The Blood of Christ: "Ransom" NOT "Penal Substitution"
- Thread starter Skinski7
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Jesus Christ is my leader.
I know you want to imply I have some other leader so you can try create some "cult" strawman. That is all you do. In absence of any application of what the Scriptures actually teach you turn to ad-hominem. It is a good thing you do this for it reveals the utter lack of a foundation for the doctrines you believe.
You cannot appeal to the Bible to support it because I am aware of how the particular proof texts are twisted.
What does being a servant of righteousness involve?
Simple!
Yielding to God from the heart. That's it.
The Spirit leads and I follow.
I am dead to the world by the body of Christ who saved me from my foolish ways.
I know you want to imply I have some other leader so you can try create some "cult" strawman. That is all you do. In absence of any application of what the Scriptures actually teach you turn to ad-hominem. It is a good thing you do this for it reveals the utter lack of a foundation for the doctrines you believe.
You cannot appeal to the Bible to support it because I am aware of how the particular proof texts are twisted.
What does being a servant of righteousness involve?
Simple!
Yielding to God from the heart. That's it.
The Spirit leads and I follow.
I am dead to the world by the body of Christ who saved me from my foolish ways.
Ephesians 4
30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. 32Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.
nah...
that's not you and your friends.
keep trying.
30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. 32Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.
nah...
that's not you and your friends.
keep trying.
Actually the Bible teaches that it is faith that purifies the heart.
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
It is in the yielding to God that heart purity is produced in us. We don't purify our hearts in the sense that it is something we alone can do. It is the result of a yielding to God, thit is why salvation is by grace through faith and not of ourselves. A human being left themselves can only stumble around in darkness for the flesh is but a body of passion, if left alone it's just a beast.
God draws us to Him and we have to yield in order for salvation to be wrought. God is the author and we are the parchment so to speak. God is the potter and we are the clay. He moulds us for he works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure, yet we have to "work out" our salvation in fear and trembling. The result is a pure soul.
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
So do WE purify our souls? Yes we do, but in the sense that we do it in yielding to God through the Spirit. God give us the talents but we have to invest them.
Look at this passage...
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
God gives us the power. Without God we would be nothing, it is only because of the will of God that anyone can be saved.
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
It is in the yielding to God that heart purity is produced in us. We don't purify our hearts in the sense that it is something we alone can do. It is the result of a yielding to God, thit is why salvation is by grace through faith and not of ourselves. A human being left themselves can only stumble around in darkness for the flesh is but a body of passion, if left alone it's just a beast.
God draws us to Him and we have to yield in order for salvation to be wrought. God is the author and we are the parchment so to speak. God is the potter and we are the clay. He moulds us for he works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure, yet we have to "work out" our salvation in fear and trembling. The result is a pure soul.
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
So do WE purify our souls? Yes we do, but in the sense that we do it in yielding to God through the Spirit. God give us the talents but we have to invest them.
Look at this passage...
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
God gives us the power. Without God we would be nothing, it is only because of the will of God that anyone can be saved.
But salvation, to you, depends on a person ceasing all sin, being perfect therefore according to the law. As this must take place before salvation occurs, it must take place minus the Spirit. I am confused by your responses, but no need to reply, Ive read enough
BTW
I assume, as you refuse to reply to my oft asked question, yhou don't know if you lead more of a sinless life than I, nor whether you therefore live a holier life than me
That means, although you believe I live under a licence to sin, as far as you are concerned I may well be as sinless as you are-or as sinful take your pick
BTW
I assume, as you refuse to reply to my oft asked question, yhou don't know if you lead more of a sinless life than I, nor whether you therefore live a holier life than me
That means, although you believe I live under a licence to sin, as far as you are concerned I may well be as sinless as you are-or as sinful take your pick
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I don't know how you live your life and like I said earlier it is not the issue with me. I am addressing your DOCTRINE. You keep appealing to your "perfection" strawman when you say things like this... "being perfect therefore according to the law."
Perfect in faith! Perfect in love. Not perfect in accordance with the law. I have never said that and never will. The law addresses the outer man only, faith addresses the inner man. God looks at the inner man.
David violated the letter of the law by eating the shewbread, did he sin? Sin is transgression of the law right? How about the priests working on the Sabbath? Here is what Jesus said...
Mat 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
Mat 12:4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
Mat 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
Mat 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
Mat 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
You see the law was made for man not man for the law. The law is but a mere shadow of love. Love is greater than the law. Therefore if you truly love the law is written in your heart and not on tablets of stone. It is very simple.
The faith you contend for is not the faith once delivered to the saints. You contend for the doctrines of Martin Luther and the Reformation which the early church clearly did not teach.
Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Perfect in faith! Perfect in love. Not perfect in accordance with the law. I have never said that and never will. The law addresses the outer man only, faith addresses the inner man. God looks at the inner man.
David violated the letter of the law by eating the shewbread, did he sin? Sin is transgression of the law right? How about the priests working on the Sabbath? Here is what Jesus said...
Mat 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
Mat 12:4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
Mat 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
Mat 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
Mat 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
You see the law was made for man not man for the law. The law is but a mere shadow of love. Love is greater than the law. Therefore if you truly love the law is written in your heart and not on tablets of stone. It is very simple.
The faith you contend for is not the faith once delivered to the saints. You contend for the doctrines of Martin Luther and the Reformation which the early church clearly did not teach.
Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
you Pharisees are so reckless with your accusations.
and i know which every one of you are by the repeated use of this word as accusations against Christians:
aselgeia: licentiousness, wantonness
Original Word: ἀσέλγεια, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: aselgeia
Phonetic Spelling: (as-elg'-i-a)
Short Definition: wantonness, lewdness
Definition: (outrageous conduct, conduct shocking to public decency, a wanton violence), wantonness, lewdness.
766 asélgeia (from aselgēs/"brutal") – properly, violent spite which rejects restraint and indulges in lawless insolence (wanton caprice).
[This is likewise the meaning of 766 /asélgeia in classical Greek (WS, 110).]
and i know which every one of you are by the repeated use of this word as accusations against Christians:
aselgeia: licentiousness, wantonness
Original Word: ἀσέλγεια, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: aselgeia
Phonetic Spelling: (as-elg'-i-a)
Short Definition: wantonness, lewdness
Definition: (outrageous conduct, conduct shocking to public decency, a wanton violence), wantonness, lewdness.
766 asélgeia (from aselgēs/"brutal") – properly, violent spite which rejects restraint and indulges in lawless insolence (wanton caprice).
[This is likewise the meaning of 766 /asélgeia in classical Greek (WS, 110).]
Sorry Skinski, but:
Sin is the transgressio0n of the law1John3:4
If you state all sin must cease before a person can become a Christian, you are stating that the law must be perfectly upheld for a person to become a Christian, for scripture gives the definition of sin
Uncomfortable for your theology maybe, but the truth
Sin is the transgressio0n of the law1John3:4
If you state all sin must cease before a person can become a Christian, you are stating that the law must be perfectly upheld for a person to become a Christian, for scripture gives the definition of sin
Uncomfortable for your theology maybe, but the truth
You do not understand 1Jn 3:7.
"He appeared so that he might take away sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. . .Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right (rather than sinful) is righteous, just as he is righteous (and not sinful). He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. . .No one who is born of God will continue to sin. . .this is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God" (1Jn 3:5-10)
1Jn 3:5-10 is in the context of 2:29-4:6, on the Christian life as sonship.
There are two tests for sonship (2:29-3:24):
1) righteousness (2:29-3:10a) and
2) love (3:10b-24).
1Jn 3:5-10 is not about being righteous by doing righteousness,
it is about doing righteousness because of our righteous standing (status) before God.
Those who cease to habitually sin show they are God's children, inheriting the family trait of righteousness.
That is exactly what it is.
You likewise do not understand Ro 5:17-19.
"if by the trespass of the one man death reigned through that one man,
how much more will those who receive God's. . .gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men,
so also the result of one act of righteousness (the cross) was justification that brings life for all men.
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." (Ro 5:18-19)
In these verses, Paul is paralleling the trespass of Adam with the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
Note that he says in v.18 that we are all condemned by Adam's trespass,
just as we are made righteous by Christ's obedience (not by our own obedience).
Righteousness is a gift of God (v.17), it is not achieved, it is only received, and acted out (1Jn 3:5-10).
Christ was a second Adam (v.14; 1Co 15:45).
In one man we were made sinners, just as in one man we are made righteous.
Paul is drawing clear parallelisms of imputation in vv.18-19,
so that the last half of each verse gives the true meaning of the first half of each verse.
In neither half of the parallel does the outcome (guilt, righteousness) have anything to do with what men did, or our involvement would not be of the same nature, and the parallelism would be destroyed.
The clear meaning is that Adam's guilt is imputed to us, just as (in the same way)
Christ's righteousness is imputed to us.
So righteousness is a gift of God (v.17), it is not achieved, it is only received, and acted out
(1Jn 3:5-10).
Are you talking to me?
You must have me confused with someone else.
Where have I used those Scriptures?
"You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures." (Mt 22:29)
"Go and learn what (1Jn 3:5-10; Ro 5:17-19) means." (Mt 9:13)
"He appeared so that he might take away sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. . .Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right (rather than sinful) is righteous, just as he is righteous (and not sinful). He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. . .No one who is born of God will continue to sin. . .this is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God" (1Jn 3:5-10)
1Jn 3:5-10 is in the context of 2:29-4:6, on the Christian life as sonship.
There are two tests for sonship (2:29-3:24):
1) righteousness (2:29-3:10a) and
2) love (3:10b-24).
1Jn 3:5-10 is not about being righteous by doing righteousness,
it is about doing righteousness because of our righteous standing (status) before God.
Those who cease to habitually sin show they are God's children, inheriting the family trait of righteousness.
That is exactly what it is.
You likewise do not understand Ro 5:17-19.
"if by the trespass of the one man death reigned through that one man,
how much more will those who receive God's. . .gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men,
so also the result of one act of righteousness (the cross) was justification that brings life for all men.
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." (Ro 5:18-19)
In these verses, Paul is paralleling the trespass of Adam with the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
Note that he says in v.18 that we are all condemned by Adam's trespass,
just as we are made righteous by Christ's obedience (not by our own obedience).
Righteousness is a gift of God (v.17), it is not achieved, it is only received, and acted out (1Jn 3:5-10).
Christ was a second Adam (v.14; 1Co 15:45).
In one man we were made sinners, just as in one man we are made righteous.
Paul is drawing clear parallelisms of imputation in vv.18-19,
so that the last half of each verse gives the true meaning of the first half of each verse.
In neither half of the parallel does the outcome (guilt, righteousness) have anything to do with what men did, or our involvement would not be of the same nature, and the parallelism would be destroyed.
The clear meaning is that Adam's guilt is imputed to us, just as (in the same way)
Christ's righteousness is imputed to us.
So righteousness is a gift of God (v.17), it is not achieved, it is only received, and acted out
(1Jn 3:5-10).
Are you talking to me?
You must have me confused with someone else.
Where have I used those Scriptures?
"You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures." (Mt 22:29)
"Go and learn what (1Jn 3:5-10; Ro 5:17-19) means." (Mt 9:13)
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That is exactly what it is.
You do not understand Ro 3:21-22 and Ro 5:17-19.
Ro 3:21-22 - "Now a righteousness from God, apart from lawkeeping (our own doing) has been made known.
This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ (not by doing) to all who believe (not all who do).
Ro 3:17-19 - "if by the trespass of the one man death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of. . .the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men,
so also the result of one act of righteousness (the cross) was justification (righteousness) that brings life for all men.
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man (not through my own obedience) the many will be made righteous." (Ro 5:17-19)
In these verses, Paul is paralleling the trespass of Adam with the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
Note that he says in v.18 that we are all condemned by Adam's trespass,
just as we are made righteous by Christ's obedience (not by our own obedience).
Christ was a second Adam (v.14; 1Co 15:45).
In one man we were made sinners, just as in one man we are made righteous.
Paul is drawing clear parallelisms of imputation in vv.18-19.
In both parallels, the outcome (guilt, righteousness) has nothing to do with what men did, or our involvement would not be of the same nature, and the parallelism would be destroyed.
The clear meaning is that Adam's guilt is imputed to us, just as (in the same way)
Christ's righteousness is imputed to us.
So. . .God's abundant provision is the gift of righteousness (v.17).
Righteousness is not achieved, it is only received, and acted out.
You likewise do not understand 1Jn 3:5-10
1Jn 3:5-10 - "He appeared so that he might take away sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. . .Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right (rather than sinful) is righteous, just as he is righteous (and not sinful). He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. . .No one who is born of God will continue to sin. . .this is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God" (1Jn 3:5-10)
1Jn 3:5-10 is in the context of 2:29-4:6, on the Christian life as sonship.
There are two tests for sonship (2:29-3:24):
1) righteousness (2:29-3:10a) and
2) love (3:10b-24).
1Jn 3:5-10 is not about being righteous by doing righteousness,
it is about doing righteousness because of our righteous standing (status) before God, who has given us the gift of rigihteousness (Ro 5:17).
Those who cease to habitually sin show they are God's children, inheriting the family trait of righteousness.
Righteousness is God's abundant provision as a gift, through faith, not through doing.
Righteousness is not achieved, it is received, and then what is within from God is acted out (1Jn 3:5-10).
So, do these Scriptures make clear the Biblical nature of righteousness, that is is received, and not achieved?
You do not understand Ro 3:21-22 and Ro 5:17-19.
Ro 3:21-22 - "Now a righteousness from God, apart from lawkeeping (our own doing) has been made known.
This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ (not by doing) to all who believe (not all who do).
Ro 3:17-19 - "if by the trespass of the one man death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of. . .the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men,
so also the result of one act of righteousness (the cross) was justification (righteousness) that brings life for all men.
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man (not through my own obedience) the many will be made righteous." (Ro 5:17-19)
In these verses, Paul is paralleling the trespass of Adam with the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
Note that he says in v.18 that we are all condemned by Adam's trespass,
just as we are made righteous by Christ's obedience (not by our own obedience).
Christ was a second Adam (v.14; 1Co 15:45).
In one man we were made sinners, just as in one man we are made righteous.
Paul is drawing clear parallelisms of imputation in vv.18-19.
In both parallels, the outcome (guilt, righteousness) has nothing to do with what men did, or our involvement would not be of the same nature, and the parallelism would be destroyed.
The clear meaning is that Adam's guilt is imputed to us, just as (in the same way)
Christ's righteousness is imputed to us.
So. . .God's abundant provision is the gift of righteousness (v.17).
Righteousness is not achieved, it is only received, and acted out.
You likewise do not understand 1Jn 3:5-10
1Jn 3:5-10 - "He appeared so that he might take away sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. . .Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right (rather than sinful) is righteous, just as he is righteous (and not sinful). He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. . .No one who is born of God will continue to sin. . .this is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God" (1Jn 3:5-10)
1Jn 3:5-10 is in the context of 2:29-4:6, on the Christian life as sonship.
There are two tests for sonship (2:29-3:24):
1) righteousness (2:29-3:10a) and
2) love (3:10b-24).
1Jn 3:5-10 is not about being righteous by doing righteousness,
it is about doing righteousness because of our righteous standing (status) before God, who has given us the gift of rigihteousness (Ro 5:17).
Those who cease to habitually sin show they are God's children, inheriting the family trait of righteousness.
Righteousness is God's abundant provision as a gift, through faith, not through doing.
Righteousness is not achieved, it is received, and then what is within from God is acted out (1Jn 3:5-10).
So, do these Scriptures make clear the Biblical nature of righteousness, that is is received, and not achieved?
Elin,
Your position is flawed.
For example you appeal to Rom 5:17-19 in the context of the Augustinian view of Original Sin, ie. inherited guilt, inherited corrupted constitution.
Thus you say this...
If that were true and if you truly wanted to be consistent then you would have to adhere to the doctrine of universal salvation via imputation. You cannot take the first half of the verses Rom 5:17,18,19 and apply that as "universal" and then take the second half and not do likewise.
To do so must mean you throw logic out the window. Think about it.
Paul is making a comparison between the unrighteousness found in the carnal man of Adam and the righteousness found in the Spiritual man of Christ.
When Paul teaches that righteousness is imputed it is not in the sense of some abstract provisional cloak as you believe, rather it is in God looking at the heart of an individual apart from their outward deeds.
God does not count one righteous based on "outward perfection" but rather on "heart purity." "Heart Purity" is found through "Abiding in Christ." Hence righteousness is via the faith of Jesus Christ or even by faith "in" Jesus Christ (so long as one is abiding.)
There is no such thing as righteousness being imputed upon those who are still in rebellion. That is a satanic deception ("ye shall not surely die") wrought in the mind of Martin Luther which took off with the reformation. Martin Luther completely disconnected "manifest deeds" from "imputed righteousness" and that is the reason why he rejected the book of James and called it a book of straw.
What James did is clearly elaborated on the connection between "faith" and "works" in the sense that "genuine faith" is ACTIVE as opposed to being PASSIVE BELIEF, hence...
Jam 2:20-26
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Martin Luther's doctrine of "faith alone" (ie. trust in Christ alone) was in conflict with what James wrote and thus instead of Martin Luther refining his doctrinal error, he rejected the teaching of James. Paul's writings are easier to twist out of context than the writings of James.
Hence when John writes that "he who does what is righteous is righteous" it has to to do with the "active faith" of one who is "abiding in Jesus Christ." Hence when he talks about the "implanted seed" and the "manifest conduct it produces." This is why those "who keep the commandments" in 1Joh 2 are not the liars but those who don't are liars. A good tree manifests itself with good fruit.
The modern Gospel taught in most churches denies this because it has twisted Paul's writings into teaching the work of Christ into an "abstract judicial provision" where a believer is "imputed righteous WHEN HE IS STILL WICKED." That is one of the most significant errors of the reformation for it denies the whole essence of true Reconciliation whereby one is actually REDEEMED FROM SIN.
There is no "salvation IN sin" for those who "yield to sin" are still in bondage. Bondage is the opposite of freedom.
Satan has been able to pervert the Gospel at a foundational level by redefining the nature of man through the doctrine of Original Sin (which denies ability to yield to God) and thus doctrines have had to be created which cloak the ongoing "inability to yield" hence the saved in sins Gospel because "sin you must."
Your doctrine completely falls apart at the foundational level when presented with questions like "does a serial killer have to forsake murdering BEFORE forgiveness is granted."
Your doctrine has to state equivocally that the murdering CAN CONTINUE otherwise every other willful sin of the flesh would have to cease as well. Your teachers simply cannot say that.
You see your doctrine is erroneous at the root. The foundation is wrong. You have a little leaven beneath everything which ensures that everything on top must be twisted. Those who preach the error want to "debate the branches" of the tree like OSAS etc. when the real error is in the root.
This is why the whole debate between those who hold to an Arminian point of view and those who hold to a Reformed point of view is a total red herring. They are debating within the confines of a paradigm of error.
This is why Paul warned Timothy...
20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen. The first to Timothy was written from Laodicea, which is the chiefest city of Phrygia Pacatiana.
You have erred concerning the faith and while you think I am a heretic (as most do, for the truth is never popular) you ought to really examine these things.
The students of the Apostles never taught anything close to what is being taught today in the Church System. The Bible can only be used to support it by isolating and twisting passages from context. Another means of support is also the sheer volume of people who believe the fundamental errors as they support each other.
The bottom line is this...
Your Gospel offers freedom IN bondage. Your Gospel denies heart purity. Your Gospel argues in favour of an ongoing rebellious state and thus the remedy must be some sort of cloak for rebellion.
It's the "error of the wicked."
2Pet 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pet 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
2Pet 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
Your position is flawed.
For example you appeal to Rom 5:17-19 in the context of the Augustinian view of Original Sin, ie. inherited guilt, inherited corrupted constitution.
Thus you say this...
If that were true and if you truly wanted to be consistent then you would have to adhere to the doctrine of universal salvation via imputation. You cannot take the first half of the verses Rom 5:17,18,19 and apply that as "universal" and then take the second half and not do likewise.
To do so must mean you throw logic out the window. Think about it.
Paul is making a comparison between the unrighteousness found in the carnal man of Adam and the righteousness found in the Spiritual man of Christ.
When Paul teaches that righteousness is imputed it is not in the sense of some abstract provisional cloak as you believe, rather it is in God looking at the heart of an individual apart from their outward deeds.
God does not count one righteous based on "outward perfection" but rather on "heart purity." "Heart Purity" is found through "Abiding in Christ." Hence righteousness is via the faith of Jesus Christ or even by faith "in" Jesus Christ (so long as one is abiding.)
There is no such thing as righteousness being imputed upon those who are still in rebellion. That is a satanic deception ("ye shall not surely die") wrought in the mind of Martin Luther which took off with the reformation. Martin Luther completely disconnected "manifest deeds" from "imputed righteousness" and that is the reason why he rejected the book of James and called it a book of straw.
What James did is clearly elaborated on the connection between "faith" and "works" in the sense that "genuine faith" is ACTIVE as opposed to being PASSIVE BELIEF, hence...
Jam 2:20-26
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Martin Luther's doctrine of "faith alone" (ie. trust in Christ alone) was in conflict with what James wrote and thus instead of Martin Luther refining his doctrinal error, he rejected the teaching of James. Paul's writings are easier to twist out of context than the writings of James.
Hence when John writes that "he who does what is righteous is righteous" it has to to do with the "active faith" of one who is "abiding in Jesus Christ." Hence when he talks about the "implanted seed" and the "manifest conduct it produces." This is why those "who keep the commandments" in 1Joh 2 are not the liars but those who don't are liars. A good tree manifests itself with good fruit.
The modern Gospel taught in most churches denies this because it has twisted Paul's writings into teaching the work of Christ into an "abstract judicial provision" where a believer is "imputed righteous WHEN HE IS STILL WICKED." That is one of the most significant errors of the reformation for it denies the whole essence of true Reconciliation whereby one is actually REDEEMED FROM SIN.
There is no "salvation IN sin" for those who "yield to sin" are still in bondage. Bondage is the opposite of freedom.
Satan has been able to pervert the Gospel at a foundational level by redefining the nature of man through the doctrine of Original Sin (which denies ability to yield to God) and thus doctrines have had to be created which cloak the ongoing "inability to yield" hence the saved in sins Gospel because "sin you must."
Your doctrine completely falls apart at the foundational level when presented with questions like "does a serial killer have to forsake murdering BEFORE forgiveness is granted."
Your doctrine has to state equivocally that the murdering CAN CONTINUE otherwise every other willful sin of the flesh would have to cease as well. Your teachers simply cannot say that.
You see your doctrine is erroneous at the root. The foundation is wrong. You have a little leaven beneath everything which ensures that everything on top must be twisted. Those who preach the error want to "debate the branches" of the tree like OSAS etc. when the real error is in the root.
This is why the whole debate between those who hold to an Arminian point of view and those who hold to a Reformed point of view is a total red herring. They are debating within the confines of a paradigm of error.
This is why Paul warned Timothy...
20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen. The first to Timothy was written from Laodicea, which is the chiefest city of Phrygia Pacatiana.
You have erred concerning the faith and while you think I am a heretic (as most do, for the truth is never popular) you ought to really examine these things.
The students of the Apostles never taught anything close to what is being taught today in the Church System. The Bible can only be used to support it by isolating and twisting passages from context. Another means of support is also the sheer volume of people who believe the fundamental errors as they support each other.
The bottom line is this...
Your Gospel offers freedom IN bondage. Your Gospel denies heart purity. Your Gospel argues in favour of an ongoing rebellious state and thus the remedy must be some sort of cloak for rebellion.
It's the "error of the wicked."
2Pet 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pet 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
2Pet 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
Courtsy standingthegap.org
Here is a short article by Mike DeSario, that sums up penal sub:
I hope many will see just how dangerious this false teaching is!
What Penal Substitution has done to the Gospel
The Redemption Model collectively accepted by the Orthodox Church for over 1000 years was based on Ransom in which Christ died on behalf of man to Redeem him from the Corrupting influence of sin; through repentance and faith PROVEN by Deeds. (No magic transfer of sin or righteousness, Redemption depended on Obedience to the truth, ‘Faith & Deeds)
Around the 11[SUP]th[/SUP] Century a Catholic Anselm developed the Satisfaction theory, in which Christ suffered as a Substitute on behalf of mankind in order to appease God’s sense of Justice, balancing out the scales so to speak; so God’s Divine authority would not be defrauded. Christ did not have to suffer the Wrath of God or be blackened as a sinner, but He did have to ‘Satisfy’ Divine Justice to make restitution for the wrongs man had done to God. This theory was later expanded by another Bishop named Abelard around 1100AD and much later severely altered into a Penal Model by Thomas Aquinas around 1200AD. In this was the Demise of Genuine Repentance Proven by Deeds, since Christ was man’s Substitute (under these theories) a person had but merely to TRUST in His Satisfaction and be declared Saved in God’s sight.
The final and most devastating blow to the Gospel of Christ came about in the 1500’s when the Satisfaction Model was systematized (or standardize) into a diabolical perversion called: ‘Penal Substitution’, by heretics Martin Luther, in Germany and John Calvin in Geneva. (I accuse them of heresy because historically they participated in murder, torture and other heinous acts not conductive to Christ’s teachings) Throughout the 1500-1800’s the Reformers wavered between Anselm’s Satisfaction theory and Luther-Calvin’s New Penal Model which called for Christ actually Suffering the full Wrath of Divine Justice in man’s place (even becoming sin!) making it possible for God to then TRANSER man’s sin to Christ and Christ’s Perfect Righteous & Obedience to man.
To Clarify:
Satisfaction is seen as an Alternative to Punishment so God’s honor is repaid and restored.
In Penal Satisfaction the Punishment (Wrath) Satisfies the Demand for Justice
In Satisfaction Christ suffered on our BEHALF
In the Penal Model Christ was Punished INSTEAD of us
Today the vast majority of the Professed Christian establishment is wholly ignorant from where their Doctrines originated and from whom. It is generally assumed that Substitution, Moral Transfer, Pre-forgiveness and eternal security are handed down from the Apostles and therefore taught in the pages of Scripture. Consequently almost everyone in the Church System believes (to one degree or another) that Christ died on the Cross in their place, suffered the Punishment (wrath) due them and has Provided a Covering over of their ‘sinfulness’, so they can be declared Righteous in God’s sight although they remain vile and corrupt to the core.
The theory of Substitution necessitates an entire System of Doctrine to define and make it feasible in the minds of men so they can believe that Christ actually taught such a perversion of Truth and then recorded it in the Bible. In this the ‘Saved in Sin’ Message is proclaimed almost world-wide by evangelical pundits and untold millions of people believe themselves to be Saved and Secured for heaven while sinning daily in thought, word and deed.
What makes Penal Substitution anti-Bible?
First because it absolutely negates the necessity of Crucifying the flesh with its passions and desires in the process of Repentance proven by deeds. Therefore the vile sins of the flesh NEVER stop & the heart can never be Pure.
Second it turns the Precious Savior into a Blackened Sinner by some mystical transfer in God’s mind so man can be declared righteous while he remains un-righteous.
And Third it subjects the Blameless and Pure Savior to the full force of God’s Wrath poured out on Him instead of deserving man to satisfy the demand for Justice. (turning God into the worst tyrant imaginable)
To Summarize what all this means in light of Salvation:
Man is Provided with a means to be ‘Saved in his sins’ because he is Born with a ‘sinful nature’ inherited from Adam of which he cannot forsake (you can’t forsake a nature) but MUST be Covered from God’s sight so he can be declared worthy of heaven even though he can never completely Stop sinning in this life. Thus the Substitution is his Salvation by receiving Christ into his heart and trusting it is finished, sin is pre-forgiven and Wrath fully satisfied
In this is the BEDROCK of every nonsensical fallacy on the lips of Professing Christians today:
‘No one can ever stop sinning’, ‘If they could stop they wouldn’t need Jesus and could save themselves’, ‘If I claim to do Righteous deeds I am trying to Self Justify and therefore Self-Righteous’, ‘If I add Works or Deeds to my faith I am rejecting Grace and destine for Perdition’, and IF I say I have no Sin I lie and the truth is NOT in me!’
Therefore the Bible teaches that ‘Christians’ are: ‘The Chief of sinners, Romans Wretch, with a Desperately Wicked heart full of filthy rags, who sins daily in thought, word and deed and anyone who claims otherwise is a self righteous liar with no truth in them.
So there you have it Penal Substitution:
Pre-forgives sin, past, present and future
Turns Christ into a Sinner who is punished in man’s place
Invents a Mystical Double Transfer of man’s sin to Christ and Christ’s Righteousness to man
Creates a FULL Provision for Continuing in sin without fear of penalty
And Negates the Entire Purpose of the GOSPEL to Redeem man from the Corrupting influence of sin!
ALL OPPOSITE OF THE BIBLE!
Christ died on Behalf of man as a Ransom for sin to Release him from bondage and destroy the works of the devil
who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time 1Tim2:6. (see also Matt20:28, Mk10:45, Isa52:3, Hosea13:14)
He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 1Jh3:8
He Could NOT have become Sin, because there was NO Sin in Him, He was a sin offering, not sin!
And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.1Jh3:5
how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Heb9:14
Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, Isa53:10
Righteous is What you DO by Faith Working by Love! (It cannot be transferred)
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does what is right is righteous, even as he is righteous. 1Jh3:8
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. Gal5:6
By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out, Heb11:8, ‘Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart,’ 1Pet1:22
It’s Not Provision but REPENTANCE Proven by Deeds to ……
to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance Acts26:18-21
Under Substitution: Under Ransom, Bible Redemption:
The Sin Never Stops (Born in sin, saved in sin, stay in sin) Released from the Bondage of Sin
You remain Carnal Sold under sin, no purity of heart Passion & Desires of flesh Crucified with Christ
The Flesh is Never Crucified with Christ in Repentance Heart is made Pure by faith working by love
There is no fear or urgency to get free from wrong doing Walk in Spirit Doing what is Right by faith
The Passions and Desires remain Corrupt Awake, Urgent, Renewed and Diligent
Substitution is a Doctrine of Demons and has (for the most part) ruined Gospel Preaching in the World today! As a result Millions now Walk blindly down the Wide Road to Perdition wholly unaware of their approaching doom. We Must work
Diligently to Pull Down this horrible Doctrine to save some before it’s too late. (2Cor10:3-6)
Here is a short article by Mike DeSario, that sums up penal sub:
I hope many will see just how dangerious this false teaching is!
What Penal Substitution has done to the Gospel
The Redemption Model collectively accepted by the Orthodox Church for over 1000 years was based on Ransom in which Christ died on behalf of man to Redeem him from the Corrupting influence of sin; through repentance and faith PROVEN by Deeds. (No magic transfer of sin or righteousness, Redemption depended on Obedience to the truth, ‘Faith & Deeds)
Around the 11[SUP]th[/SUP] Century a Catholic Anselm developed the Satisfaction theory, in which Christ suffered as a Substitute on behalf of mankind in order to appease God’s sense of Justice, balancing out the scales so to speak; so God’s Divine authority would not be defrauded. Christ did not have to suffer the Wrath of God or be blackened as a sinner, but He did have to ‘Satisfy’ Divine Justice to make restitution for the wrongs man had done to God. This theory was later expanded by another Bishop named Abelard around 1100AD and much later severely altered into a Penal Model by Thomas Aquinas around 1200AD. In this was the Demise of Genuine Repentance Proven by Deeds, since Christ was man’s Substitute (under these theories) a person had but merely to TRUST in His Satisfaction and be declared Saved in God’s sight.
The final and most devastating blow to the Gospel of Christ came about in the 1500’s when the Satisfaction Model was systematized (or standardize) into a diabolical perversion called: ‘Penal Substitution’, by heretics Martin Luther, in Germany and John Calvin in Geneva. (I accuse them of heresy because historically they participated in murder, torture and other heinous acts not conductive to Christ’s teachings) Throughout the 1500-1800’s the Reformers wavered between Anselm’s Satisfaction theory and Luther-Calvin’s New Penal Model which called for Christ actually Suffering the full Wrath of Divine Justice in man’s place (even becoming sin!) making it possible for God to then TRANSER man’s sin to Christ and Christ’s Perfect Righteous & Obedience to man.
To Clarify:
Satisfaction is seen as an Alternative to Punishment so God’s honor is repaid and restored.
In Penal Satisfaction the Punishment (Wrath) Satisfies the Demand for Justice
In Satisfaction Christ suffered on our BEHALF
In the Penal Model Christ was Punished INSTEAD of us
Today the vast majority of the Professed Christian establishment is wholly ignorant from where their Doctrines originated and from whom. It is generally assumed that Substitution, Moral Transfer, Pre-forgiveness and eternal security are handed down from the Apostles and therefore taught in the pages of Scripture. Consequently almost everyone in the Church System believes (to one degree or another) that Christ died on the Cross in their place, suffered the Punishment (wrath) due them and has Provided a Covering over of their ‘sinfulness’, so they can be declared Righteous in God’s sight although they remain vile and corrupt to the core.
The theory of Substitution necessitates an entire System of Doctrine to define and make it feasible in the minds of men so they can believe that Christ actually taught such a perversion of Truth and then recorded it in the Bible. In this the ‘Saved in Sin’ Message is proclaimed almost world-wide by evangelical pundits and untold millions of people believe themselves to be Saved and Secured for heaven while sinning daily in thought, word and deed.
What makes Penal Substitution anti-Bible?
First because it absolutely negates the necessity of Crucifying the flesh with its passions and desires in the process of Repentance proven by deeds. Therefore the vile sins of the flesh NEVER stop & the heart can never be Pure.
Second it turns the Precious Savior into a Blackened Sinner by some mystical transfer in God’s mind so man can be declared righteous while he remains un-righteous.
And Third it subjects the Blameless and Pure Savior to the full force of God’s Wrath poured out on Him instead of deserving man to satisfy the demand for Justice. (turning God into the worst tyrant imaginable)
To Summarize what all this means in light of Salvation:
Man is Provided with a means to be ‘Saved in his sins’ because he is Born with a ‘sinful nature’ inherited from Adam of which he cannot forsake (you can’t forsake a nature) but MUST be Covered from God’s sight so he can be declared worthy of heaven even though he can never completely Stop sinning in this life. Thus the Substitution is his Salvation by receiving Christ into his heart and trusting it is finished, sin is pre-forgiven and Wrath fully satisfied
In this is the BEDROCK of every nonsensical fallacy on the lips of Professing Christians today:
‘No one can ever stop sinning’, ‘If they could stop they wouldn’t need Jesus and could save themselves’, ‘If I claim to do Righteous deeds I am trying to Self Justify and therefore Self-Righteous’, ‘If I add Works or Deeds to my faith I am rejecting Grace and destine for Perdition’, and IF I say I have no Sin I lie and the truth is NOT in me!’
Therefore the Bible teaches that ‘Christians’ are: ‘The Chief of sinners, Romans Wretch, with a Desperately Wicked heart full of filthy rags, who sins daily in thought, word and deed and anyone who claims otherwise is a self righteous liar with no truth in them.
So there you have it Penal Substitution:
Pre-forgives sin, past, present and future
Turns Christ into a Sinner who is punished in man’s place
Invents a Mystical Double Transfer of man’s sin to Christ and Christ’s Righteousness to man
Creates a FULL Provision for Continuing in sin without fear of penalty
And Negates the Entire Purpose of the GOSPEL to Redeem man from the Corrupting influence of sin!
ALL OPPOSITE OF THE BIBLE!
Christ died on Behalf of man as a Ransom for sin to Release him from bondage and destroy the works of the devil
who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time 1Tim2:6. (see also Matt20:28, Mk10:45, Isa52:3, Hosea13:14)
He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 1Jh3:8
He Could NOT have become Sin, because there was NO Sin in Him, He was a sin offering, not sin!
And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.1Jh3:5
how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Heb9:14
Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, Isa53:10
Righteous is What you DO by Faith Working by Love! (It cannot be transferred)
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does what is right is righteous, even as he is righteous. 1Jh3:8
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. Gal5:6
By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out, Heb11:8, ‘Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart,’ 1Pet1:22
It’s Not Provision but REPENTANCE Proven by Deeds to ……
to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance Acts26:18-21
Under Substitution: Under Ransom, Bible Redemption:
The Sin Never Stops (Born in sin, saved in sin, stay in sin) Released from the Bondage of Sin
You remain Carnal Sold under sin, no purity of heart Passion & Desires of flesh Crucified with Christ
The Flesh is Never Crucified with Christ in Repentance Heart is made Pure by faith working by love
There is no fear or urgency to get free from wrong doing Walk in Spirit Doing what is Right by faith
The Passions and Desires remain Corrupt Awake, Urgent, Renewed and Diligent
Substitution is a Doctrine of Demons and has (for the most part) ruined Gospel Preaching in the World today! As a result Millions now Walk blindly down the Wide Road to Perdition wholly unaware of their approaching doom. We Must work
Diligently to Pull Down this horrible Doctrine to save some before it’s too late. (2Cor10:3-6)
But it meant more than that in the NT church.
In our justice system, do criminals go to prison to "balance out the scales?"
They do not, and neither is their any "balancing out the scales" in God's justice system.
Hi, Tommy4Christ,
Would you like to address what the NT states on the matter in the following?
Ro 3:21-22 - "Now a righteousness from God, apart from lawkeeping (our own doing) has been made known.
This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ (not by doing) to all who believe (not all who do).
Ro 3:17-19 - "if by the trespass of the one man death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of. . .the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men,
so also the result of one act of righteousness (the cross) was justification (righteousness) that brings life for all men.
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man (not through my own obedience) the many will be made righteous." (Ro 5:17-19) (not "gives")
Note that "justification which brings (not "gives") life for all men," is correctly understood "brings life for all men who are justified," not for all men who live, or that would contradict what the NT state elsewhere that justification is only for those who believe in Jesus Christ.
Also note that the text is not paralleling the scope of justification, but the cause of justification, which is the cross.
So don't apply the parallel to what it is not addressing.
In these verses, Paul is paralleling the trespass of Adam with the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
Note that he says in v.18 that we are all condemned by Adam's trespass,
just as we are made righteous by Christ's obedience (not by our own obedience).
Christ was a second Adam (v.14; 1Co 15:45).
In one man we were made sinners, just as in one man we are made righteous.
Paul is drawing clear parallelisms of imputation in vv.18-19.
In both parallels, the outcome (guilt, righteousness) has nothing to do with what men did, or our involvement would not be of the same nature, and the parallelism would be destroyed.
The clear meaning is that Adam's guilt is imputed to us, just as (in the same way)
Christ's righteousness is imputed to us.
So. . .God's abundant provision is the gift of righteousness (v.17).
Righteousness is not achieved, it is only received, and then what is received within is acted out. (1Jn 3:5-10)
The gift of righteousness from God gives us the ability to do what is righteous.
Without God's gift, we would remain unable to do it.
In our justice system, do criminals go to prison to "balance out the scales?"
They do not, and neither is their any "balancing out the scales" in God's justice system.
Hi, Tommy4Christ,
Would you like to address what the NT states on the matter in the following?
Ro 3:21-22 - "Now a righteousness from God, apart from lawkeeping (our own doing) has been made known.
This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ (not by doing) to all who believe (not all who do).
Ro 3:17-19 - "if by the trespass of the one man death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of. . .the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men,
so also the result of one act of righteousness (the cross) was justification (righteousness) that brings life for all men.
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man (not through my own obedience) the many will be made righteous." (Ro 5:17-19) (not "gives")
Note that "justification which brings (not "gives") life for all men," is correctly understood "brings life for all men who are justified," not for all men who live, or that would contradict what the NT state elsewhere that justification is only for those who believe in Jesus Christ.
Also note that the text is not paralleling the scope of justification, but the cause of justification, which is the cross.
So don't apply the parallel to what it is not addressing.
In these verses, Paul is paralleling the trespass of Adam with the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
Note that he says in v.18 that we are all condemned by Adam's trespass,
just as we are made righteous by Christ's obedience (not by our own obedience).
Christ was a second Adam (v.14; 1Co 15:45).
In one man we were made sinners, just as in one man we are made righteous.
Paul is drawing clear parallelisms of imputation in vv.18-19.
In both parallels, the outcome (guilt, righteousness) has nothing to do with what men did, or our involvement would not be of the same nature, and the parallelism would be destroyed.
The clear meaning is that Adam's guilt is imputed to us, just as (in the same way)
Christ's righteousness is imputed to us.
So. . .God's abundant provision is the gift of righteousness (v.17).
Righteousness is not achieved, it is only received, and then what is received within is acted out. (1Jn 3:5-10)
The gift of righteousness from God gives us the ability to do what is righteous.
Without God's gift, we would remain unable to do it.