Catholic Heresy (for the record)

[murraymuzz]

Yes I have - quite extensively. No, I don't - further 'evidence' is not necessary...

The best evidence is the Bible itself -- it refutes Catholicism very plainly.


You may believe what you will -- but, I assure you - [real] Baptists did not come out of the reformation.

"They were there all the time..."

The name 'ana-baptist' literally means "re-baptizers"-- and was given by the Catholic Church itself as a "label" for those who would not accept infant baptism. This group was never a part of the Catholic Church. But many of these people were tortured to death by the Catholic Church -- just because they would not accept infant baptism as being Biblical...

.

Where did you get the idea of (real) Baptists were always around, there is no historical evidence for that, it was made up.

Anabaptists did indeed come from the Catholic Church they owe thier beginnings to Ulrich Zwingli (who was a Catholic Priest), whom they ultimately rejected.

I think you have your information backwards also, it was the protestant reformers who tortured and put to death many anabaptists.

 

[Red33]

Yes it's in the creed don'cha know?



Don't see why Christ would need to cleanse me from any righteousness I may have (then by definition it would be unrighteousness), but yes I trust Christ to forgive sin.

Now if your asking if I've ever had a "sinners prayer" moment then no. There has never been a single moment in my life where I decided to "accept Christ as my personal Lord and Saviour". I've grown up in the Church and Christ has simply always been a part of my life.



Faith itself is a gift, but salvation requires more than mere faith. We have to cooperate with God's grace and his will in our lives. Some people may call this "works based salvation" but it isn't. Protestants (and you probably) split Justification and Sanctification apart, while in Catholicism they're intertwined.

A crude comparison of this is as follows.

Protestantism: God declares man righteous even though he is not righteous (Snow covered dunghill to quote Luther).

Catholicism: God makes man righteous through His grace and declares him righteous when he is, in fact, righteous.

There comes a time in our life as sinner's when we need to be cleansed with the blood of Christ as a one time act of mercy. For you or myself to have been raised in a church setting is one thing but to have the conviction of the Holy Spirit to be forgiven and cleansed as a sinner is what every sinner needs to be saved and have God impute His righteousness by faith without works. The Holy Spirit points to the work of the cross that Jesus Christ accomplished on our behalf and we believe upon that work and trust Christ. That is when we believe in our heart unto the righteousness of God for the first time and that is when we are saved by grace through faith. There is an appointed time that sinner's believe unto salvation and unto righteousness no matter how they have been raised and in what church they have been a part of.

Our own righteousness and goodness produced through the moral conscience is not salvation or the righteousness of God, but it is our own righteousness which before a holy God has no merit of being acceptable or to the saving of our soul. To be accepted by God and have the salvation of God we have to believe and receive the righteousness of Christ by faith, who paid for and put away our sin, as we acknowledge our sinful state before God. The blood that was shed on the cross has put away sin and made it possible for us as sinner's to be cleansed and justified from all sin. This is the work of the cross we must trust in for salvation. We are not saved by a creed, by knowledge or by denomination, but through the blood of the Lamb and He is our refuge and our hope of eternal life and there is salvation in no other.

 

[SantoSubito]

"I'm sorry, but you are incorrect..."

First of all, the Catholic Church itself was created by man 300+ years after Christ. Despite what you have been led to believe (which is truly unfortunate), it does NOT go all the way back to Christ. Peter was NOT the first pope. Etc. Etc. Etc. (i.e., a lot more could be said, but it is not necessary...)

Catholicism was created by Constantine as a "mixture" of Christianity, Judaism, and Paganism.

Protestants are called that because they "protested" the Catholic Church. All protestant "denominations" are "break-offs" of the Catholic Church. None of them existed before the Catholic Church, as they all came from the Catholic Church. They protested and left - and took some of Catholicism with them. And because of this, their doctrine is a mixture of truth and error...

There is one "denomination" that did exist all the way back to Christ - but, not by the same name throughout history. The doctrine of the original church that Christ Himself started has been held intact throughout history by Christians whose "denominational names" have changed (they were simply called 'Christians' at the first) -- yet, the doctrine has remained and held true throughout history...

"Thanks be to God for preserving His Word..."

In other words, what is important here is the doctrine, not the names...

This "denomination" - by its several names throughout history - was the REAL early Church - existed long before the Catholic Church -- and was in fact the TARGET by/of the Catholic Church during the Inquisition...

People often say they don't understand history:

"Why would the CHURCH do such horrible things to people..."

Well - what they don't understand is - it was NOT the REAL church doing these things. It was Satan's "FALSE CHURCH" that perpetrated these things - mostly, on the REAL Christians of the REAL church...

The "modern" name of this "denomination" is 'Baptist'.

I am NOT saying that any and all who call themselves 'Baptist' have correct doctrine - many "Baptist" groups have error in their doctrine as well...

There are also those who DO have correct doctrine, but are not known by the name 'Baptist'.

Just remember that what is important here is the doctrine - not so much the name.


The Holy Bible very clearly teaches against Catholicism. It is up to you to open your eyes to the truth so that you can "escape" the deception of Satan...

--

By the way --- just keep in mind --- I DO NOT write things of this nature into posts that I don't feel completely comfortable with until the Day of Judgement.

It is not my intent to "offend" anyone with my remarks. I firmly believe what I have stated to be the truth.

I am only trying to raise awareness of the fact that Satan has "decieved the masses" with Catholicism -- in the hope that some will seek out the real truth...

.

Ooh, the Baptist 'Trail of Blood' theory. It's been a long time since I've seen that here, so would you care to elaborate on this mysterious and previously unknown church that existed through Christian history? Kinda put all your eggs in a basket so we can do this in two posts.

 

[shellybell7]

I grew up in the Catholic faith ie my whole family is Catholic... on both sides... My Best Friend invited me to an Assemblies of God church when i was 15 years old I mocked their beliefs at first and laughed when they spoke in tongues because I was indoctrinated with the Catholic faith I grew up in Catholic schooling and church until age 8 I would have continued in that faith had we not moved states..anyways When i became born again .. The Lord (not people) showed me all the things I had formerly believed about Mary, Saints , the Pope etc were all wrong.. and I repented and turned to Jesus the only ONE who ever saved me and will ever be able to save anyone. IF you are born again the Lord seriously brings you out.. like he did with me. I know the Lord is powerful enough to bring anyone out of a false teaching.

I also believe that people will rely on their own understanding then wanting to learn the truth or they want to be right , to them that is more important than the truth.

Thank You Robo for posting this thread because honestly You can tell me how catholics are Christian all day long but when matched to the Bible .. they are proven a false christ.

 

[Katy-follower]

I grew up in Catholic schooling

Same here! I went to a convent school in my early years because my mother was a strong Catholic and wanted to raise me and my siblings that way. She later had a dramatic conversion just like Paul on Damascus road! Looking back, I'm not sure I would've been exposed to the truth myself had she have remained Catholic back then.

I then married a devout Catholic when I was a backsliding Christian. I didn't grow in the faith after I was initially saved so was ignorant of the differences in church doctrines at that point and just not committed as a Christian. I was young and living in the flesh, not feeding on God's word at all.

It saddens me that the simple truth is right there, but many people just cannot see it. They won't humble themselves to God. It's pride that gets in the way and they rely on their earthly wisdom and logic (which God rebukes) to justify their beliefs. They favor the most popular route (the broad road) when they need to be on that narrow road. God said he's destroyed the wisdom of the proud and He's right because some of the most intelligent men cannot understand the simple Gospel message, yet a child can understand and know God, because it's through faith. God rebukes the proud and gives grace to the humble.

Everything must be measured against the bible. So many are led astray because they refuse to do that.

Anyway, here's something interesting I came across recently.....

 

[SantoSubito]

Same here! I went to a convent school in my early years because my mother was a strong Catholic and wanted to raise me and my siblings that way. She later had a dramatic conversion just like Paul on Damascus road! Looking back, I'm not sure I would've been exposed to the truth myself had she have remained Catholic back then.

I then married a devout Catholic when I was a backsliding Christian. I didn't grow in the faith after I was initially saved so was ignorant of the differences in church doctrines at that point and just not committed as a Christian. I was young and living in the flesh, not feeding on God's word at all.

It saddens me that the simple truth is right there, but many people just cannot see it. They won't humble themselves to God. It's pride that gets in the way and they rely on their earthly wisdom and logic (which God rebukes) to justify their beliefs. They favor the most popular route (the broad road) when they need to be on that narrow road. God said he's destroyed the wisdom of the proud and He's right because some of the most intelligent men cannot understand the simple Gospel message, yet a child can understand and know God, because it's through faith. God rebukes the proud and gives grace to the humble.

Everything must be measured against the bible. So many are led astray because they refuse to do that.

Anyway, here's something interesting I came across recently.....

I do believe that particular snippet is referring to the head of the Church of England, the Queen.

 

[Katy-follower]

I do believe that particular snippet is referring to the head of the Church of England, the Queen.

Yes, the author was referring to the Church of England, but the scripture itself is referring to the rich. One cannot love the world and it's riches and also love God because the two are in contrast. The rich man would not give up his wealth to follow Jesus. Those who love their life in this world (inc their riches) will lose it.

For example - the pope claims to be Christ's representative on earth, yet he does not live a humble lifestyle. He has a throne and all things gold and wealth are associated with the Vatican. We are to not go after fleshy things.

 

[marianna]

OH yes we do, We are saved by grace through faith and works, that is what Catholics teach.

but the Bible says th opposite of what you say and this seems to be important. it says we are saved by grace through faith and its careful to say it is not of works.

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. - St Paul Ephesians 2

No we don't work for our salvation, any work we do is because of the love we have for the Lord God, and no charity would be possible without the grace of God. The book of James is quite clear on this subject.

but with all due respect because i do respect my catholic friends you changed your opinion in a next sentence. somethings not right with your ideas.
you said at firsat saved by grace through faith and works, and paul said specifically the opposite. then you say the good wortks we do are are because we love the Lord (which i agree with), but the Bible said only save dpeople love the Lord so you first staement again is incorrect isnt it?

And what are the good works thyat save you? no one answers this question qwhen i ask it, and i need to know - what are the good works? I know that St Paul said not alll are teachers, not all are evangelists and such. Aren't good works persuing righteosuness in our daily lives and being good Mothers and Fathers and living according to the Laws in our world? And I'm opretty certain good works are also attending our church and reading the Bible as well. But i was interested in what good works Catholicsbelieve save them along with faith?
marianna

 

[murraymuzz]

but the Bible says th opposite of what you say and this seems to be important. it says we are saved by grace through faith and its careful to say it is not of works.

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. - St Paul Ephesians 2


but with all due respect because i do respect my catholic friends you changed your opinion in a next sentence. somethings not right with your ideas.
you said at firsat saved by grace through faith and works, and paul said specifically the opposite. then you say the good wortks we do are are because we love the Lord (which i agree with), but the Bible said only save dpeople love the Lord so you first staement again is incorrect isnt it?

And what are the good works thyat save you? no one answers this question qwhen i ask it, and i need to know - what are the good works? I know that St Paul said not alll are teachers, not all are evangelists and such. Aren't good works persuing righteosuness in our daily lives and being good Mothers and Fathers and living according to the Laws in our world? And I'm opretty certain good works are also attending our church and reading the Bible as well. But i was interested in what good works Catholicsbelieve save them along with faith?
marianna

Okay it is important to note the difference of works of man and of God, for instance no act of compassion is possible without grace, therefore any charitable work we do are from God and not from ourselves, the works being spoken of in the passage above are the works of the law, such as all the meaningless traditions the pharisees held on to.

We indeed are saved by Grace, because Grace gives us love, and that provides us with faith, and also from love come the works that please God, for example volunteer work, donating to charity and really anything you can do that will make someone elses life easier.

Now if you are atempting to do these works i mentioned above so that you might be saved, that will not work, the good works need to be based in love.

As he book of James says 2:17 "Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself."

So note here that James is not speaking of the works of the law, but the works of love.

Another driving force for good works is Matthew 25:40 "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me."

If you truly have love in your heart, you will love every single person as if they were Jesus themselves.

So if you have Grace you will have love, and from that love will come faith and works, both which are nessecary for salvation as they testify to each other.

Now another important thing i think is to remember, all people in the world recieve Grace, but some people suffer from hardness of heart and will not accept the Grace, thus they cannot be saved, but as long as you accept the Grace you will be saved.

1 Corinthians 13:4 "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud."

 

[murraymuzz]

Okay it is important to note the difference of works of man and of God, for instance no act of compassion is possible without grace, therefore any charitable work we do are from God and not from ourselves, the works being spoken of in the passage above are the works of the law, such as all the meaningless traditions the pharisees held on to.

We indeed are saved by Grace, because Grace gives us love, and that provides us with faith, and also from love come the works that please God, for example volunteer work, donating to charity and really anything you can do that will make someone elses life easier.

Now if you are atempting to do these works i mentioned above so that you might be saved, that will not work, the good works need to be based in love.

As he book of James says 2:17 "Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself."

So note here that James is not speaking of the works of the law, but the works of love.

Another driving force for good works is Matthew 25:40 "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me."

If you truly have love in your heart, you will love every single person as if they were Jesus themselves.

So if you have Grace you will have love, and from that love will come faith and works, both which are nessecary for salvation as they testify to each other.

Now another important thing i think is to remember, all people in the world recieve Grace, but some people suffer from hardness of heart and will not accept the Grace, thus they cannot be saved, but as long as you accept the Grace you will be saved.

1 Corinthians 13:4 "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud."

I also just thought of an analogy that may help portray the catholic position on this matter.

All human beings are created in the image of God, and God is love, therfore all human beings have love within them. Now if you imagine that love to be a seed, and God's Grace is the water for that seed, if one stops the water from flowing, the seed does not grow, if you allow God's Grace to water the seed, then a tree grows, and the fruit of the tree is faith in God and charitable works. Now if your tree stops producing fruit, then your tree is cursed, the same way Jesus cursed the fig tree. So to make sure you keep producing fruit, you need to nurture and prune the tree so that it keeps growing and producing more fruit.

Also another way to imagine it, Think of a husband and wife, they love each other very much, but they never show affection for one another, and over time the relationship breaks down and they seperate. This is also the same way with God, if you dont show your affection for God, your relationship breaks down over time and you become distant from him.

 

[marianna]

Okay it is important to note the difference of works of man and of God, for instance no act of compassion is possible without grace, therefore any charitable work we do are from God and not from ourselves, the works being spoken of in the passage above are the works of the law, such as all the meaningless traditions the pharisees held on to.

We indeed are saved by Grace, because Grace gives us love, and that provides us with faith, and also from love come the works that please God, for example volunteer work, donating to charity and really anything you can do that will make someone elses life easier.

Now if you are atempting to do these works i mentioned above so that you might be saved, that will not work, the good works need to be based in love.

As he book of James says 2:17 "Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself."

So note here that James is not speaking of the works of the law, but the works of love.

Another driving force for good works is Matthew 25:40 "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me."

If you truly have love in your heart, you will love every single person as if they were Jesus themselves.

So if you have Grace you will have love, and from that love will come faith and works, both which are nessecary for salvation as they testify to each other.

Now another important thing i think is to remember, all people in the world recieve Grace, but some people suffer from hardness of heart and will not accept the Grace, thus they cannot be saved, but as long as you accept the Grace you will be saved.

1 Corinthians 13:4 "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud."

O.k. thank you.
but you said
Originally Posted by murraymuzz
OH yes we do, We are saved by grace through faith and works, that is what Catholics teach.

 

[Red33]

The one work that you can tell a catholic they can participate in when it comes to salvation is the work of faith and of believing upon and in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness and cleansing of all their sin. That is the only work they can have put on their account that God accepts because it acknowledges the finished work of His Son who dead and gave His life for them.

 

[SantoSubito]

Yes, the author was referring to the Church of England, but the scripture itself is referring to the rich. One cannot love the world and it's riches and also love God because the two are in contrast. The rich man would not give up his wealth to follow Jesus. Those who love their life in this world (inc their riches) will lose it.

I think we can both agree that just because someone is wealthy does not mean they are damned.

For example - the pope claims to be Christ's representative on earth, yet he does not live a humble lifestyle. He has a throne and all things gold and wealth are associated with the Vatican. We are to not go after fleshy things.

I would think it actually is a pretty humble lifestyle the Pope lives. Out of the whole Papal Palace he lives in two rooms with the rest being offices and the like. The Pope personally owns nothing in the Vatican as it is all the property of the Church at large.

And yes the Vatican does have lots of art, but it is hardly wealthy. Almost all the money that comes in to the Church each year goes to the various services the Church offers the poor and to maintaining the art in museums for people to view, for free.

 

[Angel997]

Are the only differences between the Catholic and Pentecostal bible the extra books in OT?

 

[Rickee]

What is a " Pentecostal Bible"?

 

[Rickee]

I think we can both agree that just because someone is wealthy does not mean they are damned.



I would think it actually is a pretty humble lifestyle the Pope lives. Out of the whole Papal Palace he lives in two rooms with the rest being offices and the like. The Pope personally owns nothing in the Vatican as it is all the property of the Church at large.

And yes the Vatican does have lots of art, but it is hardly wealthy. Almost all the money that comes in to the Church each year goes to the various services the Church offers the poor and to maintaining the art in museums for people to view, for free.

What a Joke this is!....The Vatican has more Money and Assets then Probably 5 of the biggest U.S. Corporations. They have many Wealthy Members Worldwide. What about a the Billions they have paid out to victims of Child Molestation Cases. Where does that come from? They ripped off every single 3rd World Nation they Conquered through the Spanish Explorers, who " Forced" the natives to join their Church and trade in. Their Pagan Idols for " Christian" Idols of Mary, etc. And let us never forget the Spanish Inqsistion.
where Millions were Murdered for reading and Believing the Bible and any other excuse to steal from anyone who disagreed with the " Holy" Papa in Rome. The RCC has a long and Bloody History. God will exact his Revenge one day as it states in Revelation 18. Book it!!

 

[murraymuzz]

What a Joke this is!....The Vatican has more Money and Assets then Probably 5 of the biggest U.S. Corporations. They have many Wealthy Members Worldwide. What about a the Billions they have paid out to victims of Child Molestation Cases. Where does that come from? They ripped off every single 3rd World Nation they Conquered through the Spanish Explorers, who " Forced" the natives to join their Church and trade in. Their Pagan Idols for " Christian" Idols of Mary, etc. And let us never forget the Spanish Inqsistion.
where Millions were Murdered for reading and Believing the Bible and any other excuse to steal from anyone who disagreed with the " Holy" Papa in Rome. The RCC has a long and Bloody History. God will exact his Revenge one day as it states in Revelation 18. Book it!!

Just a reminder, thou shalt not bear false witness.

"No informed person would endeavor to maintain that the churchmen were always in the right, but by the same token no one can deny that they were generally on the side of the angels in their treatment of the Indians. It was the outraged voice of the friar, Bartolomé de las Casas, which first made Europe aware of the fate that had befallen thousands of the natives in enslavement by the Spanish conquerors. As it was the agitation aroused by Las Casas and his kind that prompted Pope Paul III in 1537 to issue the bull Sublimis Deus in which he declared: "The said Indians and all other people who may later be discovered by Christians, are by no means to be deprived of their liberty or the possession of their property, even though they be outside the faith of Jesus Christ." (American Catholicism, 5)


"Near the outset of the Inquisition, in a letter of April 14, 1482, Pope Sixtus IV instructed the Spanish to ensure due process, allow legal counsel and appeal to Rome.[54] King Ferdinand defiantly rejected Papal control, the Inquisition becoming thereafter a tool of the monarchy, rather than the church.[54] In 1483, Ferdinand made Torquemada the Inquisitor General of most areas of Spain.[54] Its procedures were set out in various Instrucciones issued by the successive Inquisitors General, Torquemada, Deza, and Valdés." (Quoted from wikipedia)


Vatican Budget: BBC News - Vatican budget emerges from the red

 

[SantoSubito]

What a Joke this is!....The Vatican has more Money and Assets then Probably 5 of the biggest U.S. Corporations.

You may be able to say that the Vatican has more money coming in than five of the biggest US corporations, but it's wrong to say it has more money, because almost all the money that comes in goes right back out the door to pay for upkeep, ministries, etc. Even then you can only say that if you combine all the money from every diocese in the world, and if you take just the Vatican it doesn't even make it into the Fortune 500 if you just include monetary assets.

And the assets you speak of are pretty much all art and property, and much of that art is painted on said Church property. For example, I think St. Patrick's Cathedral in the middle of NYC is valued at over a billion dollars just for the land the cathedral sits on. Catholic Churches have prime real estate in practically every major city in Europe, South America, the US, and Canada.

They have many Wealthy Members Worldwide.

Your point?

What about a the Billions they have paid out to victims of Child Molestation Cases.

More like millions, and that depends on the individual diocese. Most of the time it comes from donations given to the Church on Sunday and in poorer dioceses they may have to sell smaller parishes. Which is sad because it means some of the poor have to do without while one person (who may or may not have been molested since people are seeing suing the Church as a gravy train) makes off like a bandit. I can only hope that they spent that money well, because even if they were molested (which is terrible) they are taking bread out of the mouths of the poor.

Where does that come from? They ripped off every single 3rd World Nation they Conquered through the Spanish Explorers, who " Forced" the natives to join their Church and trade in. Their Pagan Idols for " Christian" Idols of Mary, etc. And let us never forget the Spanish Inqsistion.

Murray addressed this.

where Millions were Murdered for reading and Believing the Bible and any other excuse to steal from anyone who disagreed with the " Holy" Papa in Rome. The RCC has a long and Bloody History. God will exact his Revenge one day as it states in Revelation 18. Book it!!

You do know that the population of Spain at that time wasn't even a million right? Exaggerating a little I see?

 

[Spartacus1122]

What a Joke this is!....The Vatican has more Money and Assets then Probably 5 of the biggest U.S. Corporations. They have many Wealthy Members Worldwide. What about a the Billions they have paid out to victims of Child Molestation Cases. Where does that come from? They ripped off every single 3rd World Nation they Conquered through the Spanish Explorers, who " Forced" the natives to join their Church and trade in. Their Pagan Idols for " Christian" Idols of Mary, etc. And let us never forget the Spanish Inqsistion.
where Millions were Murdered for reading and Believing the Bible and any other excuse to steal from anyone who disagreed with the " Holy" Papa in Rome. The RCC has a long and Bloody History. God will exact his Revenge one day as it states in Revelation 18. Book it!!

You are a bonaifde, ignorant loon.
You obviously know nothing about the RCC, the Vatican, and the Holy See.

Crawl back to your neo-Christian fanaticism, and spare us your dishonest ignorance.

 

[Red33]

Spartacus1122,

1 - Do you believe that Christ, as the Son of God, was crucified for you and shed His blood on the cross for the remission of your sins?

2 - Have you put your trust in Jesus Christ to save you, forgive you and cleanse you from your own righteousness and personal sin?

3 - Do you believe that there is no other way to be righteous or have eternal life then to receive it by faith as a gift of the grace of God?