, but I also believe that the Catholic church is the original church (and the most misunderstood - but I am not going to debate that here).

Jesus told the people that they should follow the instructions of the teachers and the Pharisees even though they do not practice what they preach because they sit in Moses' seat (Matthew 23:1-3). By the same token I believe that our Pope sits in St. Peter's seat, the one who Christ appointed as head of his church.

This is not to say that christians outside the Catholic church are not saved, because as long as they follow the scriptures they are in fact doing what is preached.

 

[Red_Tory]

"The Bible Alone? The true Christian faith is based on the Bible alone.

False.

How could Christianity have existed without the Bible to base its faith on? By this very logic, no writers of the Bible - or indeed anyone living in the first century AD - was a Christian. Certain books weren't even written until almost a hundred years after the birth of Christ.

Take, for example, Paul. He didn't just base his faith on the Bible alone, because he wrote parts of it. So unless someone comes up with some kind of convoluted explanation as to how none of these people were Christians, making the claim that the Bible alone is the basis of faith is inaccurate...

 

[Scotth1960]

False.

How could Christianity have existed without the Bible to base its faith on? By this very logic, no writers of the Bible - or indeed anyone living in the first century AD - was a Christian. Certain books weren't even written until almost a hundred years after the birth of Christ.

Take, for example, Paul. He didn't just base his faith on the Bible alone, because he wrote parts of it. So unless someone comes up with some kind of convoluted explanation as to how none of these people were Christians, making the claim that the Bible alone is the basis of faith is inaccurate...

The true Church existed long before the NT was completed. If Christianity depended on there being a New Testament, the apostles could not have preached. They would have had to wait till someone wrote the NT. No. The apostles preached Jesus Christ before they sat to write down the NT. Dear Red Tory. You are right. True Christianity existed before the NT books were completed. "making the claim that the Bible alone is the basis of faith is inaccurate". Absolutely right!
Christ founded His Church on faith in Him. The NT was written in faith in Christ. The basis of Christianity is faith in God, not faith in the Bible. The Bible comes from faith in God; faith in God doesn't come from the Bible. Of course, the Bible is inspired. But it must be interpreted by the Holy Spirit living in the NT Church.
The Orthodox Church.

 

[zone]

How could Christianity have existed without the Bible to base its faith on? By this very logic, no writers of the Bible - or indeed anyone living in the first century AD - was a Christian. Certain books weren't even written until almost a hundred years after the birth of Christ.

Take, for example, Paul. He didn't just base his faith on the Bible alone, because he wrote parts of it. So unless someone comes up with some kind of convoluted explanation as to how none of these people were Christians, making the claim that the Bible alone is the basis of faith is inaccurate...

the Bible alone FOR US is all we need to receive conviction, repentence, faith and The Holy Spirit.

that's why the first century church had the MIRACULOUS APOSTOLIC GIFTS AND OFFICES: for the infant church.

but even those wonderful gifts of God were partial. those gifts ceased with the canon.
we now have that which is perfect (5046. teleios), Praise You Lord!

5046. teleios​

having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect
​

Original Word: τέλειος, α, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: teleios
Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-i-os)
Short Definition: perfect, full-grown
Definition: perfect, (a) complete in all its parts, (b) full grown, of full age, (c) specially of the completeness of Christian character.

Cognate: 5046 téleios (an adjective, derived from 5056 /télos, "consummated goal") – mature (consummated) from going through the necessary stages to reach the end-goal, i.e. developed into a consummating completion by fulfilling the necessary process (spiritual journey). See 5056 (telos).

[This root (tel-) means "reaching the end (aim)." It is well-illustrated with the old pirate's telescope, unfolding (extending out) one stage at a time to function at full-strength (capacity effectiveness).]

Word Origin
from telos
Definition
having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect
NASB Word Usage
complete (2), mature (4), more perfect (1), perfect (12).

complete, perfect, mature
From telos; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with ho) completeness -- of full age, man, perfect.

 

[zone]

The NT was written in faith in Christ.

the NT was written by the direct inspiration and guidance of The Holy Spirit, and the Apostles were those who had SEEN JESUS CHRIST.

 

[silverwind]

I always have this nagging feeling that the bible in its entirety should be 70 books, not 66.
Since God's number of "completion" or "perfection" is 7, what's with the 66... did some books go missing.... maybe on purpose? Who called the shots?
any thoughts on this, zone?

 

[Scotth1960]

I always have this nagging feeling that the bible in its entirety should be 70 books, not 66.
Since God's number of "completion" or "perfection" is 7, what's with the 66... did some books go missing.... maybe on purpose? Who called the shots?
any thoughts on this, zone?

Actually, the number of books in the Bible should be 76 or 77.

1 1 Ezra (2 Esdras)
2 Tobit
3 Judith
4 1 Maccabees
5 2 Maccabees
6 3 Maccabees
7 Wisdom
8 Sirach
9 Baruch
10 Epistle of Jeremiah

The Council of Laodicea rejected the book of 4 Maccabees as Scripture, but some Orthodox Bibles include 4 Maccabees in an appendix. Not as a part of Scripture, but a book useful for reading (Anagiskomenon).
In the OSB (Orthodox Study Bible), 4 Maccabees is missing, but in the RSV New Oxford Annoted Bible, and the NRSV New Oxford Annotated Bible, 4 Maccabees is included.
Take care.

God bless you. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[silverwind]

Actually, the number of books in the Bible should be 76 or 77.

1 1 Ezra (2 Esdras)
2 Tobit
3 Judith
4 1 Maccabees
5 2 Maccabees
6 3 Maccabees
7 Wisdom
8 Sirach
9 Baruch
10 Epistle of Jeremiah

The Council of Laodicea rejected the book of 4 Maccabees as Scripture, but some Orthodox Bibles include 4 Maccabees in an appendix. Not as a part of Scripture, but a book useful for reading (Anagiskomenon).
In the OSB (Orthodox Study Bible), 4 Maccabees is missing, but in the RSV New Oxford Annoted Bible, and the NRSV New Oxford Annotated Bible, 4 Maccabees is included.
Take care.

God bless you. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

Thanks
I think it would be well worth our time to read what has been missing. It wouldn't hurt anyone

 

[zone]

Actually, the number of books in the Bible should be 76 or 77.

1 1 Ezra (2 Esdras)
2 Tobit
3 Judith
4 1 Maccabees
5 2 Maccabees
6 3 Maccabees
7 Wisdom
8 Sirach
9 Baruch
10 Epistle of Jeremiah

The Council of Laodicea rejected the book of 4 Maccabees as Scripture, but some Orthodox Bibles include 4 Maccabees in an appendix. Not as a part of Scripture, but a book useful for reading (Anagiskomenon).
In the OSB (Orthodox Study Bible), 4 Maccabees is missing, but in the RSV New Oxford Annoted Bible, and the NRSV New Oxford Annotated Bible, 4 Maccabees is included.
Take care.

God bless you. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

Scott: could you cut and paste The OC's Decalogue please? (no hurry). is it different from Rome's?

thanks.

 

[SantoSubito]

Yer man the bibles so important because its god speaking to us, god cant always preform miracles to us so this is what he uses for us to keep in his faith. its a journey with Jesus. sadly some people to my amazement think that you dont need the bible, yes god does preform miracles and help people in different ways, but this is his hand and we have to bath in his wisdom or else we wont be in heaven with him.

But then I'm forced to ask this question. What about the Christians in medieval and Dark Age Europe? Most of them had never even seen or touched a Bible in their lives much less had the opportunity to read it. Assuming of course they were on of the select few who could read at all.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Thanks
I think it would be well worth our time to read what has been missing. It wouldn't hurt anyone

I have read most of them. Although they are GREAT historical readings. There are to many reasons why they are not considered scripture. For one they have things in them which contradict other aspects of scripture. It has the jews doing things like making penance for sin so God will save them, yet no where in the law is this said to be a prerequisite. That is why many do not consider them inspired words of God.

But again. They are great historical readings, especially maccabees. I use it all the time.