Grace and the Ten Commandments

Malcyboy · May 14, 2012

In today's church I've noticed a huge conflict between the idea of commandments and Grace. Now alot of people that the commandments are no longer in place and therefore to live in line with the commandments is to be under the law, and then there are churches that say that we must follow the ten commandments because we are told to keep the commandments.

My view on this is that, yes, we are under Grace and praise God for it, because without His grace we would never be Holy or Righteous, however I don't believe that we have the ten commandments merely as something to read and say HAHA JEWS HAVE FUN FOLLOWING THOSE!!! No I do believe that we christians must view the Ten Commandments as Paul teaches as indicators of sin, we must never forget that we were once sinners, for if we say we have never sinned we are liar and therefore in sin, and it is because we were sinners that we recieved grace and Christ died on the Cross to provide that for us. However I do not believe that we are called that if we cannot fulfill the law that we are no longer righteous or holy in God's eyes but we are righteous because Christ became the sin in us that we would be righteous. I mean we are commanded to love one another and this is the law and the prophets and to do this is to fulfill the law, so in my understanding of this, we are still to consider the commandments

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Revelation 22v14

“The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given
us”. 1 John 3:24

Is this view wrong? Am I perhaps to focused on the Commandments? However I cannot see how we can argue the commandments when John even teaches us to keep His commandments... would be good to discuss this

SpaceCowboy · May 14, 2012

This is definitely an ongoing discussion that I think can be confused. Your understanding on it biblicially is dead on. It IS important to keep the commandments, definitely. The Lord says if you love me you'll keep my commandments. But we are incapable of keeping the commandments in our flesh. Nothing we can do. It's Christ in us, the Hope of Glory, that gives us the grace to walk in his ways. It's nothing we do. If we abide in him and him in us, we WILL keep the commandments. Because It's not us who lives but Christ in us, who has fulfilled righteous for us and imputes to us that. It's done brother. If your saved and I do believe you are from the outlook you have, then its all done. It's finished. The law is fulfilled perfectly through your faith in Christ. Now just walk in it.

Red33 · May 15, 2012

Malcyboy said:

Think of this for a minute. In (Mt 5) multitudes had followed Christ from everywhere, so he goes up into a mountain, set Himself and the disciples came unto Him. Then He begins to teach them. In (v.27,28) JESUS says the following...

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

JESUS refers to the commandment of not committing adultery as of 'old time' and then says this...BUT I SAY UNTO YOU... the next thing that comes out of His mouth is going to exceed what they heard from 'old time' and this is going to be something new in their ears...

'That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.'

Abstaining from physical adultery was no longer God's standard and good enough and JESUS with this statement is involving not the outward act or appearance but the issues of the heart (Prov 4:23, Mt 15:19). No longer would man be judged by outward acts that violated the law of the commandments, but rather he was to be judged by the issue of the heart and no one could see those issues from the heart to judge them as transgressors against the law of commandments. People look and judge by outward appearance but God looks upon the heart...

1Sam 16:7

7 But the Lord said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart.

You could be someone that outwardly fails much because of the weakness of your flesh, but God looks upon your heart and sees that you desire and are after Him with your whole heart and deals with you according to His mercy and grace. OR - You could be someone that does not fail outwardly and seems to walk the straight and narrow, but in your heart you entertain those issues that come and proceed from the heart and that is what God is looking upon and He is not able to give that person mercy and grace because their heart would not receive or profit from it. Do you see the difference?

In (Luke 15) the elder brother stayed at home and worked in the field and was a faithful hard working son, but when his younger brother came home from his riotous living, what was in the elder brother's heart was revealed and the father of the two had to come out from the celebration and entreat his elder son. Read the story and see what God will show you about that.

hislastwalk · May 15, 2012

As I said in another thread.. Grace isn't an excuse to sin. It's the empowerment to not sin. It's almost impossible to sin less under law, and it's almost impossible to sin more under grace.

tribesman · May 15, 2012

There are two sides of this coin, equally valid.

God's people are not legalists. We do not believe that our obedience of God's law saves us, keeps us saved, commends us to God, or entitle us to final glory. We are not under law (Rom. 6:14-15; Gal. 5:18), we are dead to the law (Rom. 7:4; Gal. 2:19), and we are free from the law (as a means to attain righteousness) (Rom. 7:6). Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believes in Him (Romans 10:4).

God's people are not antinomians. We believe that God gave us His law as a rule for our lives, to show us how we are to show our love for Him. We strive to obey God's commandments in our thoughts and actions out of love for Him. We love and delight in God's law (Ps.1:2; 119:97), we do good works (Eph. 2:10), we pursue holiness in our conduct (1Peter 1:14-16), and we strive to walk as Christ walked (1 John 2:6). God's commandments are not burdensome to us (1 John 5:3).

hislastwalk · May 15, 2012

& I'll add this, the more you understand grace, the more you hate to sin. & grace gives you confidence in knowing if you do sin, that nothing between you & God changes.

psychomom · May 15, 2012

I've been in churches that were too legalistic, and also in chuches that were so drowning in "grace" that sin was almost not considered at all.
So I think I understand what you mean when you speak of the conflict of Commandments and grace.

I think what's poorly understood by some who speak of following the law is that, as followers of Jesus, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, it is much more difficult to walk with the Lord in obedience moment by moment than to follow a set of prescribed laws through which you "know" you're doing okay all of the time, so long as you keep those laws.

I hope I was able to articulate that well enough to be understood. The walk Christ challenges us to is not as simple as "do things A through Z".
That's why His word is a lamp unto our feet, and not a beacon by which we see every step ahead. We must be so close to Him that we can follow step by step, in His steps.

And by His grace, we CAN walk in obediance to Him! <3

Red33 · May 15, 2012

If I am going along in life and I sin today, why did I sin and what made me sin? I sinned because I have an old sin nature within and I was drawn away in my own lust and enticed. So what do I do? Do I condemn myself or let my heart condemn me? Do I let the devil or others condemn me? Do I deserve to be condemned for my sin. YES I do. Is God going to condemn me? If He will not condemn me what is He going to do about my sin?

Here is the two questions that must be answered when we sin...

1- What am I going to do about it?

2- What is God going to do about it?

If I repent, will God accept my repentance and what will that be based upon? I sinned and it was against God and don't want to do it again, so I repent. Does that give me, in any way, power to not sin again? Does God look at my repentance and determine whether I really meant it and give me grace and power not to do it again? What if He determined that I really did not mean it, what then would He do? Would he ignore me and not give me grace and let me continue in my sin or would He would He chasten me at that point until I really repent?

Where does the cross come into all this and the blood of Christ? How much stock do I really have in repentance? What if I really repented and God gave me grace but I failed again? Did I make a fool of God somehow or did I sin again because of the weakness of my flesh and my old sin nature? So what do I do now? Can God trust me with His grace or will He just stop giving it to me? Is there ever a time when I deserve grace in my repentance, whether it was heart felt or not?

What is God looking for when we sin? I think He is looking for a heart that is humble and when He finds it He gives them grace even if they fail 100 times in the same area on the same day. Some would say, God's not like that. Why isn't He? He is plenteous in mercy. When sin abounds grace does much more abound. He has given us a throne of grace that we can approach to find grace in the time of need? Why would we even consider that God limits His grace to anyone that is humble and contrite in their heart.

This makes sin never the issue, because all sin was judged by Christ on the cross. What is the issue is the heart and what God has to do to get a person's heart in a place of humility to believe God so that He can give them grace and they can begin to walk again in the grace of God and in the fellowship of that grace. No one is going to get that grace by keeping the commandments, but we will get that grace by humbling ourself before God.

Malcyboy · May 15, 2012

Hmmm all really good points here, I just feel that for some reason people cannot grasp this concept of the commandments still being involved in the Grace of God. Jesus Himself said that He didn't come to abolish the law but to fulfill it, but when we read the commandments, there is nothing there that is 'wrong' for us to follow, and by that I mean "do not murder", I mean, if the commandments no longer held meaning, then really, Murder would be legal would it not? And Jesus even expanded on adultery and murder!! However I hear people saying "oh but what Jesus said was still old covenant", but why would Jesus say these things knowing that He would sacrifice Himself in order for grace covenant to come into place and to nullify all that He taught? doesn't make any logical sense, now I know, God's thoughts are higher than mine and His ways are infinitely higher than mine (Praise Him for that!), however Jesus, and the Father would not speak to us something that would be pointless or in vain.

hislastwalk · May 15, 2012

If you break one, you broke them all.

hislastwalk · May 15, 2012

&he said it to old covenent people. Keep in mind he was transitioning people.. The New Covenent started on the cross.

hislastwalk · May 15, 2012

If you look at porn, you broke a commandment. If you hate someone, you've murdered. Etc. jesus was pointing out how sin is more than an outward appearance.

Just because someone sins differently than me doesn't mean they're not saved.

GRA · May 15, 2012

35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. "
38 "This is the first and great commandment. "
39 "And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. "
40 "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

~ Matthew 22:35-40 (Emphasis mine.)

In effect, these two 'new' commandments have "replaced" the 'old' ten commandments -- yet, the 'old' is included, and covered by, the 'new'...

In other words, the 'old' commandments are fulfilled in Christ - no longer "in effect" in the 'active' sense - Christ's atonement has removed the "specific requirement" of the 'old' commandments.

So then - God looks at the heart...

Anything we do - or even think - that violates, or doesn't measure up to, these two 'new' commandments - is a sin. Anything that falls short of "love God with all your being" or "love your neighbor as yourself" is a sin. And this certainly "covers" the old testament commandments "do not kill", etc.

And this, by the way, is the reason many modern Christians do not observe the sabbath according to the ten commandments -- under grace, the two 'new' commandments have "replaced" all of the 'old' commandments - therefore, "keep the sabbath" is not considered to still be "an 'active' commandment", if you know what I mean...

To say "we must keep the ten commandments" is saying "we must live by the law" -- which, by definition, is not grace. Under grace, you are keeping the two 'new' commandments of Christ - which "cover" the old, not to mention, "raise the bar"...

(all of this is explained in Romans)

WomanLovesTX · May 15, 2012

The Cheap Grace Trap

In this clever assault, the great counterfeiter pursues a different argument. It goes something like this: “No one can be saved by keeping the law. We are not justified by works, but by grace through faith. We are not under the law, but under grace. Keeping the commandments is not necessary as long as we love Jesus.” Again, we see that there is much truth in what he says, but also a terrible strain of error. Even though we are not justified by works, we are not exempt from obedience either.
Countless multitudes have fallen prey to this devious approach. I see it all the time in evangelism. Christians of every stripe and denomination will give fervent assent to the first few nights of the crusade series, but then we introduce the subject of law and grace. Instantly the reaction begins. “Brother Joe, don’t talk to us about that old law. We’re not saved by works. We’re under grace, and keeping those commandments won’t save us.” Do you see the problem? In an extreme reaction against legalism, these sincere souls swerve far over to the side of cheap grace and almost become antinomian in their views.

How hard it is to be balanced on this question of faith and works! There are two extremes, and the devil doesn’t care which end we go off. It’s like rowing a boat with two oars named “faith” and “works.” If either oar fails to work, the boat simply goes around in a circle. A lot of people are going around in circles, because there is not equal pulling on these two essential aspects of salvation. The fact is that we are talking about two ends of the same piece. This is why there can be no conflict in the matter. True faith always produces the good works of obedience. Genuine justification invariably produces sanctification. The Bible truly declares that “Faith without works is dead” (James 2:26).

Our great enemy, the devil, has cunningly counterfeited both ends of the beautiful doctrine of righteousness by faith. He has distorted “righteousness” into legalism and “faith” into a cheap substitute that does not even produce obedience. Somebody has referred to it as “sloppy agape,” because it also denigrates love to an ill-defined sentimentalism.

In the Scriptures I find three kinds of faith. One is a faith that even the demons possess, but James makes it very clear that this kind does not work at all. It is merely an intellectual assent or mental agreement. It cannot save a single person. The second does work, but for the wrong reason. It is well-illustrated by the driver who sees a stop sign at an intersection. He has faith in the sign and his faith works; he brings the car to a stop. But why did he stop? For fear he would be struck by another vehicle? Or fear that the police might be watching from around the corner to give him a ticket? That kind of faith is also unacceptable to God because it is based on fear.

Unfortunately, many professed Christians have this kind of fire-escape religion. They know there is a fire at the end of the road, and they don’t want to go into that fire. So they force themselves to do all the good things that they believe good people ought to do. This is just another form of legalism that we talked about earlier.

The third kind of faith, and the only kind God will accept, is described in Galatians 5:6, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.” There it is. There is the real motive for every act of obedient compliance with God’s law.

Malcyboy · May 15, 2012

GRA I didn't mean that we must live by the commandments or anything in the slightest like that, what I mean is that, they are not meaningless in our Christian lives.

1. Christ has up-ed the bar saying that not only must we not commit adultery or murder physically, but we must not commit it mentally/spiritually.
2. By following Christ's new commandments, to Love God and to love your brother, we are infact keeping in with the old commandments

However the point in this thread is to distinguish, that though we are saved, justified and redeemed by His amazing and wonderful Grace, To say that the old testament commandments are totally null in our lives is in a sense claiming the teachings of Jesus and Paul and John false. For Paul teaches on honoring our parents "This is the first commandment with a promise".

So I guess what I am saying is that Grace is the means by which we are saved and justified, however by fulfilling Jesus' new commandments and in turn the old commandments, we would be living a holy life, as Paul teaches, the law is useless and perfects nothing, however, without the commandments we wouldn't know what sin was.

The reason for the post was I was in discussion with another young adult who was calling me religious and legalistic because I mentioned that though we are under the grace covenant not the law covenant, that the commandments are still important to us

GRA · May 15, 2012

WomanLovesTX said:

I stop because of what the law represents - the "principle" it is based on - which is, respect for other drivers when it is "their turn" - it is not the law itself or the 'fear-factor' "possible punishment" - but rather, respect for others. It is about 'the golden rule'...

GRA · May 15, 2012

Malcyboy said:

GRA I didn't mean that we must live by the commandments or anything in the slightest like that, what I mean is that, they are not meaningless in our Christian lives.

1. Christ has up-ed the bar saying that not only must we not commit adultery or murder physically, but we must not commit it mentally/spiritually.
2. By following Christ's new commandments, to Love God and to love your brother, we are infact keeping in with the old commandments

However the point in this thread is to distinguish, that though we are saved, justified and redeemed by His amazing and wonderful Grace, To say that the old testament commandments are totally null in our lives is in a sense claiming the teachings of Jesus and Paul and John false. For Paul teaches on honoring our parents "This is the first commandment with a promise".

So I guess what I am saying is that Grace is the means by which we are saved and justified, however by fulfilling Jesus' new commandments and in turn the old commandments, we would be living a holy life, as Paul teaches, the law is useless and perfects nothing, however, without the commandments we wouldn't know what sin was.

The reason for the post was I was in discussion with another young adult who was calling me religious and legalistic because I mentioned that though we are under the grace covenant not the law covenant, that the commandments are still important to us

Yes - the ten commandments are still important. It just depends on what you are talking about as to how they apply in the context of the discussion.

Red33 · May 15, 2012

WomanLovesTX said:

You never hear these same adjectives attached to legalism or works; such as 'cheap works' or 'sloppy legalism'. The one thing that threatens the devil and all of his devices against the church, is the 'grace of God'. He does not like believers receiving grace nor giving grace to one another, especially when it is not deserved. The devil loves to see the doctrine of repentance preached that has no grace in it, because it gives him the opportunity to get people to fail again and then can condemn them by telling them that their repentance was not genuine. He is a very subtle and a tricky foe and some get sucked into his plots by giving place to it. The big reason that the devil hates it when guilty sinners are given grace is because he never got any from God when he sinned against the Most High.

I personally think it to be the worst kind of sin that anyone can commit when they attack the grace of God and call it cheap. They don't know Christ who came by grace and truth and they have never learned to give grace to the undeserving. They sure want them to repent but they don't know how to minister grace or edify the members of Christ's body, flesh and bones. There is absolutely no fellowship with those that do not give grace to others, but instead think that those who fail need to learn a lesson. They can't humble themselves and lay their life down for the guilty party because they want no part of them. Are you going to call that a faith that works by love or is it just no faith, no love and no grace because they have no life from God.

GRA · May 15, 2012

GRA said:

Or, when they have the right-of-way...

(I was thinking about a 4-way stop intersection when I wrote that.)

hislastwalk · May 15, 2012

Religion tells the same lie that the devil told Adam and Eve... "Do this and you'll be more like God."

However, the Gospel says.. Let JESUS' blood make you more like Him!

Grace and the Ten Commandments

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