Scriptures that prove the post trib rapture.

[watchmen]

Let me start off by saying this is NOT a debate thread. There are many debate threads in this forum you can choose from if you want to debate the timimg of the rapture. This thread was started from a request I received from someone in the chat room to give scriptures that would help them to understand the post trib rapture so here they are.

The first thing I will say is to prove the post trib rapture you only need to show two things in scripture (although I will do much more than that in this post) #1 that the 2nd coming is after the Tribulation, and #2 that the rapture is at the 2nd coming. (side note: the resurrection of the just is also at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ yet before the rapture this is important to know as we move on)

So #1 The 2nd coming is after the tribulation
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
There is no mistaking, the meaning of this verse, nor can you mistake when it will take place. The coming of the Son of man is immediately after the tribulation of those day. Just to show that this is the Great Tribulation and just one tribulation of many lets start the text at verse 21 and read through verse 31.
Matthew 24:21-31
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days be shortened, there shall no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened.
23 then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
There is no doubt that this is referring to The Great Tribulation and not just a tribulation. We also see that it is after the tribulation that Jesus returns. We also see that there is a gathering together of the elect at this point. Some argue that this is the Jewish elect not the church, but we have already shown the deception behind this teaching. Others argue that they are gathered from Heaven and not from Earth because they were raptured seven years earlier before the tribulation started. So I will now show in Mark 13:24-27, the sister scripture to Matthew 24:29-31 that they not only gathered from Heaven, but from Heaven and Earth.
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
So we see that Jesus gathers the elect from Heaven and Earth at the end of the tribulation from Heaven'' the dead in Christ'' from Earth '' those that are still living''. We also see that this is the Great Tribulation not a tribulation as verse 19 shows
Mark 13:19 For in those day there shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
We can make the case from these scriptures that the resurrection of the just, and the rapture is after the tribulation. However that is not the point I am using them to make. The point is the second coming of Christ is after the Great Tribulation, and biblically you can clearly see that this is the case. Now I will show you that the rapture is at this post trib second coming.

#2 The rapture is at the 2nd coming of Christ (which per point 1 is post trib.
1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
There are two main things I would like you to notice about this verse. First that the dead in Christ rise first. This is important because, there will be scripture use later that speaks of the resurrection of the just happening at the second coming, and we need to realize that the living will not precede the dead but will be caught up after them. So if the resurrection of the just is post trib then the rapture would be as well. Secondly I will give you the timing of this event that all agree is the rapture.
Verse 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
The rapture takes place at the coming of the Lord, which we have already shown is after the tribulation. I could stop right now this is all the proof we need, but I have more. By the way, some thing for you to notice if a pretrib teacher ever teaches on the rapture they will skip verse 15 and quote verse 16 and 17 only. Is this open deception or an over sight? I will let you decide.
　
1st Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward that they are Christ's at his coming.
We will all be resurrected and there will be an order. Jesus is first, that has already happen, and then those that are Christ's, those that have been saved (Christians) at His coming. There is no mention of a resurrection of the righteous between Jesus' resurrection and his second coming. As a matter of fact it says that those that belong to Christ will be resurrection at the post trib second coming. We saw in 1st Thessalonians that the dead are raised before the living are raptured. So if the resurrection of the dead in Christ is at the post trib second coming then the rapture has to be as well.
　
2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, bretheren. by the coming of the Lord and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, and the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
In verse 1 Paul is speaking of two events. the coming of the Lord or '' The second coming'' and the gathering together unto him or '' the resurrection of the just and or rapture''. In verse 3 we see that Paul says these two event happen on a singular day ''That day''. Also in verse 3 Paul writes that that day could not happen until after the falling away takes place and the anti christ is revealed. Some pretrib preachers go as far as to say the falling away is the rapture, teaching that the rapture must come before the second coming. However the greek word for falling away is ''apostasia'', which literally means a turning from the truth. So the church itself will turn from the truth and then the anti christ will be revealed and then the rapture can take place, not before. This passage excludes the pretrib view because we know that the anti christ will not be revealed before the tribulation starts. Further more it proves the post trib view because it declares that the second coming and the rapture take place on the same day. These two events are not seven years apart, not three and a half years apart, not one year, one month or one day apart. They occur on the same exact day.
　
1st John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
When does Christ appear? At his post trib second coming. When shall we be like him? When we receive our heavenly bodies, which is at the resurrection of the just and or the rapture. So this verse actually says that we will be resurrected and or raptured to receive our heavenly immortal bodies at the post trib second coming.
　
I think the scriptural evidence of a post trib rapture that I have presented so far is overwhelming.


As I said this is more than enough proof for the post trib rapture, yet I will continue in my next post to show that there is no ambiguity to what the Bible tells us about the timmi9ng of the rapture

 

[watchmen]

In my lat post I showed that #1 the 2nd coming is after the tribulation, and #2 that the rapture is at trhe 2nd coming proving that the rapture is after the Tribulation as well, Now I will give scripture that shows the rapture is at the at the end, on the last day at the last trump.

Real quickly I will give three verses that state that we must endure until the very end to be saved.
Matthew 24:12-13, Mark 13:13, and Revelation 2:26.
Matthew 24:12-13
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.Both of these passages say he that endures unto the end, shall be saved. Some teach that this means you must keep your faith until your death to get to heaven. Actually if you will notice, both of these passage are in chapters that are specifically explaining the events of the tribulation. In Matthew it says that iniquity will abound. In Mark it says we will be hated by all men for Christ's name sake. What these verse are telling us is that only those that do not turn from Christ during the tribulation will be saved. Those of us that endure until the very in shall be saved.
Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keeps my works until the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
It is only those that keep God's holy word until the very end that will reign with Christ during the Millennium. We must endure until the end show let me show you want the end is.
1st Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stabblish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
Notice when the end is, when Jesus returns. Also notice that it says Jesus will return with all His saints. This is impossible with a pretrib view. If Jesus raptures the righteous before the tribulation then return at the end of it with the raptured saints. The tribulational converts and ''Jewish saints'' would not be with Him. Therefore He would not be returning with all His saints. Although if He catches us up the righteous as he is returning with the dead in Christ as it say He will in 1st Thessalonians 4:14-17, to meet Him in the air, then come to earth with Him. He would be returning with all His saints.
1st Thessalonians 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them that sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Verse 14 says that the dead in Christ are returning from heaven with Christ, and in verse 16 we see as He is returning their bodied rise from the grave to meet their souls, we know from 1st Corinthians 15:51-53 that this is when they receive their immortal bodies. Then we which are alive and remain are caught up to meet them in the air. The post trib view is the only view that would allow 1st Thessalonians 3:13 to be true (which we know it is because it is the word of God) after we are caught up, we immediately return from the air to earth with Christ. Then and only then would He be returning will all His saints.

We will be raised at the last day John 6:39, 40, 44, and 54
John 6:39, 40, 44 , and 54
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should loose nothing, but raise it up at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
54 Whosoever eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jesus repeatedly declares that He will raise us up at the last day. Not seven years before, not three and a half years before, not one year, one month , or one day before, but at the last day.
　
At the last trump,
1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
It is universally understood that this is referring to the event known as the rapture. We see in the passage that it tell us when it will happen ''at the last trump''. We also see in Matthew 24:29-31 that there will be a trumpet sounded after the tribulation has ended.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
If the rapture is at the last trump, which we know it is because God's word says it does. Then the rapture can not be before the trumpet sounded in Matthew 24, which is sounded after the tribulation is over.

 

[watchmen]

Next I will show two more things #1 that the wicked are destroyed by fire at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ, and #2 that the rapture is on the same day that Christ return at the end of the Tribulation to destroy the wicked.

#1 The destruction of the wicked by fire at the post trib 2nd coming.
Matthew 3:7-12
7 But when he ( John the Baptist) saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, we have Abraham as our father: for I say unto you that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree that brings forth not good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he will baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.
12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
There is only three times in the New Testament that the phrase ''wrath to come'' is mentioned. Once in 1st Thessalonians 1:10, once here in Matthew 3:7 and in Luke 3:7 which is telling the same story about John the Baptist warning the masses of the wrath that is to come. So what is the ''wrath to come'' that he was warning them from? It is the purging of the floor mentioned in verse 12. It is the baptism of fire when the wicked will be overwhelmed by fire at the return of Jesus, it is the burning of the chaff which will occur when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming. The wrath to come that Jesus has delivered us from by his death and resurrection, is the destruction of the wicked by fire at the second coming of Christ.
　
1st Thessalonians 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
The destruction of the wicked is not a prolonged seven years period, but it is sudden destruction that will come upon them when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming.
　
2nd Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.
When Jesus returns He is coming in power and great glory, the tribes of the earth shall mourn and every one that is not in Christ including the anti christ will be destroyed immediately by the brightness of His coming.
　
Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we willfully sin after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation that shall devour the adversaries.
The wrath to come is the judgment of God were He will destroy all His adversaries with a fiery indignation, when Jesus returns, not the entire tribulation period.
　
2nd Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burnt up.
This doesn't sound like a pretrib event, there wouldn't be anything left to live on earth for the next seven years. The day of the Lord is a post tribulational event. Where Jesus will destroy all with fire, but first he will resurrect the dead in Christ and catch away the living saints.
　
I have shown that the wrath is the fiery destruction of the wicked which occurs at the return of Christ. It is not the tribulation period itself. Next, I will give scripture that shows that the second coming, the resurrection of the just, the rapture of the living saints and the destruction of the wicked by fire happen all at once.

#2 The rapture is at the post rib 2nd coming on the same day Christ return to deatroy the wicked.
Pretrib ''Theologians'' boldly proclaim that when ever the second coming is mentioned, there is no mention of the church being raptured, and when ever the rapture is mentioned there is no mention of the destruction of the wicked. Well, I have four passages of scripture that will eliminate that myth once and for all. The first text I will use is Matthew 3:12, I will revisit the words of John the baptist.
Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Notice that when Jesus comes to purge His floor, He first gathers the wheat and then burns the chaff. This is what will occur at the second coming. When Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation, He will resurrect the just, rapture the saints, and then burn the wicked with an unquenchable fire.
　
Matthew 24:37-41
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving into marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came and took them all away, so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field one taken, and the other left.
41 Two woman shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken and the other left.
The flood came and took them away when they were unaware, so will the coming of Christ be, but this next flood will be a flood of fire. At this point, at the post trib second coming when Jesus is returning to destroy the wicked is when the rapture takes place. Verse 40 and 41 declare THEN will one be taken and the other left, not before the return of Christ, but at it.
　
Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.
The very day Noah entered the ark the flood came and destroyed them all, once again it was not a seven year prolonged period of destruction but it was immediate, the very day the righteous were removed.
28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.
It very clear the SAME DAY Noah went on the ark the flood came and destroyed them all. The SAME DAY Lot was taken, out of Sodom fire and brimstone rain from heaven and destroyed them all. The text says this is exactly how it will be when Jesus returns. The very SAME DAY Jesus returns at His post trib second coming is the very SAME DAY we will be taken out or '' raptured '' and it is the very SAME DAY He will destroy the wicked. This will be confirmed in my next text 2nd Thessalonins 1:6-10 as well.
　
2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.
We receive our rest when Jesus is revealed with his mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God. In other words we are raptured at the post trib second coming when Jesus returns to destroy the wicked with fire. Lets look at verse 7 and 8 again.
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
There is no question that this passage places the post trib second coming, the rapture of the saints, and the destruction of the wicked all at the very same time. The pretib ''Theologian'' that claims the Bible never says as much, must of missed this passage. We cannot ignore God's word, so I choose to ignore the pretrib ''Theologian''.

 

[watchmen]

Lastly I will give a reference in Revelation 20:4-6 that tells us that the rautre is after the Tribulation (remember the resurrection of the just comes before rapture of the living saints). In Revelation 20:4-6 it shows us the the 1st resurrection the resurrection of the just is after the Tribulation because it include those that were martyred during the Tribulation.
Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands,; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousands years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The first resurrection is after the tribulation, we know this because it includes the tribulational martyrs. There can be no resurrection before the first resurrection, therefore there can not be a mass resurrection of the dead in Christ before the tribulation. Seeing that the first resurrection takes place at the end of the tribulation, the pretrib rapture along with the mid trib, and pre wrath rapture become biblically impossible. The only view that fits is that of a post trib rapture. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the just and the rapture immediately proceeds it.





Let re-itterate that this is not a debate thread, but a thread used for the teaching of those that want to learn the truth of the post trib rapture. If you are pretrib and your heart is set on that, and you do not even want to know what the other side believes or why, ignore this thread. However if you want to learn please read through it, if you have any (honest) questions I would be glad to answer. For those pretribbers that cannot help themselves from trying to turn this into a debate, it just shows you have no respect at all for your fellow borthers and sisters in Christ.

 

[Thaddaeus]

well then you posted it in the wrong forum, for this is the bible discussion forum and it is my duty as a Christian to point out when someone errs in their interpretation of Scriptures, especially when they are saying that they are teaching Bible For truely the Bible warns about the Blind leading the Blind.

post trib. scholars as well as you have overlooked an very important fact when Jesus comes back after the moon has turned to blood and the sun darkens He comes back to earth. He touches down, in 1 Thes the verses you used the people are taken up thus the rapture, we go up to Him in the Clouds. let me show you from scripture how the resurrection in Matt, is Different from the Rapture in I thes.

Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.




1th 4:13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.1th 4:14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.1th 4:15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.1th 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:1th 4:17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.1th 4:18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
you will have to look real close or you will miss the fact that even the scriptures states that these are two seperate events.

first of all, in Matthew it says that all tribes of the earth and I thes. verses only talk about those in Jesus and have believed that Jesus died and rose again , the second point here from scriptures that prove these are two seperate events, God has just opened my eyes to this fact as I was preparing this post look at matthew's verses about the resurrection,

Mt 24:30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
The Bible says this is a very sad, sorrowful event "all the tribes of earth will mourn", however the rapture in 1 thes. is a very happy/ exciting event it even tell us to comfort one another with this Doctrine of a taken up of Christians before the resurrection after the tribulation. It is clearly for any that have eyes to see that this is not the same event, where the save will be happy and the lost will mourn , But it states that all tribes will mourn at one event . and at the other event Christians will have a happy event before that day, that we can even comfort some with the fact that one day, that God will spare His own from the wrath that is to come in the great tribulation as He descends not to earth but to our clouds where we go met him. then after the moon turns to blood as peter preached at pentecost, quoting the prophecy of Joel chapter 2, Jesus touches down to raise both to take the tares when he harvests the wheat. Praise the Lord !!!!

 

[CarrierOfChrist]

Lastly I will give a reference in Revelation 20:4-6 that tells us that the rautre is after the Tribulation (remember the resurrection of the just comes before rapture of the living saints). In Revelation 20:4-6 it shows us the the 1st resurrection the resurrection of the just is after the Tribulation because it include those that were martyred during the Tribulation.
Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands,; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousands years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The first resurrection is after the tribulation, we know this because it includes the tribulational martyrs. There can be no resurrection before the first resurrection, therefore there can not be a mass resurrection of the dead in Christ before the tribulation. Seeing that the first resurrection takes place at the end of the tribulation, the pretrib rapture along with the mid trib, and pre wrath rapture become biblically impossible. The only view that fits is that of a post trib rapture. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the just and the rapture immediately proceeds it.





Let re-itterate that this is not a debate thread, but a thread used for the teaching of those that want to learn the truth of the post trib rapture. If you are pretrib and your heart is set on that, and you do not even want to know what the other side believes or why, ignore this thread. However if you want to learn please read through it, if you have any (honest) questions I would be glad to answer. For those pretribbers that cannot help themselves from trying to turn this into a debate, it just shows you have no respect at all for your fellow borthers and sisters in Christ.

LOL I love the nerve of this guy. He's so sure his idea on this matter (that has been argued for I'm sure hundreds of years by scholars and laymen alike) is true, that if you disagree with him, you're disrespecting the whole of Christianity.

I wholeheartedly agree. We shouldn't debate with him, because he's absolutely 100% right, and there's no disagreeing with him, because he said so. I'm not gonna disagree with him, no way man, I don't want to disrespect my brothers and sisters in Christ by giving my side of the argument.

This guy is the supreme and final authority on the matter. He's like the supreme ayatollah in Iran. What he says can't be argued with. He said so himself; it's not up for debate! If you have a question, sure, go for it, but woe unto those who try to make the case for the other side of the coin! Woe I say!

And Thaddeus, how dare you contradict him! Did you not get the message? You have no respect for your brothers and sisters in Christ! I think an excommunication is in order! Now where did I put my torch and pitchfork...

 

[revelation21x1]

haha carrierofchrist! so funny!

good job thaddeus for speaking up and showing the bible truth!

tooooo many people mislead others from the truth of what the bible plainly says in scripture!
God bless!
Tim

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Matt. 24:15

"So when you see the appalling horror spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing erect in the holy place, Let the reader understand, then let those know who are in Judea fly to the hills."

Matt. 24: 21

"For there will be sore misery then such as has never been from the beginning of the world till now - no, shall never be."

 

[MahogonySnail]

Sorry pre-tribbers, but the far majority of great bible men and scholars in history have believed post-trib.

Don't you know the origins of pre-trib rapture came from Darby and prophetic revelations and not sound biblical exegesis? Pre-trib mustn't believe in sola-scriptura then afterall. If you believe in sola scriptura and pre-trib rapture, it's sort of a contradiction given pre-trib rapture idea never came from scripture in the first place.

Where is the traceable history of pre-trib rapture doctrine back to the early church times? You can't provide it. You'll find it came into christian in about the 1800's. Luther never heard of it, neither Calvin. John Bunyan, Charles Spurgeon, Charles Finney, John Knox, John Calvin, Martin Luther, George Whitefield were all post-tribbers.

I'm partial preterist myself I guess but the post-tribbers have it over the pre-trib when it comes a) doctrinal traceability through history and b) scriptural interpretation.

Jesus said in the world you shall have tribulation:
Joh 16:33These thingsIhavespokenuntoyou,thatinmeyemighthavepeace.Intheworldyeshallhavetribulation:butbe of good cheer;Ihaveovercometheworld.

In the words of Corrie Ten Boom, a Nazi concentration camp survivor wrote in 1974:

There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this. These are the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days. Most of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world. I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution.

<B>In China, the Christians were told, "Don't worry, before the tribulation comes you will be translated &#8211; raptured." Then came a terrible persecution. Millions of Christians were tortured to death. Later I heard a Bishop from China say, sadly,

"We have failed.
We should have made the people strong for persecution,
rather than telling them Jesus would come first.
Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution,
how to stand when the tribulation comes,
&#8211; to stand and not faint."
​

</B>
In America, the churches sing, "Let the congregation escape tribulation", but in China and Africa the tribulation has already arrived. This last year alone more than two hundred thousand Christians were martyred in Africa. Now things like that never get into the newspapers because they cause bad political relations. But I know. I have been there. We need to think about that when we sit down in our nice houses with our nice clothes to eat our steak dinners. Many, many members of the Body of Christ are being tortured to death at this very moment, yet we continue right on as though we are all going to escape the tribulation.

Several years ago I was in Africa in a nation where a new government had come into power. The first night I was there some of the Christians were commanded to come to the police station to register. When they arrived they were arrested and that same night they were executed. The next day the same thing happened with other Christians. The third day it was the same. All the Christians in the district were being systematically murdered.

 

[MahogonySnail]

So personally I don't even need scripture to disprove a pre-trib rapture.

The evidence speaks for itself - lack of historical traceability, and the fact that believers in early church times, and throughout history, and today, are going through persecution and were never raptured from any of it.

Believing in an escape from tribulation and persecution in the last days, shows a lack of understanding in the pre-trib minority, in how God works and His ways in and through tribulation. The church age started with great persecution of the church, and it is likely to finish with the same.

 

[BLC]

#2 The rapture is at the 2nd coming of Christ (which per point 1 is post trib.
1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
There are two main things I would like you to notice about this verse. First that the dead in Christ rise first. This is important because, there will be scripture use later that speaks of the resurrection of the just happening at the second coming, and we need to realize that the living will not precede the dead but will be caught up after them. So if the resurrection of the just is post trib then the rapture would be as well. Secondly I will give you the timing of this event that all agree is the rapture.
Verse 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
The rapture takes place at the coming of the Lord, which we have already shown is after the tribulation. I could stop right now this is all the proof we need, but I have more. By the way, some thing for you to notice if a pretrib teacher ever teaches on the rapture they will skip verse 15 and quote verse 16 and 17 only. Is this open deception or an over sight? I will let you decide.
&#12288;

Paul was giving the believers hope that if Christ came back while they were still alive that their loved ones and friends who died in Christ and had fallen asleep would be resurrected also. Any intelligent believer understands that v/16,17 are an explanation of v/15. To make an assumption and accusation as you have is just unintelligent and inexcusable and can only come from the natural mind of the old man Adam who can't discern the things of God because of the ignorance of his mind being blinded by the thoughts and imaginations of his wicked heart.

 

[easygoing]

seen these threads sooo many times before and it always ends up the same. Neither side can prove without a doubt that their view is correct or some of the more versed ones as above just let you know they are right and that is it. Or they can just try to insult you and call that the final authority.

 

[MahogonySnail]

I think unintelligence is shown in the way pre-tribbers try to use scripture, to no avail.

But here's why!, the pretribulation theory did not come from the bible but from Darby in 1827.

Would the pre-tribbers care to post historical evidence for this doctrine being in the church prior to 1827 ??

See below:

John Nelson Darby, considered the father of dispensationalism, first proposed the pretribulation rapture in 1827.[7]. This view was accepted among many other Plymouth Brethren in England. Darby and other prominent Brethren were part of the Brethren Movement which impacted American Christianity, primarily through their writings. Influences included the Bible Conference Movement, starting in 1878 with the Niagara Bible Conference. These conferences, which were initially inclusive of historicist and futurist premillennialism, led to an increasing acceptance of futurist premillennial views and the pretribulation rapture especially among Presbyterian, Baptist and Congregational members [8]. Popular books also contributed to acceptance of the pretribulation rapture, including William Eugene Blackstone's book Jesus is Coming published in 1878 and which sold more than 1.3 million copies, and the Scofield Reference Bible, published in 1909 and 1919 and revised in 1967.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture

So if you are American in particular, and have been exposed to those above mentioned denominations, it is likely you will believe in pre-trib rapture. However you must realise, that if you want to prove pre-trib rapture you cannot do it by sola scriptura but only by inspired revelation or somehow proving that Darby had it right!

The lack of evidence in early church writings is the reason a pre-trib rapture is rejected by apostolic denominations such as Catholic and Orthodox.

We can't exactly blame catholics for introducing new doctrines and not using sola scriptura... if you pre-tribbers do the same?

 

[MahogonySnail]

As an ex-pre-trib believer myself, largely due to my exposure to pentecostal denominations, I eventually rejected it when I realised the lack of historical evidence and support, the repeatedly failed prophesies by pre-trib believers claiming the rapture would occur in 2006/2007, the really bad movies "Left Behind" series which were more amusing than factual, and a clear and plain and beginning to end reading of the scriptures which do not in any way, suggest a pre-tribulation rapture. Darby was supposed to have obtained his ideas from some prophecies about the rapture if I remember, he definitely didn't discover it from his own bible study - something which formers Luther, and Calvin and most other theologians at the time of Darby such as Spurgeon, must have missed? And I am confident , that if we could reverse the clock, and it was assumed that every current pre-tribulation believer has no prior knowledge of such a belief, and was put into a closed room with only a bible to read, they would not easily reach a pre-tribulation conclusion.

 

[sisterren11492]

Let me start off by saying this is NOT a debate thread. There are many debate threads in this forum you can choose from if you want to debate the timimg of the rapture. This thread was started from a request I received from someone in the chat room to give scriptures that would help them to understand the post trib rapture so here they are.

The first thing I will say is to prove the post trib rapture you only need to show two things in scripture (although I will do much more than that in this post) #1 that the 2nd coming is after the Tribulation, and #2 that the rapture is at the 2nd coming. (side note: the resurrection of the just is also at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ yet before the rapture this is important to know as we move on)

So #1 The 2nd coming is after the tribulation
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
There is no mistaking, the meaning of this verse, nor can you mistake when it will take place. The coming of the Son of man is immediately after the tribulation of those day. Just to show that this is the Great Tribulation and just one tribulation of many lets start the text at verse 21 and read through verse 31.
Matthew 24:21-31
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days be shortened, there shall no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened.
23 then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
There is no doubt that this is referring to The Great Tribulation and not just a tribulation. We also see that it is after the tribulation that Jesus returns. We also see that there is a gathering together of the elect at this point. Some argue that this is the Jewish elect not the church, but we have already shown the deception behind this teaching. Others argue that they are gathered from Heaven and not from Earth because they were raptured seven years earlier before the tribulation started. So I will now show in Mark 13:24-27, the sister scripture to Matthew 24:29-31 that they not only gathered from Heaven, but from Heaven and Earth.
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
So we see that Jesus gathers the elect from Heaven and Earth at the end of the tribulation from Heaven'' the dead in Christ'' from Earth '' those that are still living''. We also see that this is the Great Tribulation not a tribulation as verse 19 shows
Mark 13:19 For in those day there shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
We can make the case from these scriptures that the resurrection of the just, and the rapture is after the tribulation. However that is not the point I am using them to make. The point is the second coming of Christ is after the Great Tribulation, and biblically you can clearly see that this is the case. Now I will show you that the rapture is at this post trib second coming.

#2 The rapture is at the 2nd coming of Christ (which per point 1 is post trib.
1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
There are two main things I would like you to notice about this verse. First that the dead in Christ rise first. This is important because, there will be scripture use later that speaks of the resurrection of the just happening at the second coming, and we need to realize that the living will not precede the dead but will be caught up after them. So if the resurrection of the just is post trib then the rapture would be as well. Secondly I will give you the timing of this event that all agree is the rapture.
Verse 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
The rapture takes place at the coming of the Lord, which we have already shown is after the tribulation. I could stop right now this is all the proof we need, but I have more. By the way, some thing for you to notice if a pretrib teacher ever teaches on the rapture they will skip verse 15 and quote verse 16 and 17 only. Is this open deception or an over sight? I will let you decide.
&#12288;
1st Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward that they are Christ's at his coming.
We will all be resurrected and there will be an order. Jesus is first, that has already happen, and then those that are Christ's, those that have been saved (Christians) at His coming. There is no mention of a resurrection of the righteous between Jesus' resurrection and his second coming. As a matter of fact it says that those that belong to Christ will be resurrection at the post trib second coming. We saw in 1st Thessalonians that the dead are raised before the living are raptured. So if the resurrection of the dead in Christ is at the post trib second coming then the rapture has to be as well.
&#12288;
2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, bretheren. by the coming of the Lord and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, and the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
In verse 1 Paul is speaking of two events. the coming of the Lord or '' The second coming'' and the gathering together unto him or '' the resurrection of the just and or rapture''. In verse 3 we see that Paul says these two event happen on a singular day ''That day''. Also in verse 3 Paul writes that that day could not happen until after the falling away takes place and the anti christ is revealed. Some pretrib preachers go as far as to say the falling away is the rapture, teaching that the rapture must come before the second coming. However the greek word for falling away is ''apostasia'', which literally means a turning from the truth. So the church itself will turn from the truth and then the anti christ will be revealed and then the rapture can take place, not before. This passage excludes the pretrib view because we know that the anti christ will not be revealed before the tribulation starts. Further more it proves the post trib view because it declares that the second coming and the rapture take place on the same day. These two events are not seven years apart, not three and a half years apart, not one year, one month or one day apart. They occur on the same exact day.
&#12288;
1st John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
When does Christ appear? At his post trib second coming. When shall we be like him? When we receive our heavenly bodies, which is at the resurrection of the just and or the rapture. So this verse actually says that we will be resurrected and or raptured to receive our heavenly immortal bodies at the post trib second coming.
&#12288;
I think the scriptural evidence of a post trib rapture that I have presented so far is overwhelming.


As I said this is more than enough proof for the post trib rapture, yet I will continue in my next post to show that there is no ambiguity to what the Bible tells us about the timmi9ng of the rapture

Thank you for posting the truth. The Word does say to prove all things and you have. Amen!

 

[watchmen]

seen these threads sooo many times before and it always ends up the same. Neither side can prove without a doubt that their view is correct or some of the more versed ones as above just let you know they are right and that is it. Or they can just try to insult you and call that the final authority.

Actually the post trib rapture has been proving beyond any shadow of any doubt, it just a qwuestion if people will let go of their idolatory false beliefs in an obvious non-biblical doctrine, and except the truth of scripture even though it may be hard to swallow.



P.S. I was very surprised by the lack of respect the pretribbers have on this board for other people trying to stduy scripture and learn truth (although I should have been)

 

[watchmen]

The lack of evidence in early church writings is the reason a pre-trib rapture is rejected by apostolic denominations such as Catholic and Orthodox.

We can't exactly blame catholics for introducing new doctrines and not using sola scriptura... if you pre-tribbers do the same?

Amen it is sad to see so many have been deceived by the lie of a pretrib rapture.

 

[watchmen]

And Thaddeus, how dare you contradict him! Did you not get the message? You have no respect for your brothers and sisters in Christ! I think an excommunication is in order! Now where did I put my torch and pitchfork...

He really doesn't and appearently you do not either. This thread was made for someone who wanted to learn, not to here a bunch pretriberr crying...nuhuh, thats not true. Scripture plainly states the truth and it is laid out in the posts above, all you can do is accept the truth or deny God's word.

 

[watchmen]

Mt 24:30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
The Bible says this is a very sad, sorrowful event "all the tribes of earth will mourn", however the rapture in 1 thes. is a very happy/

You must have not read my posts above because in them I prove that this is the same event. The same day Christ comes to destroy the unbelievers with fire (in which they will mourn for they are like the 5 foolish virgins that were not taken to the wedding or the world that was left outside of the boat in Noah's day) is the same day Christ removes those believers that have survived the tribulation (which we be a very joyess occation for us who have put our truth in Him). The day of mourning and the day of rejoicicing are one and the same day, it just matters what side of the fence you are standing on. Are we standing for Christ or against Him?

 

[CarrierOfChrist]

So personally I don't even need scripture to disprove a pre-trib rapture.

The evidence speaks for itself - lack of historical traceability, and the fact that believers in early church times, and throughout history, and today, are going through persecution and were never raptured from any of it.

Believing in an escape from tribulation and persecution in the last days, shows a lack of understanding in the pre-trib minority, in how God works and His ways in and through tribulation. The church age started with great persecution of the church, and it is likely to finish with the same.

So you don't think there could be worse tribulation to come? Really?? Is your body full of illness and sores? Do you still have a home? Do you still experience happiness? Is your church still standing?

1 Thessalonians 5:9 - For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The tribulation will be His wrath. He didn't appoint us to suffer it, how much clearer can that be? We suffer now because of the evil one. He is the cause of our suffering. When tribulation occurs, the cause will be God.

Revelation 3:10 - Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.


What about that verse? Could it not be any clearer that we will be spared from the "hour of trial that is going to come"?