Catholic Heresy (for the record)

[GreenNnice]

The same reason God commanded the Israelites to. God's temple was filled with precious things, so to are the houses of God today (albeit largely to a much lesser degree).

Precious things= idols. Idol worship is of the Devil .
But, that's your pjeeogative.

The Lord, I pray, shows you Himself, sansub, and, He will not show you Him through idols and pictures kissed. So, quit looking there. God wants you to worship Him, most important commandment is for us to Love God with all our ALL.

WORSHIO MARy? Where in scripture this said. Just because Mary found 'favor' with God does not mean she is to be revered, and, neither does her being called 'Blessed you are among women' make her worshippable. She is nowhere mentioned in scripture. The Bible , dead sea scrolls, are of the Bible sans siriach, barach and other left-out books, no?

There are 66 books, no more, no less.


Which if we worshiped an image as God would be applicable. The Ancient Christian concept of veneration of images is different from that, kissing a representation of a Saint or a Cross/Crucifix is considered honoring that person by a show of respect, much in the same way my mother kisses her grandmothers picture every night.

Don't agree, not biblical, it's in your doctrine I guess to kiss Mary and homage her, I don't.

I imagine God likes the honor given by people you kiss the images of His Saints and of the Cross as a sign of respect.



Exactly worship.



It is certainly alluded to, but first the practice of Sola Scriptura would have to be established for that to be a good basis.



We don't add anything. To us you have simply half of God's revelation to man, with the other half being the Sacred Tradition.

'Alluded,' isn't that a word that means 'assume.'

Sansub, we both know we should never assume, especially when eternal things being spoken of. At stake?

You are adding your 'sacred tradition' to your views and it pours over into unGodly practices that are NOT biblical.


I suggest you look into the history of the OT canon and to how we got the Bible. Then you may be singing a different tune.

No need to look anywhere, for the Bible is complete in and of itself and is the inherent Word of God.

You're greatly deceived, your sacramental beliefs and practices are so far off christianity that you might as well be as far as the east is from the west. Ok, not that far, sansub, but close , I want to put my green sheepish face but can't its all very sad to see your sin-free Mary believing self try so hard to sway protestants to your 'Christ's Church' that is such a different church from the one of Truth .

 

[SantoSubito]

No doubt I would not. The Bible is complete in and of itself and is the inherent Word of God.

Of course it's complete, but from what I've read (and many Protestant scholars have started to admit this) history comes down decisively in favor of the Deuterocanon.

You're greatly deceived, your sacramental beliefs and practices are so far off christianity that you might as well be as far as the east is from the west. Ok, not that far, sansub, but close , I want to put my green sheepish face but can't its all very sad to see your sin-free Mary believing self try so hard to sway protestants to your 'Christ's Church' that is such a different church from the one of Truth .

I would, of course, insist that your non-Sacramental beliefs and practices are quite distanced from Christianity as it has historically been practiced. Also you misrepresent my intentions here, I am not trying to convert anyone, I simply present the opposite side of what some people put forward and allow those who read it to decide for themselves which is true. Now if that means some people are prompted to look more closely at the Catholic Church and end up coming into communion with it, so be it, if that is what their conscience has convicted them to do.

 

[systemdown101]

Really? Cause right now i see a web site full of Christians saying they don't accept Catholics as Christians. Yet i see all these Catholics arguing they are. How is that not trying to be accepted?

Threads like these always make me laugh. The Protestants think the Catholics aren't Christians, the Catholics think of the Protestants as immature Believers, and so it goes. From this Messianic Jews standpoint, both groups look like the Hatfields and the McCoys.

Sorry guys. We're all Christians here, so far as I know.

Therefore the sole notion that Jews, Muslims, homosexuals, Buddhists, etc. are rejected, is once again dishonest.

I'm simply going to say that history disagrees with you and leave it at that.

Well more precisely you see certain members of a website saying that they don't accept Catholics as Christians. In particular it seems to be primarily low-church Evangelicals and Fundamentalists that reject Catholics as Christians. While those belonging to more high-church congregations (your Methodists, Presbyterians, Anglicans, Lutherans, etc.) accept Catholics as Christians ... "Low-church" is a term used for any church that places emphasis on non-liturgical worship. Which means that their services often have extempore prayers instead of written prayers, no ritual, and mostly no set order to the service. This category includes Baptists, Pentecostals, Calvary Chapel, and pretty much all independent churches.

That's sort of strange. I'm a member of Calvary Chapel, and my pastor hasn't said anything about Catholics not being Christians. I can remember him mentioning Catholicism twice, and both times he was addressing Mary and Catholics, and in each case he was careful not to offend any Catholics who were there, as apparently we do have a few who come by. He has more issues with the Mormons and the Emergent Church, actually, but I've never heard him say Catholics aren't Christians. And it's really weird, because I've said Catholics are Christians on this site for some time now.

 

[GreenNnice]

Of course it's complete, but from what I've read (and many Protestant scholars have started to admit this) history comes down decisively in favor of the Deuterocanon.

Ok, whatever makes you believe, that's what matters, IF you need more BOOKS than God gave, go for it. Your call, bro. , deuteronanoncal, either way, its not biblical, and, it sure does/did (you put it in present tense, so, sounds like their still desperately trying to get the deuto. favored over the bible )take you a long time to decisively prove your deuto is favored over The bible.



I would, of course, insist that your non-Sacramental beliefs and practices are quite distanced from Christianity as it has historically been practiced. Also you misrepresent my intentions here, I am not trying to convert anyone, I simply present the opposite side of what some people put forward and allow those who read it to decide for themselves which is true. Now if that means some people are prompted to look more closely at the Catholic Church and end up coming into communion with it, so be it, if that is what their conscience has convicted them to do.

Deceived , I hope people can see that accepting a deutocanonical bible is NOT the inherent 66 book Word of God, The true bible, the Truth, sansub

 

[SantoSubito]

That's sort of strange. I'm a member of Calvary Chapel, and my pastor hasn't said anything about Catholics not being Christians. I can remember him mentioning Catholicism twice, and both times he was addressing Mary and Catholics, and in each case he was careful not to offend any Catholics who were there, as apparently we do have a few who come by. He has more issues with the Mormons and the Emergent Church, actually, but I've never heard him say Catholics aren't Christians. And it's really weird, because I've said Catholics are Christians on this site for some time now.

It was more or less a general principle, and some low-church congregations don't share the same disdain for Catholicism that many of their low-church brethren do. But the point was as a general rule most of the people who say Catholics aren't Christians don't come from high-church traditions (which are closely related to Catholicism in culture).

 

[marianna]

We should ask the same of the Catholic as we do of ourselves and others concerning Christ.

1 - Do you believe that Christ, as the Son of God, was crucified for you and shed His blood on the cross for the remission of your sins?

2 - Have you put your trust in Jesus Christ to save you, forgive you and cleanse you from your own righteousness and personal sin?

3 - Do you believe that there is no other way to be righteous or have eternal life then to receive it by faith as a gift of the grace of God?

These are questions for the heart to believe and receive by faith the gift of the Son of God, who died and gave His life for us as sinners.

This is a quite nice post. Ive spent more time looking at this problem, and talking to my catholic friends. I conclude that the religion itself is wrong but Our Lord has saved many in it. He surely can but i don't know for sure. I just hear what they say. its not an easy problem.

 

[shininglight]

I believe Catholics are Christian, however I dont agree with a lot of their views. I think they suffer from a severe case of Idolatry and I believe some of their views are down right heretical. I could say the same for some of the protestant churches as well though. I just let God be the judge.

 

[murraymuzz]

Every church outside the Catholic Church has been created by a man, every christian church outside the Catholic Church have all borrowed ideas from the Catholic Church (e.g the Trinity, Jesus is God) and then created thier own. The Catholic Church is the only church in the world which traces its origins to christ himself, the earliest copy of a letter where the Catholic Church is mentioned, is by Ignatius of Antioch dated to 110ad, he doesn't explain what he meant when he writes it down, he expects the people he is writing to understand what he is talking about which indicates the Church was established in the first century.

"Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God. Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid." — Letter to the Smyrnaeans 8, J.R. Willis translation.

The Catholic Church is the only church who has the history to back her up, the very bible itself took a very long time to come together, but the Catholic Bishops came to unanimity on the new testament in the 4th century, the very canon of scripture every other christian accepts. It's strange people accpet this canon but not the Church who canonised it. You rather accept the canon of old testament scripture made by people who rejected Jesus Chirst and not accept the canon of those who didn't?

So i would ask by what authority do people reject the Catholic Church? Who says that the Catholic Church teaches heresy, the Bible or mans fallible interpretation of holy scripture?

 

[Rickee]

I would encourage everyone, especially Catholics to go to Google....Type in tplease Notice Tge Vatican was the only Nation/ Countryhe following " Nazi/ Vatican Photos".
You will see from The Photos, How Priests, Bishops, Cardinals all hobnobed with Ruthless Nazis including giving The " Heil Hitler Salute"

 

[Rickee]

Repeat...do to Typos.....Google " Nazi/ Vatican Photos" see for yourself how Priests, Nuns, Bishops, and Cardinals used the Sieg Heil Nazi Salute.....Notice The Vatican was the Only Country/ Nation which recognized Nazi Germany and had an Ambassador ( Papal Nuncio) assigned in Berlin. Also a Nazi Ambassador was in Rome as well....
Pictures do not lie good people. Hitler' s Mom was A Catholic as well..

 

[murraymuzz]

Repeat...do to Typos.....Google " Nazi/ Vatican Photos" see for yourself how Priests, Nuns, Bishops, and Cardinals used the Sieg Heil Nazi Salute.....Notice The Vatican was the Only Country/ Nation which recognized Nazi Germany and had an Ambassador ( Papal Nuncio) assigned in Berlin. Also a Nazi Ambassador was in Rome as well....
Pictures do not lie good people. Hitler' s Mom was A Catholic as well..

Pictures can be decieving too, if you dont know the context of what was happening.
This actually reminded me of a video i watched where someone was commenting on how bishops were refusing to shake the popes hand when he was walking with someone, lo and behold when you get the original video he was introducing the bishops to the person he was with, and it wasn't at all how the person described it to be.

Anyway in regards to your objections about these photo's here is a link for you to read through.

Catholic Church and Nazi Germany - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[SantoSubito]

Repeat...do to Typos.....Google " Nazi/ Vatican Photos" see for yourself how Priests, Nuns, Bishops, and Cardinals used the Sieg Heil Nazi Salute.....Notice The Vatican was the Only Country/ Nation which recognized Nazi Germany and had an Ambassador ( Papal Nuncio) assigned in Berlin. Also a Nazi Ambassador was in Rome as well....
Pictures do not lie good people. Hitler' s Mom was A Catholic as well..

This whole thing again? The Catholic Church had to tread carefully when dealing with Nazi Germany because Hitler had millions of Catholics to use for reprisal for anything the Church did. But throughout all this the Catholic Church smuggled untold numbers of Jews out of Germany and German controlled lands and into Russia, America, and Palestine by disguising them as monks or nuns and hiding them in monasteries and convents.

 

[Red33]

SantoSubito,

- Do you believe that Christ, as the Son of God, was crucified for you and shed His blood on the cross for the remission of your sins?

- Have you put your trust in Jesus Christ to save you, forgive you and cleanse you from your own righteousness and personal sin?

- Do you believe that there is no other way to be righteous or have eternal life then to receive it by faith as a gift of the grace of God?

 

[SantoSubito]

- Do you believe that Christ, as the Son of God, was crucified for you and shed His blood on the cross for the remission of your sins?

Yes it's in the creed don'cha know?

- Have you put your trust in Jesus Christ to save you, forgive you and cleanse you from your own righteousness and personal sin?

Don't see why Christ would need to cleanse me from any righteousness I may have (then by definition it would be unrighteousness), but yes I trust Christ to forgive sin.

Now if your asking if I've ever had a "sinners prayer" moment then no. There has never been a single moment in my life where I decided to "accept Christ as my personal Lord and Saviour". I've grown up in the Church and Christ has simply always been a part of my life.

- Do you believe that there is no other way to be righteous or have eternal life then to receive it by faith as a gift of the grace of God?

Faith itself is a gift, but salvation requires more than mere faith. We have to cooperate with God's grace and his will in our lives. Some people may call this "works based salvation" but it isn't. Protestants (and you probably) split Justification and Sanctification apart, while in Catholicism they're intertwined.

A crude comparison of this is as follows.

Protestantism: God declares man righteous even though he is not righteous (Snow covered dunghill to quote Luther).

Catholicism: God makes man righteous through His grace and declares him righteous when he is, in fact, righteous.

 

[Angela53510]

I do not think the worship of Mary is the real issue with Catholicism. I heard a wonderful quote lately:

Catholics have the right Christiology, they believe in Christ. But they have the wrong Soteriology. (How you are saved - through the church, not by grace!)

 

[GRA]

Every church outside the Catholic Church has been created by a man, every christian church outside the Catholic Church have all borrowed ideas from the Catholic Church (e.g the Trinity, Jesus is God) and then created thier own.

"I'm sorry, but you are incorrect..."

First of all, the Catholic Church itself was created by man 300+ years after Christ. Despite what you have been led to believe (which is truly unfortunate), it does NOT go all the way back to Christ. Peter was NOT the first pope. Etc. Etc. Etc. (i.e., a lot more could be said, but it is not necessary...)

Catholicism was created by Constantine as a "mixture" of Christianity, Judaism, and Paganism.

Protestants are called that because they "protested" the Catholic Church. All protestant "denominations" are "break-offs" of the Catholic Church. None of them existed before the Catholic Church, as they all came from the Catholic Church. They protested and left - and took some of Catholicism with them. And because of this, their doctrine is a mixture of truth and error...

There is one "denomination" that did exist all the way back to Christ - but, not by the same name throughout history. The doctrine of the original church that Christ Himself started has been held intact throughout history by Christians whose "denominational names" have changed (they were simply called 'Christians' at the first) -- yet, the doctrine has remained and held true throughout history...

"Thanks be to God for preserving His Word..."

In other words, what is important here is the doctrine, not the names...

This "denomination" - by its several names throughout history - was the REAL early Church - existed long before the Catholic Church -- and was in fact the TARGET by/of the Catholic Church during the Inquisition...

People often say they don't understand history:

"Why would the CHURCH do such horrible things to people..."

Well - what they don't understand is - it was NOT the REAL church doing these things. It was Satan's "FALSE CHURCH" that perpetrated these things - mostly, on the REAL Christians of the REAL church...

The "modern" name of this "denomination" is 'Baptist'.

I am NOT saying that any and all who call themselves 'Baptist' have correct doctrine - many "Baptist" groups have error in their doctrine as well...

There are also those who DO have correct doctrine, but are not known by the name 'Baptist'.

Just remember that what is important here is the doctrine - not so much the name.

So i would ask by what authority do people reject the Catholic Church? Who says that the Catholic Church teaches heresy, the Bible or mans fallible interpretation of holy scripture?

The Holy Bible very clearly teaches against Catholicism. It is up to you to open your eyes to the truth so that you can "escape" the deception of Satan...

--

By the way --- just keep in mind --- I DO NOT write things of this nature into posts that I don't feel completely comfortable with until the Day of Judgement.

It is not my intent to "offend" anyone with my remarks. I firmly believe what I have stated to be the truth.

I am only trying to raise awareness of the fact that Satan has "decieved the masses" with Catholicism -- in the hope that some will seek out the real truth...

.

 

[GRA]

The "modern" name of this "denomination" is 'Baptist'.

I meant to add:

Real 'Baptists' - by doctrine, not by name - are not and have never been "protestants" -- because, they did not come from the Catholic Church.

.

 

[murraymuzz]

"I'm sorry, but you are incorrect..."

First of all, the Catholic Church itself was created by man 300+ years after Christ. Despite what you have been led to believe (which is truly unfortunate), it does NOT go all the way back to Christ. Peter was NOT the first pope. Etc. Etc. Etc. (i.e., a lot more could be said, but it is not necessary...)

Catholicism was created by Constantine as a "mixture" of Christianity, Judaism, and Paganism.

Protestants are called that because they "protested" the Catholic Church. All protestant "denominations" are "break-offs" of the Catholic Church. None of them existed before the Catholic Church, as they all came from the Catholic Church. They protested and left - and took some of Catholicism with them. And because of this, their doctrine is a mixture of truth and error...

There is one "denomination" that did exist all the way back to Christ - but, not by the same name throughout history. The doctrine of the original church that Christ Himself started has been held intact throughout history by Christians whose "denominational names" have changed (they were simply called 'Christians' at the first) -- yet, the doctrine has remained and held true throughout history...

"Thanks be to God for preserving His Word..."

In other words, what is important here is the doctrine, not the names...

This "denomination" - by its several names throughout history - was the REAL early Church - existed long before the Catholic Church -- and was in fact the TARGET by/of the Catholic Church during the Inquisition...

People often say they don't understand history:

"Why would the CHURCH do such horrible things to people..."

Well - what they don't understand is - it was NOT the REAL church doing these things. It was Satan's "FALSE CHURCH" that perpetrated these things - mostly, on the REAL Christians of the REAL church...

The "modern" name of this "denomination" is 'Baptist'.

I am NOT saying that any and all who call themselves 'Baptist' have correct doctrine - many "Baptist" groups have error in their doctrine as well...

There are also those who DO have correct doctrine, but are not known by the name 'Baptist'.

Just remember that what is important here is the doctrine - not so much the name.


The Holy Bible very clearly teaches against Catholicism. It is up to you to open your eyes to the truth so that you can "escape" the deception of Satan...

--

By the way --- just keep in mind --- I DO NOT write things of this nature into posts that I don't feel completely comfortable with until the Day of Judgement.

It is not my intent to "offend" anyone with my remarks. I firmly believe what I have stated to be the truth.

I am only trying to raise awareness of the fact that Satan has "decieved the masses" with Catholicism -- in the hope that some will seek out the real truth...

.

There is so much error in this post i don't know where to begin, First of all i might say you should probably not be going through Dan Brown books for your historical information, as the author had said it is a work of fiction. Constantine did not create Catholicism, despite popular belief this is untrue, any serious history will correct you on this matter. Constantine issued the edict of Milan (313 A.D) which was a religious tolerance law for the roman empire, and he also organised the bishops for the Council of Nicea (325 A.D) he did not participate in this council. Catholicism is not pagan despite what you want to think, there is no real evidence for this claim, only conspiricy theories.

I Agree with what you said about Protestantism 100%

There was no other Christian group, there was only the Catholic Church, you will not find any evidence to the contrary, this is an absolutely ridiculous lie that is unfounded. There was many heresies that broke off from the Catholic Church, thats why there was so many councils throughout history, as to define and affirm what we believe (i.e Jesus is God, The Trinity).

You havent actually researched the Inquisition there is alot about it i could debunk and provide evidence for you, let me know if you want to do this.

Unfourtunately for you the Baptists also have come from the Catholic Church, Baptists are one of the many groups to have come out of the reformation, and have thier links to the Anabapist movement. The earliest Baptist group was founded in 1609 by John Smyth who was an english separatist.

The Bible does not teach against Catholicism, I am sorry you have inherited your forefathers disdain of the Catholic Church, but this is satans oldest trick, divide and conquer.

 

[murraymuzz]

I do not think the worship of Mary is the real issue with Catholicism. I heard a wonderful quote lately:

Catholics have the right Christiology, they believe in Christ. But they have the wrong Soteriology. (How you are saved - through the church, not by grace!)

OH yes we do, We are saved by grace through faith and works, that is what Catholics teach. No we don't work for our salvation, any work we do is because of the love we have for the Lord God, and no charity would be possible without the grace of God. The book of James is quite clear on this subject.

 

[GRA]

You havent actually researched the Inquisition there is alot about it i could debunk and provide evidence for you, let me know if you want to do this.

Yes I have - quite extensively. No, I don't - further 'evidence' is not necessary...

The best evidence is the Bible itself -- it refutes Catholicism very plainly.

Unfourtunately for you the Baptists also have come from the Catholic Church, Baptists are one of the many groups to have come out of the reformation, and have thier links to the Anabapist movement.

You may believe what you will -- but, I assure you - [real] Baptists did not come out of the reformation.

"They were there all the time..."

The name 'ana-baptist' literally means "re-baptizers"-- and was given by the Catholic Church itself as a "label" for those who would not accept infant baptism. This group was never a part of the Catholic Church. But many of these people were tortured to death by the Catholic Church -- just because they would not accept infant baptism as being Biblical...

.