The Blood of Christ: "Ransom" NOT "Penal Substitution"

[Elin]

Elin,

Your position is flawed.

For example you appeal to Rom 5:17-19 in the context of the Augustinian view of Original Sin, ie. inherited guilt, inherited corrupted constitution.

Sorry, Skinski, you misspeak.

It is the NT's presentation of Adam's sin, not just the Augustinian view of it.

Thus you say this...

In these verses, Paul is paralleling the trespass of Adam with the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

Note that he says in v.18 that we are all condemned by Adam's trespass,
just as we are made righteous by Christ's obedience (not by our own obedience).

Christ was a second Adam (v.14; 1Co 15:45).
In one man we were made sinners, just as in one man we are made righteous.

Paul is drawing clear parallelisms of imputation in vv.18-19.
In both parallels, the outcome (guilt, righteousness) has nothing to do with what men did, or our involvement would not be of the same nature, and the parallelism would be destroyed.

The clear meaning is that Adam's guilt is imputed to us, just as (in the same way)
Christ's righteousness is imputed to us.

If that were true and if you truly wanted to be consistent then you would have to adhere to the doctrine of universal salvation via imputation. You cannot take the first half of the verses Rom 5:17,18,19 and apply that as "universal" and then take the second half and not do likewise.

To do so must mean you throw logic out the window. Think about it.

Sorry, Skinski,

Your misspeak again.

1) The text is not paralleling the scope of justification, it is paralleling the cause of justification, the cross.
It is not paralleling to whom justification is applied, it is paralleling by whom justification was achieved.

It is paralleling the single actions of two men with the outcome on multiple men of their single actions.
You are misapplying the parallel to what it is not paralleling.

2) "which brings (not gives) life to all men" (Ro 5:18) is correctly understood "which brings life to all men who are justified, for what is stated elsewhere in the NT limits justification to those who believe in Jesus Christ.

What is flawed is your understanding of Ro 5:17-19.

Paul is making a comparison between the unrighteousness found in the carnal man of Adam and the righteousness found in the Spiritual man of Christ.

When Paul trighteousness is imputed it is not in the sense of some abstract provisional cloak as you believe, rather it is in God looking at the heart of an individual apart from their outward deeds.

Well, the "Spiritual man of Christ" is the man who is born again by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and whose righteousness is not the result of his deeds (works).

So it's good to see you come into agreement with what I presented to you previously in the following:

1Jn 3:5-10 - "He appeared so that he might take away sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. . .Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right (rather than sinful) is righteous, just as he is righteous (and not sinful). He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. . .No one who is born of God will continue to sin. . .this is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God" (1Jn 3:5-10)

1Jn 3:5-10 is in the context of 2:29-4:6, on the Christian life as sonship.

There are two tests for sonship (2:29-3:24):
1) righteousness (2:29-3:10a) and
2) love (3:10b-24).

1Jn 3:5-10 is not about being righteous by doing righteousness,

it is about doing righteousness because of our righteous standing (status) before God, who has given us the gift of righteousness (Ro 5:17).

Those who cease to habitually sin show they are God's children, inheriting the family trait of righteousness.

Righteousness is God's abundant provision as a gift, through faith, not through doing (Ro 4:22-25, 5:17),

just as Abrahams' righteousnes was credited to him by faith (Ro 4:22-24; Ge 15:6), and not earned by good deeds.

So righteousness is not achieved, it is received, and then what is within from God is acted out (1Jn 3:5-10).

God's gift of righteousness gives us the ability to do what is righteous.

Without his gift, we would remain unable to do so.

 

[zone]

Your position is flawed.

will you EVER stop diminishing THE LAW, SIN and CHRIST'S AGONY?

will you EVER get around to explaining Isaiah 53?


Isaiah 53
53 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


The Penal Substitution Theory: On the Mark

"Matthew 5:17-18 (NIV)
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Clearly, Jesus himself understood his work to be complimentary to what had already been established. His work was to be that which would fulfill the law and the prophets rather something entirely new and unrelated. No system examined in this series thus far has expressed atonement in terms that related it as a fulfillment of the Law and the prophets. The Recapitulation Theory disregards the Law almost entirely. The Ransom Theory has God paying off Satan, which is dramatically opposed to the Old Testament Law in which God himself receives (or rejects) man’s sin offering(s). The Moral Example Theory completely disregards the punitive nature of the Law; attempting to implement a works oriented salvation which disregards the penalty of former sins. The Mystical Theory, in addition to being just plain weird, offers absolutely no hint of vicarious atonement as outlined in the Law. And, the Necessary-Satisfaction Theory, while working off of good principles, still misappropriates certain legal aspects of atonement as depicted in the Law.

A good atonement theory must adequately illustrate how God’s program of redemption in the Law was systematically fulfilled and completed by the work of Christ! Otherwise, Christ cannot be understood as having fulfilled the Law.

Calvin’s theory connected the proper dots.

Details of Christ’s fulfillment of the Law will be examined over the next several posts, yet at this point it should at least be noted that what Jesus “fulfilled” was a substitutionary system of atonement: the sacrificial system of the Old Testament Law.

Overall, the Penal Substitution Theory can be understood as a more comprehensive fleshing-out of Anselm’s Satisfaction Theory. Anselm had the basic idea, but missed key points which Calvin properly illuminated.

The Essence of the Penal Substitution Theory
The Satisfaction Theory rightly articulated that a debt was owed to God by mankind. This debt required that satisfaction be attained by God. Yet, it incorrectly defined man’s offense as the defilement of God’s honor. While surely God’s honor became diminished in man’s eyes because of sin, it is not God’s honor which is in need of satisfaction according to the scriptures. Rather, it is God’s wrath for sin which is in need of satisfaction, as has already been illustrated. Jesus noted,

John 3:36 (NIV)
36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”

And Paul exclaimed,

Ephesians 2:3 (NIV)
3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.

Understanding the problem of sin properly- that it invokes God’s wrath- is key to understanding the nature of the satisfaction Jesus secured in the atonement. It was God’s wrath over sin which was in need of satisfaction. The atonement is oriented toward the securing of justice rather than honor. God’s law had been broken, invoking his wrath. And, being a just God, he demanded that payment be rendered for the broken Law. Such payment is not a mystery in the biblical narrative. God prescribed his punitive decision prior to the offense, clearly noting in the Garden of Eden that,

Genesis 2:17 (NIV)
17 … you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.”

With justice as a defining attribute of His nature, God cannot simply overlook one’s sin. Sin is an offense to his Law; an illegal (penal) action requiring a just sentence, which God prescribed to be death to the offender. What Jesus did on the cross was to quite literally apply the payment to God for the crimes of humanity.

Romans 6:23 (NIV)
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God had always upheld the wages of sin. They have never – nor will they ever change. And, God’s sense of justice demands that wrongdoing be punished and that the offended party (himself) be compensated. Jesus’ death on the cross accomplished both. The sins of man were paid vicariously (more on that in coming posts) and God’s justice was upheld.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (NIV)
21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

The atonement was penal in nature, because it provided the means of payment for the breaking of God’s Law which man had engaged. It was substitutionary in nature, because the payment was obtained vicariously by another: Christ.

Romans 3:22-26 (NIV)
22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished– 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

The substitutionary nature of Christ’s death will be examined in more detail in the following weeks. One cannot truly understand how Jesus fulfilled the Law without first understanding the nature of the Law itself. Suffice it to say at this point, however, that the Law provided a means of restitution for man’s sin through vicarious (substitutionary) means. God, in his graciousness, offered a system of atonement by which an acceptable animal could be sacrificed on man’s behalf, thus paying the required death sentence. Such is the nature of the Law; as it details the processes and requirements of such penal substitutions to be made. When Christ fulfilled the Law, he became the final perfect sacrifice for sin; rendering the Law utterly completed. Thus, “not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.”

The Penal Substitution Theory of atonement rightly identifies the critical components of redemption by faith in Christ Jesus. God’s wrath was invoked by man’s sin. His justice demanded restitution. In grace, he provided a substitutionary system of atonement, which Christ completed – once and for all.

Isaiah 53:5-6 (NIV)
5 … he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

The Penal Substitution Theory: On the Mark : ReturningKing.Com < click

 

[Elin]

will you EVER get around to explaining Isaiah 53?

Isaiah 53
53 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

The following seem pretty clear.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Sounds penal to me. . .as in penal substitutionary atonement.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

isaiah couldn't have stated penal substitutionary atonement any clearer.

 

[Skinski7]

Elin and Zone,


You both speak a lot of fluff. When all your rhetoric is stripped away you still have a Gospel which denies this...

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

The entire premise of the gospel you believe in is based on this judicial exchange whereby entrance into the kingdom is ensured whilst the believer is still wicked in their heart.

There is NO HEART PURITY in this gospel you preach. Penal Substitution completely eliminates it and you completely ignore the underlying error that lies at the root. I won't get caught in your games, I will pull back the curtain and reveal the wizard so to speak.

For example in you desperation to uphold this terrible doctrine with the Scripture you quote Isa 53:4...

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

I notice you don't highlight "we did esteem him" which puts into the context of "stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted." Isaiah is clearly teaching here that from the perspective of man it appeared that Jesus was being literally stricken and smitten of God. Isaiah does not say anywhere in Isa 53 that Jesus was punished by God as your substitute. You are reading that understanding into the text.

Jesus was offered on our behalf, He was not offered as a Penal Substitute. Jesus died on our behalf so that "we can die with Him" and He was also offered on our behalf as a sin offering who was without blemish as a propitiation that our PAST SINS be forgiven by His blood.

Penal Substitution leaves the heart of man in a wicked filthy state because it completely negates the crucifixion of the flesh with the passions and desires whereby the body of sin is done away with(Rom 6:6, Gal 5:24). The believer does not have to crucify the flesh with the passions and desires because the ongoing yielding to them (Jam 1:14-15) in rebellion to God has been CLOAKED by the PENAL SUBSTITUTION PROVISION. That is why this doctrine is DEADLY.

The root of your theology is in error. It is due to the these errors that so many professing Christian's are still in bondage to sin. They NEVER crucified the flesh with the passions and desires.

They still do this...

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Instead of this...

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.


They don't take the way of escape...

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

They don't take the way of escape and endure temptation because they have been taught "THEY DO NOT HAVE TO" because the penalty for all their sins (including future sins) has been paid. It is a lie. It is Satan's old lie of "ye can disobey God and not surely die" dressed up in fancy theology.

Strip all the fluff from your rhetoric and you have a false gospel that justifies ongoing sin. You won't say you "should" sin but you will say you "can" sin. This underlying fallacy is what you cannot address. You are forced to deny Gal 5:24 and teach that believers have not crucified the flesh with the PASSIONS AND DESIRES. Crucifixion of the flesh to you is purely FORENSIC. It is ABSTRACT. Satan has beguiled your mind and you are completely oblivious to it.

Hence questions like this will cause you great anguish...

"Does a serial murderer have to stop murdering people BEFORE God forgives them?"

The answer to that question is YES! The murderer MUST FORSAKE MURDERING. Yet your doctrine will force you to dance around that question instead of addressing it directly. If you answer it directly you basically expose your doctrine for what it is, "a defence of sin."

Look at what you said here...

The Penal Substitution Theory: On the Mark

"Matthew 5:17-18 (NIV)
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Clearly, Jesus himself understood his work to be complimentary to what had already been established. His work was to be that which would fulfill the law and the prophets rather something entirely new and unrelated. [Jesus fulfilled the law (Mat 5:17) and SO DO WE (Mat 5:20, Rom 8:4). Penal Substitution DENIES that WE FULFILL THE LAW because it teaches "Jesus fulfilled the law AS YOUR SUBSTITUTE so you don't have to." No system examined in this series thus far has expressed atonement in terms that related it as a fulfillment of the Law and the prophets. The Recapitulation Theory disregards the Law almost entirely. The Ransom Theory has God paying off Satan [It was Origen's View that philosophied that the ransom was paid to Satan, NOT RANSOM ITSELF, the Bible does not state that a ransom was paid to Satan, that is men adding their conjecture to the Bible], which is dramatically opposed to the Old Testament Law in which God himself receives (or rejects) man’s sin offering(s). The Moral Example Theory completely disregards the punitive nature of the Law; attempting to implement a works oriented salvation which disregards the penalty of former sins. The Mystical Theory, in addition to being just plain weird, offers absolutely no hint of vicarious atonement as outlined in the Law. And, the Necessary-Satisfaction Theory, while working off of good principles, still misappropriates certain legal aspects of atonement as depicted in the Law.

A good atonement theory must adequately illustrate how God’s program of redemption in the Law was systematically fulfilled and completed by the work of Christ! Otherwise, Christ cannot be understood as having fulfilled the Law.

Calvin’s theory connected the proper dots.

John Calvin is your teacher, not the Bible. You view the Bible through the lense of John Calvin.

Penal Substitution was NEVER TAUGHT until the Reformation. Penal Substitution is an INVENTION of the Reformation.

John Calvin DENIED "heart purity." Of course he would though, after all he supported the burning of heretics at the stake.

Here is what John Calvin taught...

I answer, that the grace which they call accepting, is nothing else than the free goodness with which the Father embraces us in Christ when he clothes us with the innocence of Christ, and accepts it as ours, so that in consideration of it he regards us as holy, pure, and innocent. For the righteousness of Christ (as it alone is perfect, so it alone can stand the scrutiny of God) must be sisted for us, and as a surety represent us judicially. Provided with this righteousness, we constantly obtain the remission of sins through faith. Our imperfection and impurity, covered with this purity, are not imputed but are as it were buried, so as not to come under judgment until the hour arrive when the old man being destroyed, and plainly extinguished in us, the divine goodness shall receive us into beatific peace with the new Adam, there to await the day of the Lord, on which, being clothed with incorruptible bodies, we shall be translated to the glory of the heavenly kingdom.

Institutes of the Christian Religion - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

All salvation was to him was a CLOAK FOR VICE. There was no REDEMPTION FROM THE BONDAGE OF SIN.

Modern Christianity for the most part has adopted this CLOAK FOR VICE. Redemption from iniquity has been thrown to the wind an in its place are doctrines which simply absolve sinners from the condemnation of ONGOING iniquity.

Hence whenever I ask a Pastor if a pornography addict has to forsake His sin in order to be forgiven by God they say NO! These Pastors do not see any connection whatsoever between SALVATION and BEING SET FREE FROM THE BONDAGE OF SIN. They believe in "freedom IN bondage" and "salvation IN sin." They are DECEIVED!

Look at this quote from John Calvin...

23. Hence also it is proved, that it is entirely by the intervention of Christ’s righteousness that we obtain justification before God. This is equivalent to saying that man is not just in himself, but that the righteousness of Christ is communicated to him by imputation, while he is strictly deserving of punishment. Thus vanishes the absurd dogma, that man is justified by faith, inasmuch as it brings him under the influence of the Spirit of God by whom he is rendered righteous. This is so repugnant to the above doctrine that it never can be reconciled with it.

Institutes of the Christian Religion - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

John Calvin found it "repugnant" that man would be rendered righteous by an active faith yielded to the influence of God.

Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

His doctrine replaced and active faith which cleanses the heart with a passive trust in a provision by which man was reckoned righteous whilst still defiled in the heart.

The bottom live of Calvinism is salvation via a JUDICIAL CLOAK. If you want to buy into that lie then that is your choice. The early church taught no such thing, not even close.


You say this...

Understanding the problem of sin properly- that it invokes God’s wrath- is key to understanding the nature of the satisfaction Jesus secured in the atonement. It was God’s wrath over sin which was in need of satisfaction. The atonement is oriented toward the securing of justice rather than honor. God’s law had been broken, invoking his wrath. And, being a just God, he demanded that payment be rendered for the broken Law. Such payment is not a mystery in the biblical narrative. God prescribed his punitive decision prior to the offense, clearly noting in the Garden of Eden that,

Where in the Bible is that taught? Find a single scripture or passage anywhere in the entire Bible where it teaches that the "wrath of God over sin needed to be satisified."

The Bible teaches that the wages of sin is death and that without the shedding of blood there is no remission. The Bible teaches that repentance is for remission also. Yet where does the Bible teach anything close that God's wrath over sin needed to be satisfied?

Many people believe that, yes, but you won't find it in the Bible. Your doctrine comes from Reformed Teachers AND NOT the Bible.

You say this...

God had always upheld the wages of sin. They have never – nor will they ever change. And, God’s sense of justice demands that wrongdoing be punished and that the offended party (himself) be compensated. Jesus’ death on the cross accomplished both. The sins of man were paid vicariously (more on that in coming posts) and God’s justice was upheld.

Wrong! God is willing to freely forgive sin if the sinner forsakes his unrighteousness and turns back to God.

Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
Eze 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

This parable of Jesus refutes the contention that "God's wrath must be satisfied."

Mat 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

If what you believe is true then why didn't Jesus teach it? The servant was freely forgiven, no one paid the debt on the behalf of the servant. When the servant did not forgive his own servant the debt was reinstated and then Jesus says, "So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses." The complete OPPOSITE of what you believe.

Yes it is true that the Bible teaches that "without the shedding of blood there is no remission" but nowhere does the Bible teach that the "shedding of blood" is to "satisfy the wrath of God." You get that dogma from men NOT from the Bible.

Who are you going to believe? Jesus or John Calvin?

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The wages of sin is death indeed. God's gift to us is eternal life THROUGH JESUS CHRIST. Not through Jesus being a "wrath substitute" which is found nowhere in the Bible, no, through the blood of Jesus Christ being offerered WITHOUT SPOT on our behalf as well as through the Spirit of life IN HIM (Rom 8:2, Gal 2:20).

It's a shame that you resort to the "cut and pasting" of CONJECTURE AND RHETORIC from Reformed Teachers instead of using the plain Scripture.

 

[Skinski7]

Look at the word wizardry there...

Sorry, Skinski,

Your misspeak again.

1) The text is not paralleling the scope of justification, it is paralleling the cause of justification, the cross.
It is not paralleling to whom justification is applied, it is paralleling by whom justification was achieved.

It is paralleling the single actions of two men with the outcome on multiple men of their single actions.
You are misapplying the parallel to what it is not paralleling.

2) "which brings (not gives) life to all men" (Ro 5:18) is correctly understood "which brings life to all men who are justified, for what is stated elsewhere in the NT limits justification to those who believe in Jesus Christ.

What is flawed is your understanding of Ro 5:17-19.

Firstly you do not address how your doctrine is inconsistent in how you apply the sin of Adam as "imputed to all men" yet deny that the righteousness of Christ is "imputed to all men." Hence earlier you added the word "brings" as an antidote to the logical implication of universal salvation.

Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men,
so also the result of one act of righteousness (the cross) was justification (righteousness) that brings life for all men.

Secondly your word wizardry is just a play at semantics. The text is paralleling two kinds of man.

The first is the natural man who disobeyed God in yielding to carnal desire and wrought death. This man is personified in the literal example of Adam.

The second is the spiritual man who yields to the Spirit of God and brings life. This man is personified in the literal example of Jesus Christ.

It is through Adam that death is wrought. It is through Jesus Christ that life is wrought. Hence we are set free from the law of sin and death by the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ. God has given us this road to life as a gift.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Not a gift of righteousness in the sense of a cloak for ongoing filthiness as the foolish doctrines of men teach. No way!

A gift of righteousness by which we are purified inwardly whereby God writes the law of love on our hearts through the washing of regeneration. REAL RIGHTEOUSNESS!

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Justified by His grace according to His mercy!

Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Not an imputation of righteousness that cloaks ongoing rebellion. No! A righteousness imputed on those who WALK IN THE STEPS OF FAITH.

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

A faith that works by love.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Love fulfills the law.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Abraham was justified because...

Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

It was not written for his sake alone but for us too. God reckons us righteous by faith. An obedient working faith like Abraham had.

Abraham had Obedient Faith
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Abraham walked in the Steps of Faith
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Abraham did the works of Faith
Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.


All those Scriptures that the false teachers will NEVER SHOW YOU when they speak of this false doctrine of the "imputed righteousness of Christ." They cannot refer to those Scriptures because they show that it is a KIND OF FAITH that God IMPUTES AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. God does not impute the "abstract righteousness of Christ" to "your account." That is a false doctrine.

Paul is not speaking of this false doctrine in Rom 5:17-19. That doctrine of a forensic righteousness while you remain wicked is demonic and induces an assurance of salvation whilst still in sin.

Satan is a master theologian who has deceived many people! Don't be one of them.

 

[Skinski7]

Again I will also make it very clear when Paul teaches that "it is not of works" he is speaking that righteousness does not come from obeying rules and regulations, hence righteousness is not of the law.

Righteousness is of faith because faith works by love. It is inward purity of heart which produces the fruit of righteous conduct. This is true righteousness.

Yielding to the law in order to establish righteousness is a fallacy because the law can only regulate the outer man and does not impinge on the heart. The Pharisees were an example of this who OUTWARDLY had a "form of righteousness" but were INWARDLY defiled. They sought their righteousness in the law as opposed to purity of heart. This is why Jesus admonished them with these words...

Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.


When Paul said...

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

...the works he is referring to is the works of the law. Salvation is by the grace of God which teaches us how to live...

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Notice the "grace of God that brings salvation" (Tit 2:11) and "we are saved by grace" (Eph 2:8).

This grace that brings salvation (that we are saved by) TEACHES US to "denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world."

Faith is the YIELDING to this grace. Read Hebrews 11 and in every example you will see that faith is described as ACTIVE TRUSTING AND YIELDING TO GOD. Hence...

We receive grace for obedience.
Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

The grace in which WE STAND is accessed via faith.
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

It is faith that purifies the heart.
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Obeying the truth by the Spirit also purifies the heart.
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Therefore faith and obedience is really the same thing!
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Thus God is the Author of the Salvation of the Obedient.
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


The disobedient will be rejected.
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

 

[psychomom]

23. Hence also it is proved, that it is entirely by the intervention of Christ’s righteousness that we obtain justification before God. This is equivalent to saying that man is not just in himself, but that the righteousness of Christ is communicated to him by imputation, while he is strictly deserving of punishment. Thus vanishes the absurd dogma, that man is justified by faith, inasmuch as it brings him under the influence of the Spirit of God by whom he is rendered righteous. This is so repugnant to the above doctrine that it never can be reconciled with it.

umm..Scott...pretty sure you missed the whole meaning of the above...

 

[psychomom]

God is willing to freely forgive sin if the sinner forsakes his unrighteousness and turns back to God.

yeah...you coulda just said that.

also, ewww.

 

[SarahM777]

Elin and Zone,

I notice you don't highlight "we did esteem him" which puts into the context of "stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted." Isaiah is clearly teaching here that from the perspective of man it appeared that Jesus was being literally stricken and smitten of God. Isaiah does not say anywhere in Isa 53 that Jesus was punished by God as your substitute. You are reading that understanding into the text.

Jesus was offered on our behalf, He was not offered as a Penal Substitute. Jesus died on our behalf so that "we can die with Him" and He was also offered on our behalf as a sin offering who was without blemish as a propitiation that our PAST SINS be forgiven by His blood.

Skinski,

Yes Isaiah does state that.

You left out a few verses yourself

[SUP]5 [/SUP]But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]By oppression[SUP][a][/SUP] and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.[SUP][b][/SUP]
[SUP]9 [/SUP]He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[SUP][c][/SUP] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life[SUP][d][/SUP] and be satisfied[SUP][e][/SUP];
by his knowledge[SUP][f][/SUP] my righteous servant will justifymany,
and he will bear their iniquities.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[SUP][g][/SUP]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[SUP][h][/SUP]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.


You left out the next sentence which does say the punishment that brings us peace was upon Him. And you also left out verse 8 and 10.

 

[SarahM777]

Skinski,

For your own sake can you answer this Do you have the peace that passes all understanding and do you have joy?

 

[zone]

Zone,
You both speak a lot of fluff.

ya....for you, desario and the unbelieving jews Isaiah 53 is fluff.

When all your rhetoric is stripped away you still have a Gospel which denies this...

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

rubbish.
as usual.

more of your narcissistic fake gospel.
more of your willfully sinful projecting.

i would never deny the Gospel of Jesus Christ which saved me; or that He redeemed me from all iniquity; that He purified me for Himself, or that His Spirit in me made me zealous to do good works.

oh look - that sounds just like this:

2 Timothy 3
10You, however, have followed my teaching, my conduct, my aim in life, my faith, my patience, my love, my steadfastness, 11my persecutions and sufferings that happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, and at Lystra—which persecutions I endured; yet from them all the Lord rescued me. 12Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whoma you learned it 15and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of Godb may be competent, equipped for every good work.


in your rabid lust to tear limb from limb all who have gone before you; all who today profess Jesus Christ is Lord (including His under-shepherds to your disgrace and shame); and presumably all who will come after you, you have willfully sought any corruption of the offense of the Cross.

you don't understand the Atonement so this won't make any sense to you. it will offend you. it offends you greatly!

isolate this passage in the Book about the sacrificial system. twist it - i want to see you do it.

here from the Book that tells about JESUS - Whom you regard as little more than a substitute for a bull or ram.

Hebrews 10:14
New International Version (©1984)
because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

New Living Translation (©2007)
For by that one offering he forever made perfect those who are being made holy.

English Standard Version (©2001)
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are sanctified.

International Standard Version (©2012)
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
For by one offering he has perfected those who are sanctified by him for eternity.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
With one sacrifice he accomplished the work of setting them apart for God forever.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
For by one offering he has perfected forever them that are sanctified.

American King James Version
For by one offering he has perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

American Standard Version
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For by one oblation he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Darby Bible Translation
For by one offering he has perfected in perpetuity the sanctified.

English Revised Version
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Webster's Bible Translation
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Weymouth New Testament
For by a single offering He has for ever completed the blessing for those whom He is setting free from sin.

World English Bible
For by one offering he has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

Young's Literal Translation
for by one offering he hath perfected to the end those sanctified;

The parties thus perfected or completely justified, are τους ἁγιαζομενους tous hagiazomenous, the "sanctified." Ἁγιαζω Hagiazō, however, besides the general sense of "sanctify" has in this Epistle, like τελειοω teleioō, its sacrificial sense of cleansing from guilt. "Whether ceremonially, as under the Levitical dispensation; Hebrews 9:13; comp, Leviticus 16:19; or really and truly, by the offering of the body of Christ; Hebrews 10:10, Hebrews 10:14, Hebrews 10:29; compare Hebrews 10:2, and Hebrews 2:11; Hebrews 9:14." - Parkhurst's Greek Lexicon. The meaning, then, may be, that they who are purged or cleansed by this sacrifice, in other words, those to whom its virtue is applied, are perfectly justified.

"By his one oblation he hath provided effectually for the perfect justification unto eternal life, of all those who should ever receive his atonement, by faith springing from regeneration, and evidenced 'by the sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience,' and who were thus set apart and consecrated to the service of God."

oh that sounds like this:

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. [/QUOTE]


He hath perfected forever (τετελείωκεν εἰς τὸ διηνεκές)

Note the continued emphasis upon the τελείωσις perfection. Comp. Hebrews 7:11, Hebrews 7:19; Hebrews 9:9; Hebrews 10:1; Hebrews 12:2. No more sacrifices are needed. The reign of the Great High Priest is not to be interrupted by the duty of sacrifice.


14. For-The sacrifice being "for ever" in its efficacy (Heb 10:12) needs no renewal.

them that are sanctified-rather as Greek, "them that are being sanctified." The sanctification (consecration to God) of the elect (1Pe 1:2) believers is perfect in Christ once for all (see on [2578]Heb 10:10). (Contrast the law, Heb 7:19; 9:9; 10:1). The development of that sanctification is progressive.

any contracdiction with this?

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. [/QUOTE]


only for some guy who doesn't understand Who Christ was, what He did in His life, what He accomplished on the Cross, what the new birth is and does.

that guy just knows he quit some gross sin a year ago and is now pure because he only looks up certain words in the greek. he only seeks to destroy the works of other men he hates, by going to

that guy is like all the other superifical white-washed tombs who don't understand this at all:

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for[/B] every good work.

the guy who doesn't know what justification means.
doesn't know what training is for
doesn't need reproof
no need of correction
is already competent
is not fully equipped for every good work since he has none.

the only work he thinks he has is a superficial wiping of his sinful heart by the dirty rag of his own righteousness. that rag is all he has, since he denies the Lord Our Righteousness.

he doesn't understand what any of that means.

he doesn't know what consecration is since he doesn't know what service is, since he is only made to tear down the body and not to edify or build up. he is completely deluded, just as John said he would be. and his folly is evident to ALL.
but he misunderstands the reproof...he thinks it is evidence of persecution for his crying from the wilderness.
he uses this identification with John the baptist because he is exactly there - yet to know if Jesus was the One.

unlike John, this guy doesn't know anything about himself decreasing so Jesus may increase. he doesn't know why Jesus must increase.

 

[zone]

Skinski you have an unanswered question here:

Skinski, were you born with the same nature that unfallen Adam had?

 

[SarahM777]

Skinski,

For your own sake can you answer this Do you have the peace that passes all understanding and do you have joy?

Zone,

He has never answered this one either.

 

[loveme1]

Again I will also make it very clear when Paul teaches that "it is not of works" he is speaking that righteousness does not come from obeying rules and regulations, hence righteousness is not of the law.

Righteousness is of faith because faith works by love. It is inward purity of heart which produces the fruit of righteous conduct. This is true righteousness.

Yielding to the law in order to establish righteousness is a fallacy because the law can only regulate the outer man and does not impinge on the heart. The Pharisees were an example of this who OUTWARDLY had a "form of righteousness" but were INWARDLY defiled. They sought their righteousness in the law as opposed to purity of heart. This is why Jesus admonished them with these words...

Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.


When Paul said...

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

...the works he is referring to is the works of the law. Salvation is by the grace of God which teaches us how to live...

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Notice the "grace of God that brings salvation" (Tit 2:11) and "we are saved by grace" (Eph 2:8).

This grace that brings salvation (that we are saved by) TEACHES US to "denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world."

Faith is the YIELDING to this grace. Read Hebrews 11 and in every example you will see that faith is described as ACTIVE TRUSTING AND YIELDING TO GOD. Hence...

We receive grace for obedience.
Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

The grace in which WE STAND is accessed via faith.
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

It is faith that purifies the heart.
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Obeying the truth by the Spirit also purifies the heart.
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Therefore faith and obedience is really the same thing!
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Thus God is the Author of the Salvation of the Obedient.
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


The disobedient will be rejected.
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

So then:

Isaiah 53

Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see hisseed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Hebrews 10

For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance againmade of sins every year. 4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21And having an high priest over the house of God; 22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised 24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; 33Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.34For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. 35Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. 36For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

I believe you are trying to provoke us to good works Skinski.

 

[zone]

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:17
For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

Romans 5:21
so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:12
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.

Romans 7:4
So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.

Romans 7:6
But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Romans 8:2
because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 8:12
Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation--but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it.


oh look!
passages none of us have seen before!
and not one of us but Skinski knows what they mean in real life!

 

[psychomom]

I believe you are trying to provoke us to good works Skinski.

Well, no, actually he is not, not the good works spoken of in the Bible.
Not the good works of the believer, which are done in this way:

12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work
for His good pleasure. (Phil 2)

He is saying nothing more (and nothing less) than this:

God is willing to freely forgive sin if the sinner forsakes his unrighteousness and turns back to God.

Not much, if anything, about the Work of GOD.
Just 'me, me, me'.
'My works; My obedience; My righteousness.'

Denigrating the Cross of Christ; it's just about meaningless to him.
It's not about what the Lord Jesus accomplished for the believer;
it's about what the believer must do 'for God'.
AS IF.

Again...eww.

 

[SarahM777]

John 3

[SUP]31 [/SUP]The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. [SUP]32 [/SUP]He testifies to what he has seen and heard,but no one accepts his testimony. [SUP]33 [/SUP]Whoever has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. [SUP]34 [/SUP]For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God[SUP][i][/SUP]gives the Spirit without limit. [SUP]35 [/SUP]The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.



Romans 5

Therefore, since we have been justified through faith,we[SUP][a][/SUP] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,[SUP]2 [/SUP]through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we[SUP][b][/SUP] boast in the hope of the glory of God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Not only so, but we[SUP][c][/SUP] also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; [SUP]4 [/SUP]perseverance, character; and character, hope. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him![SUP]10 [/SUP]For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life![SUP]11 [/SUP]Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Romans 4

[SUP]13 [/SUP]It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.[SUP]14[/SUP]For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless,[SUP]15 [/SUP]because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.[SUP]17 [/SUP]As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.”[SUP][c][/SUP] He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”[SUP][d][/SUP] [SUP]19 [/SUP]Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God,[SUP]21 [/SUP]being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. [SUP]22 [/SUP]This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” [SUP]23 [/SUP]The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, [SUP]24 [/SUP]but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. [SUP]25 [/SUP]He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

 

[zone]

The text is paralleling two kinds of man.

The first is the natural man who disobeyed God in yielding to carnal desire and wrought death. This man is personified in the literal example of Adam.

The second is the spiritual man who yields to the Spirit of God and brings life. This man is personified in the literal example of Jesus Christ.

.................

see folks?
the man Jesus is an example of how not to be like the example of the man adam.

if you want to know how it's done, follow the spiritual man Skinski, who is pure in heart and without sin.
you can do it!

you might have to die on a literal Cross, but maybe Skinski can take your place, since he is without spot or blemish.
he wasn't declared righteous (justified) by God, since God is not able or willing to be both Just and the Justifier of the ungodly.

you must be without sin before He will save you.

 

[SarahM777]

Ephesians 2

2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, [SUP]2 [/SUP]in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. [SUP]3 [/SUP]All of us also lived among them at one time,gratifying the cravings of our flesh[SUP][a][/SUP] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. [SUP]4[/SUP]But because of his great love for us,God, who is rich in mercy, [SUP]5 [/SUP]made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,[SUP]7 [/SUP]in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. [SUP]8 [/SUP]For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— [SUP]9 [/SUP]not by works, so that no one can boast.[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

1 Thessalonians 1

[SUP]4 [/SUP]For we know, brothers and sisters[SUP][b][/SUP] loved by God, that he has chosen you, [SUP]5 [/SUP]because our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake. [SUP]6 [/SUP]You became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you welcomed the message in the midst of severe suffering with the joy given by the Holy Spirit. [SUP]7 [/SUP]And so you became a model to all the believers in Macedonia and Achaia. [SUP]8 [/SUP]The Lord’s message rang out from you not only in Macedonia and Achaia—your faith in God has become known everywhere. Therefore we do not need to say anything about it, [SUP]9 [/SUP]for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, [SUP]10 [/SUP]and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

Romans 1

[SUP]18 [/SUP]The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness,[SUP]19 [/SUP]since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse

 

[zone]

Jews recognize two kinds of "sin," offenses against other people, and offenses against God. Offenses against God may be understood as violation of a contract (the covenant between God and the Children of Israel). Since the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, Jews have believed that right action (as opposed to right belief) is the way for a person to atone for one's sins. Midrash Avot de Rabbi Natan states the following:

One time, when Rabban Yochanan ben Zakkai was walking in Jerusalem with Rabbi Yehosua, they arrived at where the Temple now stood in ruins. "Woe to us" cried Rabbi Yehosua, "for this house where atonement was made for Israel's sins now lies in ruins!" Answered Rabban Yochanan, "We have another, equally important source of atonement, the practice of gemilut hasadim ("loving kindness"), as it is stated "I desire loving kindness and not sacrifice" (Hosea 6:6).

In Judaism all human beings are believed to have free will and can choose the path in life that they will take. It does not teach that choosing good is impossible - only at times more difficult. There is almost always a "way back" if a person wills it. (Although texts mention certain categories for whom the way back will be exceedingly hard, such as the slanderer, the habitual gossip, and the malicious person)

Jewish views on sin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia < click