Defenders of Dispensational Theology

zone · Oct 10, 2011

something is restraining satan....the language of the vision says chains and a lock and a bottomless pit.

it also says satan is a red dragon.

it says at the end of something he will be loosed...for a little season.

how long is a little season?

at the time of his writing 2 Thess 2 is Paul saying '2000+ years in the future something will hold satan back, and then 1,000 years after that he will be released for a little season'?

OR

is Paul speaking in the PRESENT TENSE meaning, while he was alive writing the letter SOMETHING WAS HOLDING SATAN BACK UNTIL HIS LITTLE SEASON/TIME COMES?

2 Thessalonians 2:6

NIV
And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.

NLT
And you know what is holding him back, for he can be revealed only when his time comes.

ESV
And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time.

NASB
And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.

KJV
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time

ISV
You know what it is that is now holding him back, so that he will be revealed when his time comes.

and so on...................(?)

anyone?

we do exactly the same thing with all the translations for Rev 20, satan's little season....THEY MATCH.

how hard is this?

notIbutChrist · Oct 10, 2011

Abiding said:

You have to do one or the other? We cannot be waiting for both?

zone · Oct 10, 2011

notIbutChrist said:

what is the purpose of a literal future 1,000 year period on earth after the Second Advent?

could anyone NOT count down to the millisecond from the Second Advent to the 999th year, the last day of the last month of the last week of the last......and what?

how could ANYONE be deceived by anything:

1) with a Glorified Christ reigning from Jerusalem
2) knowing the exact moment of everything after the Second Advent?

for what purpose is this future 1,000 years, and can you find it ANYWHERE but Rev 20 (a symbolically described vision)?

Abiding · Oct 10, 2011

notIbutChrist said:

the point is if Peter and the church is looking for the eternal state then they are not going to a earthly kingdom.

notIbutChrist · Oct 10, 2011

zone said:

I am not real sure, but the Bible say Christ will rule for 1,000 yrs after His return before ''the eternal state'', therefore I have no choice but to believe in it. Also the Apostles, and their original disciples were premillenialist. I am pretty sure they better understood Jesus' and the Bible's teaching that the teachers of today do. Even the disciples of John the revelator himself were premillennialist. You would have to believe John is the one who taught them this.

notIbutChrist · Oct 10, 2011

Abiding said:

Well i disagree with that premiss. One does not negate the other

zone · Oct 10, 2011

Where is Jesus now?
is Jesus King now?

Rev 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

And I saw

is the language of the vision.
and i saw /and i saw /and i saw.

after this i saw does not mean it came next in time sequence...it means its what he saw next.
it may the very same scene described differently.
it may be the exact same time frame, but on earth instaed of heaven.

john saw things in sequence

in heaven
on earth
in heaven
on earth
in heaven
on earth

and so on.

Rev 20:4 is EITHER

in heaven

OR

on earth

in Revelation you will NEVER find thrones on earth...only in heaven.

does ANYONE who actually takes the mark survive for 1,000 years only to be throne into the fire?
who goes into eternity? anyone who received the mark?

who does not take the mark?

does flesh and blood inherit the Kingdom?

zone · Oct 10, 2011

notIbutChrist said:

it has been nearly 2,000 years since Jesus walked the earth.
we know what was recorded when He did walk the earth, and we know of everything we have recorded on earth since then (nearly 2,000 years of history)

how is it there would be a 1,000 year period AFTER the 2nd Advent and we have NO IDEA what it is for or what happens during it?

where, ANYWHERE is a literal 1,000 year earthly reign described?

anywhere in scripture whatsoever? is Rev 20 the only reference we have for this?

it isn't anywhere. Jesus NEVER taught it.

He taught the end is the Second Advent.

zone · Oct 10, 2011

Psalm 50:10
New International Version(©1984)
for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills.

New Living Translation(©2007)
For all the animals of the forest are mine, and I own the cattle on a thousand hills.

English Standard Version(©2001)
For every beast of the forest is mine, the cattle on a thousand hills.

New American Standard Bible(©1995)
"For every beast of the forest is Mine, The cattle on a thousand hills.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.

who did God give the rest of the cattle to?
why did He limit His ownership to a thousand hills?

who owns the rest of the hills?
how many hills with cattle on them does God own?

does God own the cattle on hill #1007?

shroom2 · Oct 10, 2011

zone said:

So God can keep His promises to the nation of Israel.

It will happen. Just as many are wrongly convinced that the manifestations have ceased, some believe the devil is bound, most believe that death isn't really death, people blame God for things He had nothing to do with. The bible says LOTS of things that people do not believe, and people believe lots of things that are not in the bible.

You have determined it is a "symbolically described vision". It has to be for you because of what you believe.

A little reading, if you wish:

Truth Or Tradition - What does the Bible say about the Millennial [Messianic] / Eternal Kingdoms

Truth Or Tradition - Comparing the Millennial [1,000 year] and Everlasting Kingdoms of the Bible

Truth Or Tradition - What is the purpose of the Millennial [Messianic] Kingdom [1000 year reign]?

Truth Or Tradition - What does the Church have to do with Christ?s Millennial Kingdom?

notIbutChrist · Oct 10, 2011

Zone why dont you address the fact that the original church believed in the Millennium?

Zilla64007 · Oct 11, 2011

the early church was chiliasts...

one of the reasons to why they were chiliasts was to defend that Christ would return in the flesh, in response to the Gnostic beliefs that the flesh was inherently evil, and Christ never had a fleshly body

pickles · Oct 11, 2011

I cannot speak to but a small part of this discussion.
But from what I can understand you bring to question wether we are called to bless the Jewish people.
I have read many of the discussions and pondered what is being said in interpitation.
I have always believed we are called to bless the Jewish people, but have wondered about this ongoing discussion.
I have read scripture as well where God says He will remove the disgrace of His people from all the earth.
This scripture and others spoke that this is God's judgement and understanding, not mine.
Maby there is alot that I cannot understand in all this debate, but I know that my and all of our knowladge is imperfect.
I have seen all through history where the Jewish people have been attacked and hated.
If one knows anything in Jesus, it is that any whom belong to God, suffer because of this.
Also what I have read in scripture , trusting Jesus, and understanding set upon the heart through the Holy Spirit.
I dont expect this to be an argument of support for any here.
But I will do as I know in Jesus, and bless His people, but then, I believe we are asked to bless all people, and not to judge any.
I can see judging the actions of another with sober judgement for correction.
But , to condemn any group, wether Jewish or any other religion, goes against what we are called to in Jesus.
Because as God Our Father said, He will remove the disgrace of His people from all the earth!
Judgement is mine alone , says the Lord!

God bless.
pickles

I will always still try to read and learn what one is called to in Jesus.

Zilla64007 · Oct 11, 2011

there's nothing wrong with blessing the "Jewish people"... but we must understand who the "Jewish people" are now.

the Jewish race are only those found in Christ now.
any other person who does not repent, whether they be ethnically Jewish or not, are bound for the Lake of Fire.

God holds no partiality

Red33 · Oct 11, 2011

zone said:

You relate the kingdom and 1,000 reign of Christ with everything that has to do with the church age, right here on the earth and you exclude those of Israel that are in unbelief. You can't deny the fact that the Jews as a nation and people rejected Jesus as the Christ and Messiah because He came into the world and the world knew Him not (Jn 1:10) and unto His own and they received Him not (Jn 1:11). Jesus was rejected by all to be the king over Israel and was also rejected as the Messiah and the Christ that was sent by God and was crucified by the Jews. This is why Stephens meassage got him stoned and why Peter's message was so powerful at Pentecost that 3,000 were saved. Most of the Jews were not sure who Jesus was and many of the Jews believed upon Him after the resurrection. Christ was on the earth and available for approximately three years before He was crucified and after His resurrection He ascended to the right hand of the Father, who sits upon the throne of God (Acts 2:32,33, Rom 8:34, Eph 1:20, Col 3:1, Heb 1:3, 8:1, 10:12, 12:2). There is no misunderstanding as to the location of our Lord Jesus Christ being on the throne of God in person and also in our hearts by faith in Spirit ( Eph 3:17).

Think about this. In (Jn 3) God sent His Son into the world and whosoever would believe in Him would not perish but have everlasting life. Did the disciples believe upon Him when He walked with them? When the disciples believed in Him, before He was crucified, did they have everlasting life? How many times did our Lord ask of people, including His disciples, 'Who do you think I am or who do they say I am and do you believe that I am He'. Didn't our Lord say that those who are of God heareth God's words in (Jn 8:46). Didn't He also say in (Jn 5:24) that he that heareth my words and believeth on Him that sent me, hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life? Those that believed upon Him before he was crucified had everlasting life and would not come into condemnation. Zone do you believe that to be true? For those that believed upon Him while He walked with them, the cross was still in the future for an appointed time because Jesus had not yet been crucified.

We also know that the Lamb was slain before the foundations of the world (Rev 13:8). I know that you also believe that is when you were ordained to salvation, called, justified and glorified through the election of grace and through predestination in Christ. Do not attribute your reconciliation and redemption to a specific time when you believed in Christ as the time of your salvation (2Cor 6:2)? If you believe that you were called before the foundation of the world, do you also believe that you would be saved at some point in time unconditionally? Before you believed you were conceived in sin, the wrath of God was upon you and you lived in sin and unbelief, but God was faithful to you because He had called and elected you by grace despite your sin or before you had done anything good or evil (Rom 9:11).

If that is true for you, then why is it not also true for the people of Israel who were also called by promise and elected by God through His mercy and grace, who had become a nation of people through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Is God going to forsake those of the nation of Israel that He has called through election, who remain in unbelief to this day, when He did not forsake you when you lived in unbelief until that time when you believed? There are many Gentiles that live in unbelief that will hear the gospel and believe and will be grafted in and this is because of the unbelief of the Jews (Rom 11:12-24).

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in .

Are there other Gentiles that are called and need to hear the gospel of Christ? Has the fulness of the Gentiles come in yet? If not, then Israel is only blinded in part, until the fulness of the Gentile comes in. This 'fulness of the Gentiles' relates to the church and will end at the rapture and catching out of the church. It is not the same as the 'time of the Gentiles' fulfilled in (Lk 21:24), that will end at the Second Coming of Christ at the end of the Tribulation period, but is contained within that period.

Abiding · Oct 11, 2011

Zilla64007 said:

I dont agree the apostles were premil...i already provided proof from scripture. Still you go on.
With no proof they were from scripture or written source. Post source please.

notIbutChrist · Oct 11, 2011

Abiding said:

If you do not believe that the apostles were pre-mil, then you are willfully blind. It is one thing to disagree with their stance, but the fact they were pre-mil is an historical fact

Zilla64007 · Oct 11, 2011

Abiding said:

http://www.oasischristianchurch.org/air/018.pdf

Abiding · Oct 11, 2011

Zilla64007 said:

ty ill take a look

still i just have to stay with scripture whether or not there are different views
with the early church...although the original apostles pack alot of weight for me. Their disciple
dont. But i see your point...history does have value..although heresy and false teaching was the first
problem in the church even among themselves which causes me to insist on scripture as the rule.
And what was written in Peters epistle to me was the next stop.....eternal state...theres nothing
about a 1000 yr layover.

Abiding · Oct 11, 2011

Zilla64007 said:

Zilla...i read it all but the writers assertions. And i seen nothing in any of it that
they were expecting a 1000 yr kingdom on earth..some even talked about the church age being a 1000
literal age. Which could be expected back then.

Irenaeus was closest to your claim..but he isnt that clear as any of them since they were
taken out of their entire work to glean out a certain point which is fine to do but kinda difficult
since it wasnt put forward to them to answer this question.

It was evident tho that they knew of no pretrib rapture and expected the church to go through the tribulation.
but to make the claim you made that they were all expecting a 1000 yr reign on earth...well i totally
missed it in that url.

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