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S
Nalu:
2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 verse 15. Keep the traditions of the Apostles, whether in
word or in their writings. Not only in the New Testament writings, but also in the spoken
words of the Apostles. The spoken words of the Apostles are also the Word of God. Not
the Bible alone. The Bible does not say that the Bible alone is the Word of God. Jesus
Christ Himself is the Word of God.
Scott
E
well I will answer both you and Scott on this one, and hopefully he see it also.
What does lev 26 say? For this is Gods covenant with the nation of Israel. What he will do when they disobay and turn from him. and what they must do to be restored.
The following verses show what God says they must do to be restored from punishment for their sin against him.
40 ‘But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me, 41 andthat I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies;if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt— 42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember;I will remember the land. 43 The land also shall be left empty by them, and will enjoy its sabbaths while it lies desolate without them; they will accept their guilt, because they despised My judgments and because their soul abhorred My statutes. 44 Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, nor shall I abhor them, to utterly destroy them and break My covenant with them;
for I am the LORD their God. 45 But for their sake I will remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.’” 46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws which the LORD made between Himself and the children of Israel on Mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.
I see nothing in here about making penance. Or sackloth, or fasting or anything else. All I see is direct commands from God.
1. Confess your iniquities.
2. Confess the iniquity of your fathers.
3. Accept, or admit your guilt.
4. Admit or accept that the reason they are slaves of others is because of punishment for their sin.
If they do this. God will relent his punishment, and restore them, and be their God.
Yet why does Judith and another book in the apocrypha state thet Israel made penance hoping God would save them, and not allow their children to be taken slaves by the enemy. (A punishment for disobaying. as we see in lev 26:
21 ‘Then, if you walk contrary to Me, and are not willing to obey Me, I will bring on you seven times more plagues, according to your sins. 22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, destroy your livestock, and make you few in number;
and your highways shall be desolate.)
Yet in Judtih 4 we see that thes children of Isreal did penance ( a word not even found in the law.)
Judith 4: 9 All the men of Israel cried to God with great fervor and did penance--
And it said God heard their cry and saw their distress. Which is a contradiction to the law given by God in leviticus. Where God said if they were in sin,, all they had to do is confess that sin, and the sin of their fathers. And God will hear their crys. God having a foriegn nation take their kids was a punishment for disbelief. If they were not worshiping idols, or sinning against him by now following him, thery would not even have had to confess their sin. God said if they walked in his statutes and obeyeyd his laws. and did not play the harlot. God in his own words.
3 ‘If you walk in My statutes and keep My commandments, and perform them, 4 then I will give you rain in its season, the land shall yield its produce, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. 5 Your threshing shall last till the time of vintage, and the vintage shall last till the time of sowing;you shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely. 6 I will give peace in the land, and you shall lie down, and none will make you afraid;I will rid the land of evil beasts,and the sword will not go through your land. 7 You will chase your enemies, and they shall fall by the sword before you. 8 Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight;your enemies shall fall by the sword before you. 9 ‘For I will look on you favorably and make you fruitful, multiply you and confirm My covenant with you.
So either way we have a contradiction in Judith.
1. If they were doing what God asked, and walking in his statutes, keeping his commands, and not playing ythe harlot. They would have had nothing to fear. God already promised to spare them..
2. If they were not doing the above. then all they had to do was confess their sin, and God would have spared them.
and this is just one that I have found, there are many!
What does lev 26 say? For this is Gods covenant with the nation of Israel. What he will do when they disobay and turn from him. and what they must do to be restored.
The following verses show what God says they must do to be restored from punishment for their sin against him.
40 ‘But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me, 41 andthat I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies;if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt— 42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember;I will remember the land. 43 The land also shall be left empty by them, and will enjoy its sabbaths while it lies desolate without them; they will accept their guilt, because they despised My judgments and because their soul abhorred My statutes. 44 Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, nor shall I abhor them, to utterly destroy them and break My covenant with them;
for I am the LORD their God. 45 But for their sake I will remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.’” 46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws which the LORD made between Himself and the children of Israel on Mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.
I see nothing in here about making penance. Or sackloth, or fasting or anything else. All I see is direct commands from God.
1. Confess your iniquities.
2. Confess the iniquity of your fathers.
3. Accept, or admit your guilt.
4. Admit or accept that the reason they are slaves of others is because of punishment for their sin.
If they do this. God will relent his punishment, and restore them, and be their God.
Yet why does Judith and another book in the apocrypha state thet Israel made penance hoping God would save them, and not allow their children to be taken slaves by the enemy. (A punishment for disobaying. as we see in lev 26:
21 ‘Then, if you walk contrary to Me, and are not willing to obey Me, I will bring on you seven times more plagues, according to your sins. 22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, destroy your livestock, and make you few in number;
and your highways shall be desolate.)
Yet in Judtih 4 we see that thes children of Isreal did penance ( a word not even found in the law.)
Judith 4: 9 All the men of Israel cried to God with great fervor and did penance--
And it said God heard their cry and saw their distress. Which is a contradiction to the law given by God in leviticus. Where God said if they were in sin,, all they had to do is confess that sin, and the sin of their fathers. And God will hear their crys. God having a foriegn nation take their kids was a punishment for disbelief. If they were not worshiping idols, or sinning against him by now following him, thery would not even have had to confess their sin. God said if they walked in his statutes and obeyeyd his laws. and did not play the harlot. God in his own words.
3 ‘If you walk in My statutes and keep My commandments, and perform them, 4 then I will give you rain in its season, the land shall yield its produce, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. 5 Your threshing shall last till the time of vintage, and the vintage shall last till the time of sowing;you shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely. 6 I will give peace in the land, and you shall lie down, and none will make you afraid;I will rid the land of evil beasts,and the sword will not go through your land. 7 You will chase your enemies, and they shall fall by the sword before you. 8 Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight;your enemies shall fall by the sword before you. 9 ‘For I will look on you favorably and make you fruitful, multiply you and confirm My covenant with you.
So either way we have a contradiction in Judith.
1. If they were doing what God asked, and walking in his statutes, keeping his commands, and not playing ythe harlot. They would have had nothing to fear. God already promised to spare them..
2. If they were not doing the above. then all they had to do was confess their sin, and God would have spared them.
and this is just one that I have found, there are many!
S
Is confessing one's sins all that is required for forgiveness? Isn't repentance also
required? Yes. According to Ezekiel 18. What good does it to continue confessing sins
if one does not repent of them and turn from them? Doesn't that famous verse from 2nd
Chronicles say we must turn from our wicked, wicked ways? Yes. And Ezekiel 18
indicates that a man who sins and does wicked things will be forgiven if he stops sinning
and starts doing good works. Mere confession is not enough. But confession is step one.
Anyone, not one person who speaks against
Tobit
Judith
2 Esdras
Baruch
Letter of Jeremiah
Wisdom
Sirach
1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees
3 Maccabees
has shown these books contradict the Law of God, the Law of Moses.
You keep saying these books are false, but fail to offer any proof.
You should also back up your statement with the Church Fathers. If the Church Fathers
didn't reject these books, then neither should we.
If the Church Fathers were wrong, then the promise of Matthew 16:18 is suspect and
the whole Christian Faith put at jeopardy. There must be a true Christian Church in
history that did not fall into doctrinal error but the rightly discerned and interpreted the
word of truth in the Holy Scriptures of the OT and the NT together. Didn't the Church
settle this question of what books belong in the Bible long ago? Why, then, are we still
debating this issue today if the truth is already out there for us to discover?
required? Yes. According to Ezekiel 18. What good does it to continue confessing sins
if one does not repent of them and turn from them? Doesn't that famous verse from 2nd
Chronicles say we must turn from our wicked, wicked ways? Yes. And Ezekiel 18
indicates that a man who sins and does wicked things will be forgiven if he stops sinning
and starts doing good works. Mere confession is not enough. But confession is step one.
Anyone, not one person who speaks against
Tobit
Judith
2 Esdras
Baruch
Letter of Jeremiah
Wisdom
Sirach
1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees
3 Maccabees
has shown these books contradict the Law of God, the Law of Moses.
You keep saying these books are false, but fail to offer any proof.
You should also back up your statement with the Church Fathers. If the Church Fathers
didn't reject these books, then neither should we.
If the Church Fathers were wrong, then the promise of Matthew 16:18 is suspect and
the whole Christian Faith put at jeopardy. There must be a true Christian Church in
history that did not fall into doctrinal error but the rightly discerned and interpreted the
word of truth in the Holy Scriptures of the OT and the NT together. Didn't the Church
settle this question of what books belong in the Bible long ago? Why, then, are we still
debating this issue today if the truth is already out there for us to discover?
E
1. Funny how you did not show how I erred in leviticus, or even respond to what God said. This alone shows that everything you posted is not worth responding to.
2. Show where God said in lev 26 where anything other than admition of sin is required as per the law of moses. That was the law given to moses, and the law in which ALL Israel was to obey and do.
3. Repent means to "Change ones mind" If your confessing a sin, you are repenting. Your changing your mind and agreeing with God that it is sin.
4. Repent does not mean to do some work which shows you are sorry for your sin. nor is it punishment which one does to make ammend for sin (penance) No where in the law of moses is this required.
5. Listen to men?? Why. it is there private interpretation as you always say. Thanks But I will listen to god. NOT MEN!
2. Show where God said in lev 26 where anything other than admition of sin is required as per the law of moses. That was the law given to moses, and the law in which ALL Israel was to obey and do.
3. Repent means to "Change ones mind" If your confessing a sin, you are repenting. Your changing your mind and agreeing with God that it is sin.
4. Repent does not mean to do some work which shows you are sorry for your sin. nor is it punishment which one does to make ammend for sin (penance) No where in the law of moses is this required.
5. Listen to men?? Why. it is there private interpretation as you always say. Thanks But I will listen to god. NOT MEN!
S
So you say that Leviticus 26 is the sum total of "keeping the law" of God?. I don't think you are saying that. Yes confession is required. Leviticus 26 doesn't say that Leviticus 26 is the whole Law of God, does it? Why are you trying to get the whole doctrine of all the Law in just one section of the Bible? That is selective citing of the Bible, ISTM. And you didn't read Ezekiel 18. Or did you? It takes a long time to read the whole Bible. And we shouldn't rush to judgment, and say, "Hey, I've got it!" The Bible, especially the OT, is hard to understand. Anyway, we are in the NT now, so we wouldn't thing everything that Christ requires of us is in the OT. Christ's new commandement is in the NT: Love one another. Love God. Love all people. Confession is necessary. But don't reduce the whole law to confession of sins. That's not called for.
E
Lev 26 states what will happen to Israel if they follow Gods laws. What will happen if they do not. And if they are not following Gods laws, and being punished because of it. What they must do to be restored.
Why am I using it? Because it is GODS DIRECTIONS AND STATEMENTS ON WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE NATION DOES OR DOES NOT FOLLOW GODS LAW. AND WHAT THEY HAVE TO DO TO BE RESTORED.
Thats good enough for me. And should be good enough for you. But it does not support your doctrine. so I can see why you refuse to see it as written!
Yes I read ez 18. It has nothing to do with God protecting the children of the nation of Israel beczause of Israels sin. Which is what Judith is talking about. Lev 26 does. It shows why God would have an enemy take the children form the jews. And what the jews would have to do to stop this punishment from happening. Ez 18 does not!
Why am I using it? Because it is GODS DIRECTIONS AND STATEMENTS ON WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE NATION DOES OR DOES NOT FOLLOW GODS LAW. AND WHAT THEY HAVE TO DO TO BE RESTORED.
Thats good enough for me. And should be good enough for you. But it does not support your doctrine. so I can see why you refuse to see it as written!
Yes I read ez 18. It has nothing to do with God protecting the children of the nation of Israel beczause of Israels sin. Which is what Judith is talking about. Lev 26 does. It shows why God would have an enemy take the children form the jews. And what the jews would have to do to stop this punishment from happening. Ez 18 does not!
S
You forgot one thing that comes earlier in that same book. In Leviticus 5:5-6 we read after a litany of sins, “…whoever is guilty in any of these cases shall confess the sin he has incurred, and as his sin offering for the sin he has committed he shall bring to the Lord a female animal from the flock…The priest shall then make atonement for his sin.” There must be a confession of sin, penance of sacrifice, and the involvement of a priest. We also read in Numbers 5:5-7, “The Lord said to Moses, ‘Tell the Israelites: If a man [or woman] commits a fault against his fellow man and wrongs him, thus breaking faith with the Lord, he shall confess the wrong he has done, restore his ill-gotten goods in full, and in addition give one fifth of their value to the one he has wronged.” There must be a confession and restitution shall be made as a form of penance. Also in Leviticus 19:21-22 we read [21] And for his trespass he shall offer a ram to the Lord, at the door of the tabernacle of the testimony: [22] And the priest shall pray for him and for his sin before the Lord, and he shall have mercy on him, and the sin shall be forgiven. Some more verses dealing with the same thing are Leviticus 12:6-8, Leviticus 14:11, Leviticus 14:19-20, and Leviticus 14:31.
I'll quote Numbers 15:22-25 in full because it deals with what the Israelites are to do when they sin as a group.
We see here that when Israel as a whole sinned they must confess their sins (as mentioned in previous verses) and offer a sacrifice as penance so that they might be cleansed. Your interpretation of Leviticus is misguided for two reasons. First, you're interpreting one passage in Leviticus in absence of the rest of the book and in particular earlier passages in that same book. Secondly, you're applying a passage whose purpose appears to be to show the mercy and steadfastness of God and applying it as the method by which Israel is to repent in absence of any support from previous passages in the same book.
Also a few verses from the Prophets for you to consider:
I'll quote Numbers 15:22-25 in full because it deals with what the Israelites are to do when they sin as a group.
We see here that when Israel as a whole sinned they must confess their sins (as mentioned in previous verses) and offer a sacrifice as penance so that they might be cleansed. Your interpretation of Leviticus is misguided for two reasons. First, you're interpreting one passage in Leviticus in absence of the rest of the book and in particular earlier passages in that same book. Secondly, you're applying a passage whose purpose appears to be to show the mercy and steadfastness of God and applying it as the method by which Israel is to repent in absence of any support from previous passages in the same book.
Also a few verses from the Prophets for you to consider:
S
The NT tells us not to bother about endless genealogies, and disputes regarding the Law.
Do you not believe we are in the NT (New Testament), and not under the Law of the OT?
The OT says anyone is under a curse who does not keep the whole law. But the Law has been fulfilled in Christ, so we retain what Christ retains. Christ preaches the 10 commandments. Well, 9 of the ten. The Sabbath was for the Jews only. But we are not under the Law. Forgiveness of sins comes from faith in Christ now. And repentance, baptism, confession of sins to God and to the Church (James). Take care.
The NT is good enough for us. That should be enough for you. Be careful that your reading of the OT does not Judaize you. The 10 commandments still apply, but every detail of the law is fulfilled in the blood of Christ. We are not to keep the OT sacrifices, are we? Or the OT dietary laws, or enforce circumcision. You should read Galatians if you want the NT perspective on the Law. Yes, we must still keep the OT law, but only as it is rightly interpreted by the HS in the NT. Some OT laws no longer apply to us as Christians. Such as diet, circumcision, temple sacrifices.
Do you not believe we are in the NT (New Testament), and not under the Law of the OT?
The OT says anyone is under a curse who does not keep the whole law. But the Law has been fulfilled in Christ, so we retain what Christ retains. Christ preaches the 10 commandments. Well, 9 of the ten. The Sabbath was for the Jews only. But we are not under the Law. Forgiveness of sins comes from faith in Christ now. And repentance, baptism, confession of sins to God and to the Church (James). Take care.
The NT is good enough for us. That should be enough for you. Be careful that your reading of the OT does not Judaize you. The 10 commandments still apply, but every detail of the law is fulfilled in the blood of Christ. We are not to keep the OT sacrifices, are we? Or the OT dietary laws, or enforce circumcision. You should read Galatians if you want the NT perspective on the Law. Yes, we must still keep the OT law, but only as it is rightly interpreted by the HS in the NT. Some OT laws no longer apply to us as Christians. Such as diet, circumcision, temple sacrifices.
S
Dear eternally gratefull,
Here is Leviticus 26:3-5, etc. OSB (Orthodox Study Bible): "If you walk in My ordinances
and keep My commandments, and do them, then I will give you rain in its season, the land
shall yield its produce, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. Your threshing shall
last till the time of vintage, and the vintage shall last till the time of sowing; and you shall
eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely. ....." (and etc. v. 6, "War shall
not pass through your land, and I will give peace in the land; and you shall lie down, and
none will make you afraid; and I will utterly destroy the bad wild animals from the land. ..."
Comment on Leviticus 26:3 The Law of Moses could only promise pertaining to the
comforts of this present life. But the Law of Christ promises in the midst of sufferings on
His behalf the blessings of eternal life in the kingdom of God (St. John Cassian)."
How much better this is than misinterpreting the OT Law. We are not under the Law;
we are set free by the blood of Christ, whose blood alone frees us from our sins: His
righteousness is imputed to us because we have faith in Him. We are saved by faith, not
by the "works of the law" (Romans 3:28). In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
PS See OSB, page 157.
Here is Leviticus 26:3-5, etc. OSB (Orthodox Study Bible): "If you walk in My ordinances
and keep My commandments, and do them, then I will give you rain in its season, the land
shall yield its produce, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. Your threshing shall
last till the time of vintage, and the vintage shall last till the time of sowing; and you shall
eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely. ....." (and etc. v. 6, "War shall
not pass through your land, and I will give peace in the land; and you shall lie down, and
none will make you afraid; and I will utterly destroy the bad wild animals from the land. ..."
Comment on Leviticus 26:3 The Law of Moses could only promise pertaining to the
comforts of this present life. But the Law of Christ promises in the midst of sufferings on
His behalf the blessings of eternal life in the kingdom of God (St. John Cassian)."
How much better this is than misinterpreting the OT Law. We are not under the Law;
we are set free by the blood of Christ, whose blood alone frees us from our sins: His
righteousness is imputed to us because we have faith in Him. We are saved by faith, not
by the "works of the law" (Romans 3:28). In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
PS See OSB, page 157.
E
if you look in the verses above I highlighted you see a pattern. This pattern was as to the law for personal sin. We are also shown of a yearly sacrifice in which the high priest makes atonement for the sin of the nation.
However their is a few things about this I do not think you realise.
1. The penalty, or if you wish to call it penance, was made by an innocent who had done no wrong, and was without spot or blemish.
2. The book of hebrews states this sacrifice done by a priest NEVER took away sin. but was a shadow of things to come.
1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
Notice here. Those sacrifices you showed did not take sin away. They could never take sin away!
8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them ” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.”[b] He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
In the OT, A sacrifice had to be made for all sin. Continually. Because everyone still sinned. But in the NT Jesus sacrificed himself once, that the penalty of ALL sin is taken care of.
11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
Notice here an important thing. Christ in his one death has PERFECTED THOSE who are BEING SANCTIFIED. In other words, they are not perfect yet here on earth, they are still being sanctified. But in Gods eyes, they have been perfected (another term used is Justified, or declared innocent, even though they still sin)
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,”[c] 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”[d] 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.
This is the new covenant. God said he will remember our sin no more. There is no longer an offering or payment for sin (penance) because Christ in his death made the ultimate sacrifice for all sin. Thats why the sacrifice ended. So why should we add other sacrifice and make retribution for our own sin (penance) when the penalty has already been paid in full by Christ on the cross??
19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
We no longer need priests to sacrifice for us. Christ made the ultimate sacrifice. As with the law. Going to a human priest and hoping your sins are cleansed one can have no assurance. Because you have to continue going. But if our faith is in Christ. we have a full assurance our sins have been paid for. And our hearts and bodies have been cleansed with a pure water (Holy Spirit) As paul said. We have not been given a spirit of fear. But a father in heaven who loves us.
Again I refer you to Hebrews 10. It answers these questions. Remember, This is not penance. It is an innocent who sacrifices his life for YOUR SIN>
Actually it is your misunderstanding as to what the animal sacrifice representred. And the refusal to acknowledge that it is not a penance on our part. But a sacrifice of an innocent. which as scripture said could NEvER TAKE AWAY SIN. as to why you can not understand where I am coming from.
We always should do this. This helps bring us back to thinking about God and making God our priority, as we do not think of the things of this word. But doing these things do not help remove sin. Or have a part in it. It is the one sacrifice only which removes sin. All the rest are things we do to focus on God.
The word used their in not penance. It is repent. Repent is to change ones mind. It is not penance. God did not make penance he made man. He repented. That is why he flooded the earth. The same hebrew word is used in both passages.
21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
turn from is way different than penance.
Same word.
30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord GOD. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin.
Repent is a heart attitude. Not doing things in order to make ammends for sin!
However their is a few things about this I do not think you realise.
1. The penalty, or if you wish to call it penance, was made by an innocent who had done no wrong, and was without spot or blemish.
2. The book of hebrews states this sacrifice done by a priest NEVER took away sin. but was a shadow of things to come.
1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
Notice here. Those sacrifices you showed did not take sin away. They could never take sin away!
8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them ” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.”[b] He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
In the OT, A sacrifice had to be made for all sin. Continually. Because everyone still sinned. But in the NT Jesus sacrificed himself once, that the penalty of ALL sin is taken care of.
11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
Notice here an important thing. Christ in his one death has PERFECTED THOSE who are BEING SANCTIFIED. In other words, they are not perfect yet here on earth, they are still being sanctified. But in Gods eyes, they have been perfected (another term used is Justified, or declared innocent, even though they still sin)
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,”[c] 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”[d] 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.
This is the new covenant. God said he will remember our sin no more. There is no longer an offering or payment for sin (penance) because Christ in his death made the ultimate sacrifice for all sin. Thats why the sacrifice ended. So why should we add other sacrifice and make retribution for our own sin (penance) when the penalty has already been paid in full by Christ on the cross??
19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
We no longer need priests to sacrifice for us. Christ made the ultimate sacrifice. As with the law. Going to a human priest and hoping your sins are cleansed one can have no assurance. Because you have to continue going. But if our faith is in Christ. we have a full assurance our sins have been paid for. And our hearts and bodies have been cleansed with a pure water (Holy Spirit) As paul said. We have not been given a spirit of fear. But a father in heaven who loves us.
Again I refer you to Hebrews 10. It answers these questions. Remember, This is not penance. It is an innocent who sacrifices his life for YOUR SIN>
Actually it is your misunderstanding as to what the animal sacrifice representred. And the refusal to acknowledge that it is not a penance on our part. But a sacrifice of an innocent. which as scripture said could NEvER TAKE AWAY SIN. as to why you can not understand where I am coming from.
We always should do this. This helps bring us back to thinking about God and making God our priority, as we do not think of the things of this word. But doing these things do not help remove sin. Or have a part in it. It is the one sacrifice only which removes sin. All the rest are things we do to focus on God.
The word used their in not penance. It is repent. Repent is to change ones mind. It is not penance. God did not make penance he made man. He repented. That is why he flooded the earth. The same hebrew word is used in both passages.
21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
turn from is way different than penance.
Same word.
30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord GOD. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin.
Repent is a heart attitude. Not doing things in order to make ammends for sin!
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Dear judgedebra, The Bible itself also does not say the true Church would be found by reforming the Catholic Church in Germany and in France/Switzerland, Scotland, England, etc. The Bible itself does not say all we need to know will be found in the Bible itself. Instead, the Bible itself points to spoken traditions of the Apostles, which are preserved only in the one holy catholic and apostolic church, the Orthodox Church.
In Erie Scott Harrington
In Erie Scott Harrington
S
Number two is irrelevant to the point of penance because the penance itself does not take away sin. Number one on the other hand can be seen in two ways. First is the prefigured vision of Christ's sacrifice that you have put forth, and the second is that by either bringing a lamb from his own flock or purchasing one the person has shown that he sincerely wishes to be forgiven for his sins because he is willing to take a financial loss to offer a sacrifice to God. Both views are easily seen in the passages.
Nor did I say it was the sacrifices themselves that take away sin. The sacrifices are what God required in order for him to pardon them of their sins. If a person was not willing to expend the resources to offer sacrifice for his sins then was he ever truly remorseful about his actions to begin with?
Technically everyone still sins to this day, but I actually have no argument with what you said here.
This doesn't directly relate to the subject of penance. But what we disagree upon here is whether or not a person can lose their justified state and how.
Your attacking an idea of penance that is not presented in the passage or in the RCC. Penance is not a payment for our sins; it is physical or spiritual action that a person does in order to show that they are truly remorseful for their sins. If you decide to pray for longer than usual after you've sinned, then guess what you're doing? Penance.
I know where you're planning on taking this so I'll address it in advance. The Mass is not a continual re-sacrificing of Christ; it is a representation of the same sacrifice that occurred at Calvary.
Actually I think the problem is you see only one possible interpretation of those verses. While I see multiple equally valid interpretations of the same verse.
True this is not penance in the way you see it, but in the way I and the Catholic Church views penance it is. As for the last part it is not the penance that removes sin. Penance is like the medicine God prescribes after he has cured our illness to help us not fall ill again.
The translation I used was the Douay-Rheims which was translated from St. Jerome's Latin Vulgate. The word in the Latin is "Pœnitentiam" or "Paenitentiam" if you prefer to not have the symbol for ae in there. Anyway, the meaning for the Latin word is also "repent", but the meaning of the Latin is better translated by a phrase "to show sorrow" or "to show remorse." Which is exactly the meaning of penance; even the word penance is derived from "Pœnitentiam"
Repent in modern Christianity has taken on a watered down meaning, when in reality it means so much more than a simple change of mind. Repenting is turning from your sins, doing good, and pursuing the path of righteousness in lieu of your old ways
Neither is penance doing things in order to make amends for sin. Like I said before penance is not like serving out a jail sentence for your crime, it's like medicine to help heal the wounds of the soul. Sadly Protestants have inherited the tradition of viewing God's attitude toward sin in a strictly legal sense. Instead of viewing it more as a doctor patient relationship. This is one area in which western Christian scholars can learn a lot from eastern Christian scholars.
Nor did I say it was the sacrifices themselves that take away sin. The sacrifices are what God required in order for him to pardon them of their sins. If a person was not willing to expend the resources to offer sacrifice for his sins then was he ever truly remorseful about his actions to begin with?
Technically everyone still sins to this day, but I actually have no argument with what you said here.
This doesn't directly relate to the subject of penance. But what we disagree upon here is whether or not a person can lose their justified state and how.
Your attacking an idea of penance that is not presented in the passage or in the RCC. Penance is not a payment for our sins; it is physical or spiritual action that a person does in order to show that they are truly remorseful for their sins. If you decide to pray for longer than usual after you've sinned, then guess what you're doing? Penance.
I know where you're planning on taking this so I'll address it in advance. The Mass is not a continual re-sacrificing of Christ; it is a representation of the same sacrifice that occurred at Calvary.
Actually I think the problem is you see only one possible interpretation of those verses. While I see multiple equally valid interpretations of the same verse.
True this is not penance in the way you see it, but in the way I and the Catholic Church views penance it is. As for the last part it is not the penance that removes sin. Penance is like the medicine God prescribes after he has cured our illness to help us not fall ill again.
The translation I used was the Douay-Rheims which was translated from St. Jerome's Latin Vulgate. The word in the Latin is "Pœnitentiam" or "Paenitentiam" if you prefer to not have the symbol for ae in there. Anyway, the meaning for the Latin word is also "repent", but the meaning of the Latin is better translated by a phrase "to show sorrow" or "to show remorse." Which is exactly the meaning of penance; even the word penance is derived from "Pœnitentiam"
Repent in modern Christianity has taken on a watered down meaning, when in reality it means so much more than a simple change of mind. Repenting is turning from your sins, doing good, and pursuing the path of righteousness in lieu of your old ways
Neither is penance doing things in order to make amends for sin. Like I said before penance is not like serving out a jail sentence for your crime, it's like medicine to help heal the wounds of the soul. Sadly Protestants have inherited the tradition of viewing God's attitude toward sin in a strictly legal sense. Instead of viewing it more as a doctor patient relationship. This is one area in which western Christian scholars can learn a lot from eastern Christian scholars.
S
It is true that the Bible is God's Word. How, then, can the same Bible, which is God's word, lead to so many contradictory, different views of what the Bible says. Obviously, the fault is not with the Bible. The fault is in believing that merely having the Bible guarantees we will have the right interpretation of every last verse of the whole of the Scriptures. Without Tradition, the living voice of the Holy Spirit in the Church, people come up with many differing views of what Christian tradition is. We need to find the original Apostolic Tradition, and go by that, or we will not understand the "Bible alone." The Bible alone doesn't give anyone the true meaning of the Bible alone. It requires a Holy Spirit filled, inspired interpreter or interpreters.
Which people rightly understand the Bible? Where on earth are they all?
Which people rightly understand the Bible? Where on earth are they all?
E
So tell me. What financial loss does one take when they go to the throne of grace and recieve the sacrifice of the high priest himself? Your joking right? If financial loss was a requirement then Jesus sacrifice is useless. because no one suffers any kind of loss!!Jesus is said to fulfill the law. he must have forgotten to fulfill this requirement.
The point made was that all sin was forgiven when Christ gave the sacrifice. God just looked over the sin until this time, this is what scripture teaches. the law was a symbol. it pointed to christ. the problem is most jews did not get it. Unfortunately most who call themselves christians do not either. they are still trying to incorporate tradition and works in order to earn Gods grace. Not everyone who gave a sacrifice in OT law was saved. because their attitude was not right. The high priest who had Jesus crucified entered the most holy to give the anual redemptive sacrifice. do you think he was saved?
If one is justified, how can they lose it. If one is given eternal life. How can this life not be eternal in nature. If salvation is noot based on works of righteousness which we have done, but on the grace of God, how can we be saved, or "perfect" our salvation by doing works of righteousness, or lose it by lack of these said works?
Unless God lied. We can not lose salvation because we did not earn it. We did not get it by earning it in the first place. How can anyone say we have to earn it to keep it. That makes it a gospel of works not grace.
So if I don't do penance. My sin still remains and I am not forgiven?
Well thats funny. It was not even what I was thinking of. My point was that the sacrifice which could take away sin was given. so there is no need for further sacrifice. Which would include any act of penance.
This is the problem with being taught what others believed, and being programed how to respond. You assume they mean one thing when it did not even cross their mind.
So God saying that animal sacrifice could never remove sin could mean something else? Wow please tell..
Again I ask. if one does not do penance. Can that sin be forgiven. It was obvious in judith that the people of Israel did penance hoping God would spare them. God would not spare them unless he forgave their sin.
Well thats good, But God had the OT written in Hebrew. Not latin. Trying to translate from one language to another, then another from the translated copy leads to possibly even more errors. It would be like me trying to translate a spanish book into french. Then taking the french translating and converting it to english. All the errors made in the french translation would be even more compounded in the english translation.
So when God repented that he made man, It means God turned from his sin, did good, and pursued a path of righteousness in lieu of his old way?
The hebrew word for repent does not mean what you said. It means to have a chance of mind, or a change of heart. If I changed my mind about doing something, I repented.
again I ask. If I do not do penance for a sin, can I be forgiven of that sin. I have spoken to many catholics on this issue. iether they are wrong, or you are.. which is it?
The point made was that all sin was forgiven when Christ gave the sacrifice. God just looked over the sin until this time, this is what scripture teaches. the law was a symbol. it pointed to christ. the problem is most jews did not get it. Unfortunately most who call themselves christians do not either. they are still trying to incorporate tradition and works in order to earn Gods grace. Not everyone who gave a sacrifice in OT law was saved. because their attitude was not right. The high priest who had Jesus crucified entered the most holy to give the anual redemptive sacrifice. do you think he was saved?
If one is justified, how can they lose it. If one is given eternal life. How can this life not be eternal in nature. If salvation is noot based on works of righteousness which we have done, but on the grace of God, how can we be saved, or "perfect" our salvation by doing works of righteousness, or lose it by lack of these said works?
Unless God lied. We can not lose salvation because we did not earn it. We did not get it by earning it in the first place. How can anyone say we have to earn it to keep it. That makes it a gospel of works not grace.
So if I don't do penance. My sin still remains and I am not forgiven?
Well thats funny. It was not even what I was thinking of. My point was that the sacrifice which could take away sin was given. so there is no need for further sacrifice. Which would include any act of penance.
This is the problem with being taught what others believed, and being programed how to respond. You assume they mean one thing when it did not even cross their mind.
So God saying that animal sacrifice could never remove sin could mean something else? Wow please tell..
Again I ask. if one does not do penance. Can that sin be forgiven. It was obvious in judith that the people of Israel did penance hoping God would spare them. God would not spare them unless he forgave their sin.
Well thats good, But God had the OT written in Hebrew. Not latin. Trying to translate from one language to another, then another from the translated copy leads to possibly even more errors. It would be like me trying to translate a spanish book into french. Then taking the french translating and converting it to english. All the errors made in the french translation would be even more compounded in the english translation.
So when God repented that he made man, It means God turned from his sin, did good, and pursued a path of righteousness in lieu of his old way?
The hebrew word for repent does not mean what you said. It means to have a chance of mind, or a change of heart. If I changed my mind about doing something, I repented.
again I ask. If I do not do penance for a sin, can I be forgiven of that sin. I have spoken to many catholics on this issue. iether they are wrong, or you are.. which is it?
Hi Zone,
Upon reading your post, My mind went straight to Luke and his Apostleship or lack of same. I don't know whether or not Luke had ever seen Jesus. Among my Google searches, I've come up with:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Was_luke_an_apostle#ixzz1MROF238B
Searches that I've made (similar to the above) suggest that Luke was a follower of Jesus Christ and considered by some authorities as not an Apostle. He accompanied Paul on a number of his missionary journeys and also wrote the books of Luke and Acts. Biblical historians agree that he was a Greek physician and probably the most educated of all the NT writers.
Zone, I'm not trying to intiate a debate on the matter (ie - was Luke an Apostle and/or did he ever see Jesus). I just don't know.
Maybe some of our CC readers can throw some light on the subject.
Upon reading your post, My mind went straight to Luke and his Apostleship or lack of same. I don't know whether or not Luke had ever seen Jesus. Among my Google searches, I've come up with:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Was_luke_an_apostle#ixzz1MROF238B
Searches that I've made (similar to the above) suggest that Luke was a follower of Jesus Christ and considered by some authorities as not an Apostle. He accompanied Paul on a number of his missionary journeys and also wrote the books of Luke and Acts. Biblical historians agree that he was a Greek physician and probably the most educated of all the NT writers.
Zone, I'm not trying to intiate a debate on the matter (ie - was Luke an Apostle and/or did he ever see Jesus). I just don't know.
Maybe some of our CC readers can throw some light on the subject.
