Defenders of Dispensational Theology

[zone]

i'd like to open this discussion, again.

let's examine the core doctrines/markers of dispensational (premillennial futurism).

let's see if it can stand up to the light of scriptural truth.

i'll start with ONE passage first.

DISPENSATIONAL THEOLOGIANS AND TEACHERS say Genesis 12 says this (i'll use wikipedia...we can find in a thousand pulpits tho, and of course in the Scofield Bible):

CHRISTIANS UNITED FOR ISRAEL (CUFI): premillenial dispensational/scofieldian
corruption #1:

Support for Jewish People

CUFI states that during the Holocaust, too many Christians were silent and that Christians today must stand up for Israel and protect Israel’s 6 million Jews from the second Holocaust, concluding that: "We must get it right this time. Our faith demands it. The times require it. Silence is not an option."[11]

At CUFI's 4th annual convention, CUFI Florida state director Scott Thomas, who is senior pastor at Without Walls Central in Lakeland, Florida, states that CUFI's support of Israel is not related to Christian eschatology (one of the features of dispensationalism, which holds that the modern state of Israel has a central role in bringing about the second coming of Jesus Christ) since Christians believe that there is nothing they can do to speed up that process.

Thomas also cited Chapter 12 of Book of Genesis, which states that God will bless those who blesses the Jews and curses those who curse the Jews, and said that his Christian faith couldn't exist without the foundation of Judaism.

Christians United for Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

~

there's really no need for anything other than a yes or no on this one.

Chapter 12 of Book of Genesis, which states that God will bless those who blesses the Jews and curses those who curse the Jews

is that what Genesis 12 says? yes or no?

or does it say this? and what is God saying to Abram?

Genesis 12
1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: 3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

 

[zone]

recap/intro:
Dispensational theology refers to the unified teachings of Dispensationalism that address what other views teach as divergent theologies in the Old Testament and New Testament. Its name reflects a view that biblical history is best understood as a series of dispensations, or separated time-periods, in the Bible.
Each dispensation is said to represent a different way in which God deals with man. Some writers also believe that it also involves a different testing of Man. "These periods are marked off in Scripture by some change in God's method of dealing with mankind, in respect to two questions: of sin, and of man's responsibility," explained C. I. Scofield. "Each of the dispensations may be regarded as a new test of the natural man, and each ends in judgment—marking his utter failure in every dispensation."


DISPENSATIONAL THEOLOGY CORRUPTION OF GOD'S TRUTH #2:

Distinction Between Israel and the Church
All dispensationalists perceive a clear distinction between Israel and the church, particularly as different groups who receive a different set of promises. Dispensationalists hold that God provided the nation of Israel with specific promises which will be fulfilled at a future time in the Jews. The Church has received a different set of promises than that of Israel. Most dispensationalists also recognize "membership" overlap between Israel and the Church. Jewish Christians such as Paul, Peter and John are in this category. While most do not believe that Israel and the church are mutually exclusive groups, there is a small minority of past and present dispensationalists who do. Those who do hold that Israel and the church are mutually exclusive include some classical dispensationalists and virtually all ultradispensationalists.

Relationship between the covenants
One of the most crucial covenants which highlight the differences between progressive and traditional dispensationalists is the new covenant. In the past, dispensationalists have had a surprising variety of views with regard to the new covenant. Some dispensationalists (Charles Ryrie, Walvoord in the 1950s) argued for two new covenants: one new covenant for the church and another new covenant for Israel.

~

is the above TRUTH? yes or no. that's all one needs to answer.

~

Romans 9:8
This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.


Ephesians 2:14
For Christ himself has brought peace to us. He united Jews and Gentiles into one people when, in his own body on the cross, he broke down the wall of hostility that separated us.


Ephesians 3
The Mystery of the Gospel Revealed
1For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner for Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles— 2assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly. 4When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. 6This mystery isa that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

7Of this gospel I was made a minister according to the gift of God’s grace, which was given me by the working of his power. 8To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages inb God who created all things, 10so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. 11This was according to the eternal purpose that he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through our faith in him. 13So I ask you not to lose heart over what I am suffering for you, which is your glory


Galatians 3:29
And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.


Matthew 3:29
And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham.


Galatians 4
Example of Hagar and Sarah
21Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;e she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written,

“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”

28Now you,f brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.

 

[Scotth1960]

i'd like to open this discussion, again.

let's examine the core doctrines/markers of dispensational (premillennial futurism).

let's see if it can stand up to the light of scriptural truth.

i'll start with ONE passage first.

DISPENSATIONAL THEOLOGIANS AND TEACHERS say Genesis 12 says this (i'll use wikipedia...we can find in a thousand pulpits tho, and of course in the Scofield Bible):

CHRISTIANS UNITED FOR ISRAEL (CUFI): premillenial dispensational/scofieldian
corruption #1:

Support for Jewish People

CUFI states that during the Holocaust, too many Christians were silent and that Christians today must stand up for Israel and protect Israel’s 6 million Jews from the second Holocaust, concluding that: "We must get it right this time. Our faith demands it. The times require it. Silence is not an option."[11]

At CUFI's 4th annual convention, CUFI Florida state director Scott Thomas, who is senior pastor at Without Walls Central in Lakeland, Florida, states that CUFI's support of Israel is not related to Christian eschatology (one of the features of dispensationalism, which holds that the modern state of Israel has a central role in bringing about the second coming of Jesus Christ) since Christians believe that there is nothing they can do to speed up that process.

Thomas also cited Chapter 12 of Book of Genesis, which states that God will bless those who blesses the Jews and curses those who curse the Jews, and said that his Christian faith couldn't exist without the foundation of Judaism.

Christians United for Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

~

there's really no need for anything other than a yes or no on this one.

Chapter 12 of Book of Genesis, which states that God will bless those who blesses the Jews and curses those who curse the Jews

is that what Genesis 12 says? yes or no?

or does it say this? and what is God saying to Abram?

Genesis 12
1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: 3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Dear Zone: God bless you.

Books you and I can both learn from.

Gerstner, John H. Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth: A Critique of Dispensationalist Theology.

Bahnsen, Greg L., & Gentry, Jr., Kenneth L. House Divided: The Break-Up of Dispensationalist Theology.

See also the works of William E. Cox, Why I Left Scofieldism, Oswald T. Allis, and Philip Mauro. And David Chilton. They aren't Eastern Orthodox Christians, but much of what they say agrees with the amillennial theology of the EOC.

In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[zone]

DISPENSATIONAL THEOLOGY'S CORRUPTION #3:

Christ was rejected by SOME, therefore the Kingdom is Postponed and Daniel 9 unfulfilled....a PLAN B "mystery church age" was inserted into the GAP.


The Kingdom Offer
Dispensationalism believes that the purpose of the first advent of Jesus Christ was to offer an earthly Kingdom to the Jews. This Kingdom would reinstate the Old Testament legal system and it's expansion to the entire world under the Messiah. When the Jews rejected Jesus Christ and His Kingdom offer, plan B went into effect and Christ went to the cross to initiate the dispensation of Grace and the "mystery church". Had Israel received her King there would have been no cross - and no Gospel!

When Jesus came, He made a bona fide offer of the Kingdom and power to the people of Israel.12

What then, if the Jews had done their duty and accepted this offer, of the salvation of mankind? What of the cross - "without shedding of blood there is no remission"? What of the prophecies pointing to the cross? How could Christ offer a Kingdom that He could not permit to be established lest there be no salvation of man by His shed Blood?

Dispensationalists attempt to absolve themselves from the concept of making God a liar by claiming He knew no one would call His bluff. He knew before He came that they would refuse it - knew from all eternity; hence, there are prophets which speak of His coming to die for us.13

Still, the problem stands. Even if Christ made an earthly Kingdom offer knowing that the Jews would refuse, the offer could not have been redeemed. An offer that is impossible to honor is not a sincere offer but a fraud. Our God makes no insincere offers. Besides, if Christ came to establish an earthly Kingdom for the Jews surely He had opportunity, and the support of the masses -

"Therefore when Jesus perceived that they were about to come and take Him by force to make Him
king, He departed again to the mountain by Himself alone." -John 6:15

No, Christ came at the set time to die on the cross, to redeem fallen mankind. All true sons of Abraham recognized Him. It is at the Ascension that He received His Kingdom, and He is seated now on His Throne!

"Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints,
do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: that the God of our
Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the
knowledge of Him, the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is
the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what
is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His
mighty power which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at
His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality and power and might and
dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come."
-Eph 1:15-21

The Dispensational Distinction Between Israel and the Church
Comparing, then, what is said in Scripture concerning Israel and the Church, we find that in origin, calling, promises, worship, principles of conduct and future destiny all is contrast.14
Perhaps the central doctrine of dispensationalism is the distinction between Israel and the church.

Dispensationalism sees Israel as an earthly people with earthly promises, and the church as a heavenly people with heavenly promises.

Membership in Israel is by natural birth.15 One enters the church by supernatural birth.

Dispensationalists view Israel and the church as having distinct eternal destinies. Israel will receive an eternal earthly Kingdom, and the church an eternal heavenly Kingdom.


Darby, the father of dispensationalism, stated the distinction in the clearest of terms:
"The Jewish nation is never to enter the church."16

Ryrie considers this the most important dispensational distinction, and approves the statement that...
"the basic promise of Dispensationalism is two purposes of God expressed in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction throughout eternity."17
In contrast, Christian theology has always maintained the essential continuity of Israel and the church. The elect of all the ages are seen as one people, with one Savior, one destiny. This continuity can be shown by examining a few Old Testament prophesies with their fulfillment.

Dispensationalists admit that if the church can be shown to be fulfilling promises made to Israel their system is doomed. If the church is fulfilling Israel's promises as contained in the new covenant or anywhere in the Scriptures, then [dispensational] premillennialism is condemned.18

~


"What is indisputably, absolutely, and uncompromisingly essential to the Christian religion is its doctrine of salvation... If Dispensationalism has actually departed from the only way of salvation that the Christian religion teaches, then we must say it has departed from Christianity. No matter how many other important truths it proclaims, it cannot be called Christian if it empties Christianity of its essential message. We define a cult as a religion that claims to be Christian while emptying Christianity of that which is essential to it. If Dispensationalism does this, then Dispensationalism is a cult and not a branch of the Christian church. It is as serious as that. It is impossible to exaggerate the gravity of the situation."
-John H. Gerstner, Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth: A Critique of Dispensationalism (Brentwood TN: Wolgemuth & Hyatt, 1991), 150.

http://www.icdc.com/~dnice/disp.html

 

[zone]

Dear Zone: God bless you.

Books you and I can both learn from.

Gerstner, John H. Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth: A Critique of Dispensationalist Theology.

Bahnsen, Greg L., & Gentry, Jr., Kenneth L. House Divided: The Break-Up of Dispensationalist Theology.

See also the works of William E. Cox, Why I Left Scofieldism, Oswald T. Allis, and Philip Mauro. And David Chilton. They aren't Eastern Orthodox Christians, but much of what they say agrees with the amillennial theology of the EOC.

In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

thanks scott.
i've read them.
and posted Gerstner above.
zone.

 

[AnandaHya]

so if you sum it in 5 sentences or less Zone what would be the message?

just for our friends who like it short and simple

 

[texian]

An important question is whether ekklesia was used widely in the
period before 380 A.D. to refer to the Body of Christ as being
different from Israel reborn in Christ. Roman Catholicism became the
state religion of the Roman Empire in 380 A.D. The Catholic Church
institutionalized the 'capital C "Church," as being the Body of Christ
different from Israel, though the term ekklesia or "church" was in use
before Catholicism. This institutionalization of the capital C
"Church" is what is meant by "replacement theology." Yet the
dispensationalists continue this use of the capital C "Church," but
place it alongside and sort of inferior in ways to "Israel," or "All
Israel."

And to what extent did Calvinism and Lutheranism during the
Reformation continue to refer to the capital C "Church" as the Body of
Christ? In his commentary on Romans 11: 26 -
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom38.txt - John Calvin says of
Galatians 6: 16 "The Israel of God is what he calls the Church,
gathered
alike from Jews and Gentiles; and he sets the people, thus collected
from their dispersion, in opposition to the carnal children of Abraham,
who had departed from his faith." "He" is Paul.

Apparently in covenant theology "Israel and the Church are in
essence the same entity, the "elect people" of God ..." according to
Dispensational Theology, Covenant Theology, Christocentric Theology

On http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/ar...jewsfirst.html a
Calvinist, Richard L. Pratt Jr says ""In line with Calvin's view, it
is common for Reformed theologians to speak of Israel as the church
and the church as Israel."15
15 Clowney, Edmund P. The Church. Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press,
1995, pp. 42-44. Hodge, Charles. Systematic Theology. Grand Rapids:
Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1993, vol. 3, pp. 548-552

The only source on orthodox Lutheranism I have handy is from
http://www.opednews.com/seese050504_...ationalism.htm where a Missouri
Sunod Lutheran says
"The theology of the Reformation as held by the LCMS (Lutheran Church
Missouri Synod, of which I became a member some years back) is
basically the same doctrine as held by the founders of our nation, who
were largely Calvinists. Luther and Calvin were contemporaries and
had their differences, so the Lutheran church has some doctrinal
differences with the Calvinist theology. But But both reject the
dispensationalist view as a latter day delusion..."

The postulate that the Bible must be consistently interpreted in a literal
way is very important in dispensationalism The classical dispensationalists
say their claim that "Israel" in scripture must always be physical Israel
derives from their consistent literal "hermeneutic," from the pagan god
Hermes.

Their literal hermeneutic goes along with their insistence that "all Israel"
must be honored, which includes everybody who has or claims to have the
DNA of Abraham, and all Israelites who rejected Christ and continue to do so
are part of their "all Israel."

They took over most of the evangelical denominations
in a few years after the Niagra Bible Conference (1876 to 1897) and the
first edition of the Scofield Reference Bible in 1909. They almost made evangelical
Christianity into another faith, and did make it into another Gospel within the general
structure of institutionalized Christianity. This "other Gospel" (Galatians 1: 6-9) within
the organized Christian "church" serves to honor "all Israel."

There is no New Testament scripture saying "all Israel" remains the chosen people. There
is no more entry into Israel by birth, no more racism, and arguments about those who claim
to be Jews but don't have the DNA of Abraham are arguments within the flesh, not within the Spirit.

Theliteralist hermeneutic of dispensationalism goes along with its honoring of the Israel of the
Old Covenant. There were clearly individuals within the Old Covenant who were led by
the Spirit, these were a Remnant. But the majority of Israelites which dispensationalism honors were
operating in the physical, in the carnal nature of man, not in the spirit. We can begin to ask to what
extent classical dispensationalism, in honoring physical Israel, and some early dispensationalists
placed Israelites above Gentile Christians in the thousand year Kingdom, were fixated on the physical level.
Dispensationalism's literalist bent plays into the physical. Take a scripture like Romans 8: 1, 9: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit..But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Dispensationalists may give lip service to this text, but is it really true of where they have positioned themselves, in honoring "all Israel" so much and focusing upon the literal-physical? "Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"

They are fearful of metaphoric understandings, and sometimes fearful of tying a thread of scriptures
together into an overall meaning, unless that meaning fully agrees with their theology. And they are sometimes uneasy about using scripture to interpret scripture, rather than their theology, because in interpreting a scripture by other Bible texts, this might be "spiritualizing" the text, something they want to avoid at all costs. There are their key texts, like Romans 11: 26, for which they will reject all use of other scriptures in interpreting

 

[zone]

An important question is whether ekklesia was used widely in the
period before 380 A.D. to refer to the Body of Christ as being
different from Israel reborn in Christ. Roman Catholicism became the
state religion of the Roman Empire in 380 A.D. The Catholic Church
institutionalized the 'capital C "Church," as being the Body of Christ
different from Israel, though the term ekklesia or "church" was in use
before Catholicism. This institutionalization of the capital C
"Church" is what is meant by "replacement theology." Yet the
dispensationalists continue this use of the capital C "Church," but
place it alongside and sort of inferior in ways to "Israel," or "All
Israel."

And to what extent did Calvinism and Lutheranism during the
Reformation continue to refer to the capital C "Church" as the Body of
Christ? In his commentary on Romans 11: 26 -
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom38.txt - John Calvin says of
Galatians 6: 16 "The Israel of God is what he calls the Church,
gathered
alike from Jews and Gentiles; and he sets the people, thus collected
from their dispersion, in opposition to the carnal children of Abraham,
who had departed from his faith." "He" is Paul.

Apparently in covenant theology "Israel and the Church are in
essence the same entity, the "elect people" of God ..." according to
Dispensational Theology, Covenant Theology, Christocentric Theology

On http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/ar...jewsfirst.html a
Calvinist, Richard L. Pratt Jr says ""In line with Calvin's view, it
is common for Reformed theologians to speak of Israel as the church
and the church as Israel."15
15 Clowney, Edmund P. The Church. Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press,
1995, pp. 42-44. Hodge, Charles. Systematic Theology. Grand Rapids:
Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1993, vol. 3, pp. 548-552

The only source on orthodox Lutheranism I have handy is from
http://www.opednews.com/seese050504_...ationalism.htm where a Missouri
Sunod Lutheran says
"The theology of the Reformation as held by the LCMS (Lutheran Church
Missouri Synod, of which I became a member some years back) is
basically the same doctrine as held by the founders of our nation, who
were largely Calvinists. Luther and Calvin were contemporaries and
had their differences, so the Lutheran church has some doctrinal
differences with the Calvinist theology. But But both reject the
dispensationalist view as a latter day delusion..."

The postulate that the Bible must be consistently interpreted in a literal
way is very important in dispensationalism The classical dispensationalists
say their claim that "Israel" in scripture must always be physical Israel
derives from their consistent literal "hermeneutic," from the pagan god
Hermes.

Their literal hermeneutic goes along with their insistence that "all Israel"
must be honored, which includes everybody who has or claims to have the
DNA of Abraham, and all Israelites who rejected Christ and continue to do so
are part of their "all Israel."

They took over most of the evangelical denominations
in a few years after the Niagra Bible Conference (1876 to 1897) and the
first edition of the Scofield Reference Bible in 1909. They almost made evangelical
Christianity into another faith, and did make it into another Gospel within the general
structure of institutionalized Christianity. This "other Gospel" (Galatians 1: 6-9) within
the organized Christian "church" serves to honor "all Israel."

There is no New Testament scripture saying "all Israel" remains the chosen people. There
is no more entry into Israel by birth, no more racism, and arguments about those who claim
to be Jews but don't have the DNA of Abraham are arguments within the flesh, not within the Spirit.

Theliteralist hermeneutic of dispensationalism goes along with its honoring of the Israel of the
Old Covenant. There were clearly individuals within the Old Covenant who were led by
the Spirit, these were a Remnant. But the majority of Israelites which dispensationalism honors were
operating in the physical, in the carnal nature of man, not in the spirit. We can begin to ask to what
extent classical dispensationalism, in honoring physical Israel, and some early dispensationalists
placed Israelites above Gentile Christians in the thousand year Kingdom, were fixated on the physical level.

Dispensationalism's literalist bent plays into the physical. Take a scripture like Romans 8: 1, 9: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit..But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Dispensationalists may give lip service to this text, but is it really true of where they have positioned themselves, in honoring "all Israel" so much and focusing upon the literal-physical? "Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"

They are fearful of metaphoric understandings, and sometimes fearful of tying a thread of scriptures together into an overall meaning, unless that meaning fully agrees with their theology.

And they are sometimes uneasy about using scripture to interpret scripture, rather than their theology, because in interpreting a scripture by other Bible texts, this might be "spiritualizing" the text, something they want to avoid at all costs.

There are their key texts, like Romans 11: 26, for which they will reject all use of other scriptures in interpreting

texian:
thanks for highlighting some of the features of dispy theology, that surely we can begin to recognize when we hear it. it has to be stopped, it must be fought.

one linchpin in their faulty heremeutic is their carnal understanding (physical) of the messianic redemptive portion of history between the Two Advents metaphorically called a thousand years (an hebraism) in Revelation 20.

from this single symbolic visionary phrase, a thousand years , an entire eschatological system (last things) was created: an earthly kingdom on earth AFTER the Second Advent and Final Judgment.

the church has traditionally, as you see in the above article: Rome, EO, Lutheran & Reformed Traditions ALL always believed in what is called AMILLENNIALISM (the Kingdom was NOT postponed, it is underway NOW both in heaven and on earth), as sinners are saved and translated from this world to the ETERNAL KINGDOM, our inheritence recieved at The Second Advent and Judgment.....the new heaven, new earth and NEW JERUSALEM.

~

this false theological system was injected into "evangelicalism" by stealth by the Pharisees who need an earthly kingdom, with them at the helm.

pretribulation rapture is another red falg indicating one is believing this false gospel/theology.

the actual result has been to use the GOLEM (an alchemically created monster to do the kabbalist's will, then to be destroyed itself) of CHRISTIAN ZIONISM.

Christian Zionism (dispensationalism) has driven the formerly AMILLENNIAL America to do all the killing and fascistic arm-of-the-flesh work for the Pharisees as they set up their wicked woman of Zechariah 5.

Christian Zionists teach and believe another gospel, and have blood on their hands. lots of it.

but Jesus died for these sins also, and one is, mercifully, (millions have and are) able to REPENT of this grave sin and TURN TURN TURN.

zone, a christian who holds to:

Reformed
Covenant
Amillennial
Cessationist

theology.

God Bless us, and forgive us our sins.
Amen.

 

[zone]

Pharisees

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

After the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE Pharisaic beliefs became the basis for Rabbinic Judaism, which ultimately produced the normative traditional Judaism which is the basis for all contemporary forms of Judaism except for Karaism.

The sages of the Talmud see a direct link between themselves and the Pharisees, and historians generally consider Pharisaic Judaism to be the progenitor of Rabbinic Judaism, that is normative, mainstream Judaism after the destruction of the Second Temple.

All mainstream forms of Judaism today consider themselves heirs of Rabbinic Judaism and, ultimately, the Pharisees.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharisees

 

[notIbutChrist]

i'd like to open this discussion, again.

let's examine the core doctrines/markers of dispensational (premillennial futurism).

No to change the subject to much because i too am anti despensationalism. However not all ''premillenial futurist'' are despensationalist. Every single Apostle, as well as their original disciples were premillennial futurist, but not one of them were dispensationalist. Their teaching falls under the title ''historical premillennialism''. I believe this is the biblical view of the end times.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

No to change the subject to much because i too am anti despensationalism. However not all ''premillenial futurist'' are despensationalist. Every single Apostle, as well as their original disciples were premillennial futurist, but not one of them were dispensationalist. Their teaching falls under the title ''historical premillennialism''. I believe this is the biblical view of the end times.

Oh, THIS will be fun. Zone? Chiliasm refutation time. 5-4-3-2-....

 

[yaright]

Oh, THIS will be fun. Zone? Chiliasm refutation time. 5-4-3-2-....

Hold the curtain! Rather than closing the show over interpretive language; why not share the living example so that a person can wear the shoes, and see just how important diversion can be.

Biblical language speaks of those who curse Israel will be cursed, and those who love Israel with be blessed. This is shown in the life language of the Prophet Balaam. Later, Jesus demonstrated how much more important living in the nature of a Jew whose life is given to Jesus; than it is to claim heritage simply by DNA with no other evidence. It is similar to say, "Faith without works is dead." It is through Christ that we receive the inheritance. This is a type of obedience of God's people spoken of in both Old Testament and New Testament. It is not by DNA but by obedience that God calls the children of Israel.

I have shared two(?) facets of the separation of time and people. By the language you've shared, there are some who take something meant to be personal with each and every one of us, and turned it into religion with it's own set of doctrines. But if you would, please; take the time to speak of these things on a personal level. What do these things mean to you personally, and how does it affect your life?

 

[Abiding]

No to change the subject to much because i too am anti despensationalism. However not all ''premillenial futurist'' are despensationalist. Every single Apostle, as well as their original disciples were premillennial futurist, but not one of them were dispensationalist. Their teaching falls under the title ''historical premillennialism''. I believe this is the biblical view of the end times.

Well Peter wasnt read and tell me why Peter and the Holyspirit had the church waiting for the Eternal state
next if thats true.
2 Peter 3:9-13
King James Version (KJV)
9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[notIbutChrist]

Well Peter wasnt read and tell me why Peter and the Holyspirit had the church waiting for the Eternal state
next if thats true.
2 Peter 3:9-13
King James Version (KJV)
9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Why wouldn't he be awaitring the eternal state?

 

[texian]

"Oh, THIS will be fun. Zone? Chiliasm refutation time. 5-4-3-2-."

Many Calvinists, in their amillennialism, but not all, say that Revelation 20: 1-5 refers to the entire "church age." And they broadly allegorize Revelation 7: 1-8 and Revelation 14: 1-5 on the 144,000 in the same way. They say the 144,000 are all saved people of all ages.

They could say that the thousand years in Revelation 20: 2-3 is eternity. But this ignores the statement in verse 3 that " And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season." And verse 7 says after the thousand years are expired, Satan will be loosed. Then verse 8 says Satan is to go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

We would assume the Holy Spirit has a reason to include this information in Chapter 20. I have never seen any explanation by the amillennialists of what these verses mean to them.

One possible explanation is that this part of Chapter is what is called a "stutter step." Some of the events prior to the return of the Lord and the resurrection of the saints are mentioned, so that the verses from one to nine do not follow in a chronological order. That is, events of the past are described, and then the texts picks up in verse 10 with the time of after Christ appears, with the throwing of Satan in the lake of Fire. But this is not a real good explanation.

Verse 10 does say the devil is cast into the lake of fire,which is the end of his running around causing trouble.

The problem with saying the 144,000 are merely the saints of all ages and they are not real members of a special Remnant who are sealed before the judgments of the end of the age occur is Revelation 7: 3, "Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads." This makes no sense to say the saints of all ages are sealed to protect them from the harm coming at this time.

Daniel 11 is a chapter which is little understood and not studied much by most Christians. But toward the end of the chapter it has some very interesting prophecy.

Daniel 11: 33: "And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days."

This prophecy fits the apostles instructing many during the First Century, and many who they instructed fell by the sword and captivity. And almost all the apostles too fell by the sword.

But remember that Daniel 11 is a series of scenarios that fit happenings in the conflict between the North and the South (called the King of the North and the King of the South), and these scenarios run over and over. Could not Daniel 11: 33 run again in the last days with a group who are like the apostles and who instruct many and a large number of those they instruct fall by the sword and by captivity.

Daniel 11; 33 explains a function of the 144,000 as a group, a Remnant, of he final days.

 

[yaright]

I took a snippet; "In line with Calvin's view, itis common for Reformed theologians to speak of Israel as the church and the church as Israel."15

I honestly didn't need the scholars to understand this on a personal plane. This statement given earlier is in my heart and the sense of it seems like home to me. It is creation language that teaches it. The covenant relationship and church with its foundation is of God's children (Israel). If you will please allow that we are living stones, shaped by the hands of Christ Jesus. We are chosen by God, and the evidence is not only given in several places in the New Testament, it is written on our hearts. It doesn't take a Calvenator scholar for us to understand this on a personal level. It is in creation language and the intention of this language is staring us in the face...in plain sight.

 

[Zilla64007]

so if you sum it in 5 sentences or less Zone what would be the message?

just for our friends who like it short and simple

I know I'm not Zone, but I can help (I am non-dispensational as well)

1) God sees the the Church as Israel. Those in Christ are heirs according to promise of Abraham, as Galatians 3 says
2) God sees all unsaved people the same, whether they are ethically Jewish or not... All people who do not have Christ will not inherit the kingdom of God
3) there is no pre-tribulation rapture... God continuously calls us to endure through tribulation, so that our faith may be pure and we may be found blameless

 

[AnandaHya]

I thought the timeline was

OT.... JESUS birth, life, death, resurrection, ascension....Church Age/ figurative 1000 year reign of Jesus NOW in Heaven and His saints/tribulation while alive on Earth, 1st resurrection of those Jesus deems worthy to rule beside Him in Heaven, others sleep until the final day..... Satan's little season as he sends out spirits to deceive the world and gather them to do war against God/greater tribulation/ eventual revealing of the AntiChrist-Beast physical death of all saints for not worshiping the Beast..... God's Judgement and wrath upon the world/ warnings and last call for repentance......Christ 2nd coming/resurrection of dead and new bodies given to those who died in Christ/ raptures of those who repented during those final days and punishment for those who forsook God and cursed Him and His just judgments of them instead of repenting.....Eternal establishment of New Earth and New Jeruselum?

don't know why the 1000 years matter so much to people since we are in Satan's little season now anyways...

 

[Abiding]

Why wouldn't he be awaitring the eternal state?

well if i read you right they would be waiting and looking for the millenium on the present earth.
Not a new heaven and new earth.

 

[zone]

I know I'm not Zone, but I can help (I am non-dispensational as well)

1) God sees the the Church as Israel. Those in Christ are heirs according to promise of Abraham, as Galatians 3 says
2) God sees all unsaved people the same, whether they are ethically Jewish or not... All people who do not have Christ will not inherit the kingdom of God
3) there is no pre-tribulation rapture... God continuously calls us to endure through tribulation, so that our faith may be pure and we may be found blameless

wow zilla.
THREE (3) sentences!
good stuff