A Woman's Role in the Church

[Elizabeth619]

Genesis 2:7
Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
Verse 18
. The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."
Verses 20-22
But for Adam no suitable helper was found. 21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

Woman are part of God's creation. We are here for a purpose. Genesis tells us we are to be a help meat for man. Does this mean we are less than man? NO!
As you study the Old Testament you will read about women in the bible. Sarah, Rebekah, Leah, Rachel, Miriam, Deborah, Abigail, Ruth, Esther, and other noble women. These women showed faith, courage and strength. If a woman was week these women didn't show that!

　
In order to appreciate the role of New Testament womanhood, one must, by way of contrast, consider the plight of ancient woman as she stood in the world in general
In the antique Greek world, women were considered inferior to men. Aristotle viewed women as somewhere between slaves and freemen. Wives led lives of seclusion and practical slavery.
In Rome women enjoyed greater practical freedom, though not legal, than in Greece, but licentiousness was rampant. Chastity and modesty among women were virtually unknown (note Paul’s reference to female homosexuality in Romans 1:26). Wives were truly second-class persons; more honor was shown to a man’s mistress than to his wife.
Though the Jewish opinion of womanhood during the time of Christ needed considerable improvement—a male’s morning prayer expressed thanks to God that the petitioner was neither a Gentile, a slave, or a woman—such attitudes were the result of heathen influences.
While women were somewhat legally inferior under the law of Moses, practically speaking, wives and mothers in Israel enjoyed the greatest of dignity. Mothers were to be honored (Exodus 20:12) and to rebel against, or show disrespect for, one’s mother was a most serious offense which could be punished by death (Deuteronomy 21:18ff; 27:16).
If it be objected that the Old Testament practice of polygamy, along with its ease of divorce for men, placed women in an unfavorable status, it may be replied that such matters were tolerated in that "moonlight" dispensation due to the "hardness" of Israel’s hearts (Matthew 19:8), and were to be abolished with the introduction of the "better" system.
　
Womanhood in the New Testament
The very first chapter of the New Testament portends the status to be accorded women under the law of Christ; there, four women are alluded to in the legal ancestral catalog of the Lord. Though the practice of mentioning women in such lists was not wholly unknown, it is, in the words of A. B. Bruce, "unusual from a genealogical point of view" (1956, 62).

Paul affirmed that "God sent forth his Son, born of a woman" (Galatians 4:4). The birth of Jesus to the virgin Mary was the turning point in human history for women.
Jesus openly defied the attitudes of his day in his frequent dealings with women. He conversed with the woman at Jacob’s well (a Samaritan at that!)—a thing that shocked even the disciples (John 4:27). He refused to bend to Pharisaical pressures that he shun the sinful woman who anointed and kissed his holy feet (Luke 7:36ff). Godly women were numbered among those who ministered to the Christ (Luke 8:3), some of them accompanying him even to the foot of the cross (John 19:25).

Men and Women Are Both Subject to Christ’s Marriage Law
Under the law of Christ, both male and female are equally obligated to the marriage ordinance; neither husband nor wife should depart from the other (1 Corinthians 7:11). But should a husband (as in the case of an unbeliever) leave his wife, she is not bound (as a slave) (Arndt and Gingrich 1957, 205) to follow the deserter (1 Corinthians 7:15). And in the case of marital infidelity, the woman is granted the equal privilege of divorce and remarriage (cf. Matthew 19:9; Mark 10:11, 12).
Men and Women Are Dependent upon Each Other
Inspiration clearly stresses the mutual dependence of men and women in Christ. Paul says, "Nevertheless, neither is the woman without the man, nor the man without the woman in the Lord" (1 Corinthians 11:11). Neither is complete without the other.
Men and Women Equal in Salvation
In the matter of salvation, both stand on equal footing before God. Paul says concerning those who have obeyed the gospel: "[T]here can be no male and female; for ye all are one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28). Though, as Professor Colin Brown observes:
Galatians 3:28 is certainly in harmony with 1 Peter 3:7 which makes it clear that women are "joint-heirs of the grace of life."
Women Rule the Household
The New Testament authorizes woman a domain of authority within the home. Younger widows are advised to marry, bear children, and "rule the household" (1 Timothy 5:14).

"To rule the house" means as the wife and mother in the home, to manage the household affairs. This is the domain and province of woman, in which no man can compete with her. Its greatness and its importance should ever be held up as woman’s divinely intended sphere, in which all her womanly qualities and gifts find full play and happiest gratification"

This does not indicate, of course, that woman’s authority in the home equals the man’s. He is the head of the wife and she is to be willingly in subjection to him (Ephesians 5:22, 23). Yet, he should lovingly allow her the freedom to exercise authority in the management of domestic matters, for God has ordained it.
A historian has noted:
The way in which the Church began to lift woman up into privilege and hope was one of its most prompt and beautiful transformations from the blight of paganism. Too long in the darkness, she was now helped into the sunlight (Hurst 1897, 146).
Such a transformation impressed even the heathen world; Libanius, a pagan writer, exclaimed: "What women these Christians have!"

The Divine Subordination of Woman
By divine design, man is to be the "head" of woman—in society, in the church, and in the home (1 Corinthians 11:3; Ephesians 5:22-24). This graduation of authority rests on two bases: first, the original constitution of the sexes as created, and, second, woman’s role in the fall.
Concerning the former, the Bible teaches:
Woman was made as a help for man—not the reverse (Genesis 2:18, 20).
Paul wrote: "For the man is not of the woman, but the woman of the man: for neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man" (1 Corinthians 11:8, 9).
And again, "For Adam was first formed, then Eve" (1 Timothy 2:13).
As to the woman’s role in the fall, she believed Satan’s lie that she might become as God, and hence, was "beguiled" (Genesis 3:13; 2 Corinthians 11:3) or "deceived" (1 Timothy 2:14); whereas Adam, laboring under no such deception (1 Timothy 2:14), merely sinned due to his weakness for the woman (Genesis 3:12). Accordingly, woman’s subjection was increased after her fall (Genesis 3:16).
These facts do not suggest that woman is inferior to man, but they do mean (to those who respect the testimony of Scripture) that she is subordinate in rank to man. It ought to be emphasized that as Christ’s subjection to the Father involved no deprivation of dignity (Philippians 2:5-11), so there is none in woman’s subjection to man. So, as we shall presently observe, because of these historical facts, the sphere of woman’s activity has been divinely circumscribed.

Women’s "Lib" or the Word of God?
As the saying goes, "From Adam’s rib to Women’s Lib, you’ve come a long way, baby." Indeed! Some have gone a considerable distance from the word of God!
Every significant movement within society will eventually, to some degree, make itself felt in the church. The phenomenon of "women’s liberation" is no exception. There are those in the church who are clamoring that women must throw off the yoke of male domination and claim their rightful place in the body of Christ. Some are suggesting that women can be elders, preachers, and leaders in public worship.
There have been two basic approaches to this problem: Some have adopted a completely infidelic stance by asserting that certain "troubling passages" in the New Testament are merely the result of Pharisaic and Rabbinic prejudices reflecting the backward ignorances of the first century, and so, such are not authoritative for today’s church. Others, attempting to assume a more conservative position, claim there is Biblical support for feminine equality in leadership roles.
It is, however, the burden of this presentation to show there is no scriptural authority for women elders, women preachers, or women worship leaders.
First, it should hardly be necessary to labor over the point that no woman is authorized to serve as an elder, the Bible being so obvious on the matter. The elder is to be the "husband [Greek, aner—a male as opposed to a woman; Arndt and Gingrich, 65) of one wife" (Titus 1:6; 1 Timothy 3:2). The "elder women" (presbuteras) of 1 Timothy 5:2 (cf. Titus 2:3) are simply older women in contrast to the younger (neoterous), and not church leaders.
Secondly, the New Testament does not authorize a female (public preaching) ministry; but rather positively prohibits such. Perhaps the most effective way to approach this matter is to examine some of the currently circulated arguments in support of women preachers:

New Testament women prophesied (Acts 2:18; 21:9; 1 Corinthians 11:5).
It is assumed that prophesying was preaching, hence, women of the first century preached. The word "prophesy" is from two Greek roots, pro (forth) and phemi (to speak). It is a very general term and may mean "to teach, refute, reprove, admonish, comfort" (Thayer 1958, 553; cf. 1 Corinthians 14:3). It can simply suggest the idea of "giving thanks and praising God" (1 Chronicles 25:3). The meaning of the word in a given situation must be determined by the context as well as other information in the Scriptures.
Paul limits the extent of a woman’s forth-speaking (teaching, etc.) when he writes: "I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness" (1 Timothy 2:12). The negative conjunction ,oude (nor), here is explanatory in force, revealing that the kind of teaching prohibited by the apostle is that which assumes dominion over the man (Lenski, 563).
Certainly women may teach (cf. Titus 2:3); they may, in certain ways, even teach men. There is a reciprocal teaching in singing (Colossians 3:16), and privately, in conjunction with her husband, Priscilla was involved in teaching Apollos (Acts 18:26). But a woman may not assume the position of teacher, with the man subordinated to the role of student, without violating a New Testament command.

Was Phoebe a "Deaconess"?
On the basis of Romans 16:1-2, some have contended that:
Phoebe was a church official (deacon);
the church was to "assist her," implying her authority over the church;
she had been a "helper" (prostatis) of many, implying "authority, discipline, over-seeing."
All of this is alleged to show that Phoebe was a preacher-leader in the early church.
However:
The word diakonos simply means a "servant" (Matthew 23:11; John 2:5, etc.), and any official attachment to the term must be demanded by the context, as in Philippians 1:1 and 1 Timothy 3:8.
The fact that the saints were encouraged to "assist" Phoebe did not imply her authority over them. The Greek word paristerni meant to "come to the aid of, help, stand by" (Arndt and Gingrich, 633). When Paul said, "[T]he Lord stood by pareste me" (2 Timothy 4:17), he certainly was not asserting that he exercised authority over Christ!
The word prostatis (helper) does not necessitate oversight. If so, then Phoebe exercised authority over Paul, for she had been his helper as well as others! Though it is found only here in the New Testament, the term, which can connote simply rendering assistance, is used in a third-century B.C. letter from a son to his father (the verbal form): "[T]here will be nothing of more importance for me than to look after you for the remainder of life, in a manner worthy of you, and worthy of me" (Moulton and Milligan 1963, 551).
Euodia and Syntyche
In Philippians 4:2-3, Paul comments that Euodia and Syntyche "labored" with him in the gospel; he calls them, along with others, his "fellow-workers." Again, the assumption is made that this necessitates an authoritarian position comparable to the apostle’s. However, Christians are said to be "God’s fellow-workers" (1 Corinthians 3:9); obviously, this does not suggest that we are authorized to act as deity! Countless Christian ladies have assisted gospel preachers in numerous ways without ever having become public preachers themselves.

Junia an Apostle?
It is said that Junia (KJV), a woman, was an apostle and thus certainly occupied a place of authority in the primitive church (Romans 16:7).
In the first place, in the Greek text the name is Junian (in the accusative case—the gender of the name not being evident); it could either be Junia (feminine), or more likely, Junias (masculine). Origen, a writer of the third century A.D., considered it a reference to a man (Lightfoot 1957, 96).
But secondly, it is not even certain that Junias is here identified as an "apostle." The phrase, "of note among the apostles" (ASV), is rendered by Zahn as "famed, mentioned with honor in the circle of the apostles," (418) giving the sense of being well—known by the apostles, rather than actually being an apostle.
In the third place, the word "apostle" is used occasionally in the Bible in a nontechnical sense to denote a messenger. Jesus says that "one sent" (apostolos) is not greater than the sender (John 13:16). The word need not imply one who has dominion over another, nor even a preacher.


Is 1 Corinthians 14:33 Applicable Today?
Perhaps a further comment regarding 1 Corinthians 14:33 is in order. May this context be used to oppose women preachers?
One view contends that it may not. It is alleged that contextual considerations indicate that the meeting contemplated in 1 Corinthians 14 is not comparable to any convened in the church today, and so, these verses are not applicable to church assemblies of today (Woods 1976, 106-112).
A more reasonable view that also recognizes that 1 Corinthians 14 has to do primarily with a unique first-century situation, i.e., the reception of spiritual gifts, sees Paul here enunciating essentially the same principle as set forth in 1 Timothy 2:12ff.
　
　

[Elizabeth619]

I'm sure that some think I should have put this in the Ladies forum's and I KNOW this thread has been done before....but I wanted to see what the man have to say about it.

[DinoDillinger]

Originally Posted by Elizabeth619

I'm sure that some think I should have put this in the Ladies forum's and I KNOW this thread has been done before....but I wanted to see what the man have to say about it.

I thought it was pretty indepth and well done, why didn't you include the common justification given for women's leadership of culture influencing the bible. For example (if you deny that reasoning), someone might come back with "well scripture says that women should wear a head covering, if you believe in male headship being appliciable for today, why don't you wear a head scarve?"

[Crazy4GODword]

"It will come about after this
That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and daughters will prophesy,
Your old men will dream dreams,
Your young men will see visions. (Joel 2:28 NASB)

Doesn't matter what gender. once we be with Jesus I think their will not even be a gender. But women did changed the world. Even made from a man a women is equally great. Its the heart.

[Elizabeth619]

Originally Posted by DinoDillinger

I thought it was pretty indepth and well done, why didn't you include the common justification given for women's leadership of culture influencing the bible. For example (if you deny that reasoning), someone might come back with "well scripture says that women should wear a head covering, if you believe in male headship being appliciable for today, why don't you wear a head scarve?"

Good idea!!!!! I will work on that now....

And to answer your question... Most of this is NOT my words. It came from a website. Unfortunately I cant rememeber the website so I cant post the link...anyway... I also had to edit some bc the post was too long...blame the Mods :P

[Elizabeth619]

Should A Christian Woman Wear a Head Covering?
But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,[a] and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is the same as having her head shaved. 6 For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head.
7 A man ought not to cover his head,[b] since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own[c] head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12 For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God.
13 Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. 16 If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God
　
My take on this scripture is her hair is her covering.
　
Should a woman cut her hair?
5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is the same as having her head shaved. 6 For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head.
If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God

In other words, it is according to custom. At least that is my take on it.

[LifeEnRose]

i think this whole head covering thing...----edited----- sorry but thats just my opinion. i think this is just unproductive twaddle.

[distinctiveministry]

What is a woman's role? To do whatever is necessary to encourage, exhort and edify her fellow members of Christ's body, regardless of anatomical differences, just as she also accepts this ministry from the other members of the body.

[Elizabeth619]

Originally Posted by LifeEnRose

i think this whole head covering thing is kind of bullsh*t. sorry but thats just my opinion. i think this is just unproductive twaddle.

Oh how Christian.

Hope ya dont get banned for that. I am not gona report you, but I am sure someone will.

[Elizabeth619]

Originally Posted by distinctiveministry

What is a woman's role? To do whatever is necessary to encourage, exhort and edify her fellow members of Christ's body, regardless of anatomical differences, just as she also accepts this ministry from the other members of the body.

I will go ahead and tell you my motivation for this thread.

Earlier today there was a heated debate in another thread. Now I will NOT mention the names of those involved out of respect for everyone, but a gentleman pretty well told another female member that she is a woman and a woman should not teach so he doesnt have to answer her.

I thought his post was very degrading so I wanted to create a thread about NT women and their role to show women are not of a lesser sex.

Just bc we have a different role does not mean we are less human and should be looked down upon.

[distinctiveministry]

I agree with you, Elizabeth, about the awful condescension of women that happens as a result of people taking scripture's words about women too far, and to a place where it doesn't belong. I'm going to have to disagree about roles, however. There are basically two passages about women in church, one of which is likely an interpolation by a later editor (1 Cor 14) and the other is obscure in meaning and has no corollary passages to help us understand how to apply it (1 Tim 2). If God has give n you the ability to teach to the edification of men, then by all means edify men! There is no circumstance under which building others up in Christ is contrary to God's will for His people.

[Elizabeth619]

Originally Posted by distinctiveministry

I agree with you, Elizabeth, about the awful condescension of women that happens as a result of people taking scripture's words about women too far, and to a place where it doesn't belong. I'm going to have to disagree about roles, however. There are basically two passages about women in church, one of which is likely an interpolation by a later editor (1 Cor 14) and the other is obscure in meaning and has no corollary passages to help us understand how to apply it (1 Tim 2). If God has give n you the ability to teach to the edification of men, then by all means edify men! There is no circumstance under which building others up in Christ is contrary to God's will for His people.

Then what about the scriptures pertaining to a woman being silent in the church?

[Abiding]

Originally Posted by Elizabeth619

I will go ahead and tell you my motivation for this thread.

Earlier today there was a heated debate in another thread. Now I will NOT mention the names of those involved out of respect for everyone, but a gentleman pretty well told another female member that she is a woman and a woman should not teach so he doesnt have to answer her.

I thought his post was very degrading so I wanted to create a thread about NT women and their role to show women are not of a lesser sex.

Just bc we have a different role does not mean we are less human and should be looked down upon.

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Yes they are well trained and quick on the draw. like the wild west. If your a woman shut up, if your a man, dont judge. If you a teacher your full of head knowledge, if your a pastor your lording it over me. And last but not least..."wheres the love?"

Nice thread tho, i always like to review subjects and see maybe a little more...ty

[DinoDillinger]

Originally Posted by Elizabeth619

Good idea!!!!! I will work on that now....

And to answer your question... Most of this is NOT my words. It came from a website. Unfortunately I cant rememeber the website so I cant post the link...anyway... I also had to edit some bc the post was too long...blame the Mods :P

Haha, I must say I was very impressed at the time it appeared you put into a forum thread.

Originally Posted by Elizabeth619

Should A Christian Woman Wear a Head Covering?
But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,[a] and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is the same as having her head shaved. 6 For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head.
7 A man ought not to cover his head,[b] since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own[c] head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12 For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God.
13 Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. 16 If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God
　
My take on this scripture is her hair is her covering.
　
Should a woman cut her hair?
5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is the same as having her head shaved. 6 For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head.
If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God

In other words, it is according to custom. At least that is my take on it.

First thought, I would say that verse 6 would imply to me that it was talking about an actual bonnet or whatever since you couldn't logically insert "long hair" there.

Although, my second thought is that Paul here is giving a reasoning for practicing a custom in the church, not a commandment of God. So I would use your answer to the second question for your first question I do prefer my hair short and a woman's hair to be long but that is personal preference I believe and doesn't carry the weight of "Thus Saith the Lord" to it.
Maybe a person with a different point of view can point out scripture in context to the male headship passages that lend it to be a custom as opposed to a design of God.

God bless

[Abiding]

What! Dinos here? About time

[Crazy4GODword]

Originally Posted by Elizabeth619

Then what about the scriptures pertaining to a woman being silent in the church?

Read the verses after it...it changes. Paul says "what?" meaning this is what you Corinthians are doing in your church? People like to use one verse or part of a verse to proofs something bad to look good.

Originally Posted by Elizabeth619

Should A Christian Woman Wear a Head Covering?
But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,[a] and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is the same as having her head shaved. 6 For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head.
7 A man ought not to cover his head,[b] since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own[c] head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12 For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God.
13 Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. 16 If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God
　
My take on this scripture is her hair is her covering.
　
Should a woman cut her hair?
5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is the same as having her head shaved. 6 For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head.
If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God

In other words, it is according to custom. At least that is my take on it.

Because law is being fulfilled in those who follow Jesus, we are no longer bound by traditions that cannot save a person. Whether a person has no hair, a bail hair, or a ball of yarn covering the head, is of little consequence in the out ward appearance (except a fashion statement, maybe). This understanding is similar to law which states that God's people are not to eat pork. This law is of little consequence to one who follows Christ; because the spiritual intent of the law (which is greater) is fulfilled in the person. Please do not allow yourself to back to the law. To not eat pork will not save a person. To wear a ball of yarn on your head will not save you. The covering of your head is about what takes place within you.

[Elizabeth619]

Originally Posted by Crazy4GODword

Read the verses after it...it changes

After I posted that I had like a DUH moment.

I believe that it is OK for a woman to teach as long as she is not showing authority over a man.

[DinoDillinger]

Originally Posted by Abiding

What! Dinos here? About time

Yep haha, my mental flabiness has really gotten out of hand. I can't reason my way out of a paper bag without sustianed and concerted effort. What better place to sharpen my sword than in the bible discussion forums eh?

Good to see ya Abiding, stop hiding from me!!

[Abiding]

Im glad your here this place will aid in your santification, and strengthen
the quality of your fruit, or kill ya ...which ever