History of the Trinity

stillearning · Sep 1, 2009

Three in One

In the "Book of Common Prayer", which every candidate for ordination and every clergyman to the Church of England avows to uphold, is the doctrine of the Trinity, which is said to mean that, the Father is God, the Holy Ghost is God, and the Son is God; yet there are not three Gods but one God! Many attempts have been made to explain how this could possibly be, but even the most ardent Trinitarians have been compelled to "give it up", and admit that the doctrine is "incomprehensible".
One gallant champion of the doctrine tried to illustrate it by means of three candles, which he lit, explaining to his audience: "There are three candles - quite separate from and independent, of each other, and yet there is but one light". "Yes", remarked one of the onlookers; "True, but you must admit there are three candles, and not one candle".
To be consistent with his creed, the Trinitarian would have to say, "There is one candle on the right, one candle on the left, and one candle in the middle; and yet there are not three candles, but one candle"!

History of The Trinity
The growth of the doctrine of a triune God, is briefly but plainly, set forth in the following facts:
A.D. 29 Jesus said, "The Lord our God is one Lord" (Mark 12:29).
A.D. 57 Paul said, "To us there is but one God" (1 Cor. 8:6).
A.D. 96 Clement said, "Christ was sent by God".
A.D. 120 "Apostles' Creed": "I believe in God the Father".
A.D. 150 Justin Martyr, introduces Greek Philosophy.
A.D. 170 The word "Trias", appears first in Christian literature.
A.D. 200. "Trinitas" is first introduced by Tertullian.
A.D. 280 Origen, opposes prayers to Christ.
A.D. 260 Sabellius: "Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three names for the same God".
A.D. 300 Trinitarian prayers unknown in the Church.
A.D. 325 "Nicene Creed" afflrms Christ to be "Very God of Very God".
A.D. 370 Doxology composed.
A.D. 381. Council of Constantinople invents "Three persons in One God".
A.D. 388 Emperor Theodosius threatens punishment to all who won't worship the Trinity.
A.D. 519 Doxology ordered to be sung in all the Churches.
A.D. 669 Clergy commanded to commit to memory the "Athanasian Creed".
A.D. 826 Bishop Basil, required the clergy to repeat the " Athanasian Creed" every Sunday.

The Athanasian Creed
According to the "Athanasian Creed", "Whosoever will be saved; before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep-whole and undefiled: without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic faith is this: "That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons: nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one: the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son: and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate: and the Holy Ghost uncreate. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible: and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal: and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three Eternals: but one Eternal. As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated; but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty: and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties: but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God: and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet there are not three Gods: but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord: and the Holy Ghost is Lord. And yet not three Lords: but one Lord". And, it goes on to say: "And in this Trinity none is afore, or after another: none is greater, or less than another: But the whole three Persons are co-eternal together: and co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved: must thus think of the Trinity".
See Deut. 6:4; Isa. 46:6; Mark 12:29; Ephes. 4:6; 1 Cor. 8:6.

Cup-of-Ruin · Sep 1, 2009

I have it that 1 John 5:7 was a Latin Vulgate derived inclusion in the KJV, I cannot find it in any NT Greek, it appears to be a spurious addition. I just thought I would add that information as being relevant to the thread topic...

wattie · Sep 1, 2009

A bit of Greek:

Gen 41:38 And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?

God- in this verse:

H430
אלהים
'ĕlôhîym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.

(John 4:24) God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

God in this verse:

G2316
θεός
theos
theh'-os
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: - X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

God in this verse:

G2316
θεός
theos
theh'-os
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: - X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].

Now-- here is where things start to get really interesting:

(Exo 3:14) And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Exo 6:2 And God spoke unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD:
Exo 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

God in this verse:

H430
אלהים
'ĕlôhîym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.

Jesus speaking:

(John 8:56) Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

(John 8:57) Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

(John 8:58) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Jesus' Greek name:

G2424
Ἰησοῦς
Iēsous
ee-ay-sooce'
Of Hebrew origin [H3091]; Jesus (that is, Jehoshua), the name of our Lord and two (three) other Israelites: - Jesus.

Hebrew origin:

H3091
יהושׁע יהושׁוּע
yehôshûa‛ yehôshûa‛
yeh-ho-shoo'-ah, yeh-ho-shoo'-ah
From H3068 and H3467; Jehovah-saved; Jehoshua (that is, Joshua), the Jewish leader: - Jehoshua, Jehoshuah, Joshua. Compare H1954, H3442.

More interesting:

in Revelation--

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Jesus, speaking of Himself:

(Rev 2:7) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Greek for God in John:

G2316
θεός
theos
theh'-os
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: - X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].

Hebrew for God in Genesis 1:1

H430
אלהים
'ĕlôhîym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.

what about the Word in John 1:1?

G3056
λόγος
logos
log'-os
From G3004; something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is, Christ): - account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.

Jesus = the divine expression of God

MahogonySnail · Sep 1, 2009

"and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"

This is exactly the same sort of thing as saying "There are three candles, and the three candles are one candle". How can something be with God, and be God at the same time?

Cup-of-Ruin · Sep 1, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

Well, Becuase it's Logos , meaning - divine reason and thought, so it could be understood as; "and the idea was contemplated by God, and the idea was God". So the idea is that He could be God, to be God of all Creation, He needed to manifest a Creation, thus He reasoned, and spoke it, and it was. Jesus Christ being the "Word" Logos, so He was in the beginning and He had not brought in to physical reality all Creation, so "In the beginning was the divine contemplation and His reason Logos was with Him, and the idea was He would be God"

That is my understanding of that verse.

Cup-of-Ruin · Sep 1, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

I should add that John is the greatest human theologian of all time.

watchmen · Sep 1, 2009

Good thread stilearning, this is exactly the type of things people need to know.

GoNzO · Sep 1, 2009

watchmen said:

The bible clearly say's that there is but ONE God, the Father! So if Jesus (YAHU'SHUAH) is God, than He is (as to His diety) the Father!

GoNzO · Sep 1, 2009

and plus, the Word of God those not sepparte Him from Himself! The Word was with God (The Father) and the Word was God (The Father)

watchmen · Sep 1, 2009

GoNzO said:

I agree Jesus is God, the Father incarnate.

watchmen · Sep 1, 2009

GoNzO said:

I agree with this statement as well, so does the O.P., you might want to re-read it

sisterren11492 · Sep 1, 2009

GoNzO said:

Rev 19:13 And he (Jesus) was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Father God did not create another god and break His own commandment "Thou shalt have no other gods before ME". He created a body for Him to come and purchased us with HIS OWN BLOOD (Acts 20:28)

Harley_Angel · Sep 1, 2009

I think it's a really hard idea to express in our limited language. In my heart and in my head I understand the Trinity perfectly, it makes complete sense to me that God could have three aspects. It's almost like, this is a really bad example with a bad stigma, but put the stigma aside and just look at the base meaning, it's almost like multiple personality disorder. It's one person, but often times there are several "personalities" that are completely independant of one another, often having different sets of memories, different accents, etc. Again, please look at it at a base level, I'm not saying God has split personalities, etc, I'm just trying to use an example that people would understand. God is completely divine, He doesn't have to work within the confines of human comprehension. When we try to explain Him, or try to understand Him, we are often times going to find ourselves confuddled because He doesn't have to adhere to physics, or be confined to the limits and boundaries we use language to describe, or to even make sense at all.

Densetzu · Sep 1, 2009

On the subject of the analogy of the candle, the Trinity is not three candles so much as it is one candle with three wicks and three flames.

jgrig2 · Sep 1, 2009

stillearning said:

Three in One

In the "Book of Common Prayer", which every candidate for ordination and every clergyman to the Church of England avows to uphold, is the doctrine of the Trinity, which is said to mean that, the Father is God, the Holy Ghost is God, and the Son is God; yet there are not three Gods but one God! Many attempts have been made to explain how this could possibly be, but even the most ardent Trinitarians have been compelled to "give it up", and admit that the doctrine is "incomprehensible".
One gallant champion of the doctrine tried to illustrate it by means of three candles, which he lit, explaining to his audience: "There are three candles - quite separate from and independent, of each other, and yet there is but one light". "Yes", remarked one of the onlookers; "True, but you must admit there are three candles, and not one candle".
To be consistent with his creed, the Trinitarian would have to say, "There is one candle on the right, one candle on the left, and one candle in the middle; and yet there are not three candles, but one candle"!

History of The Trinity
The growth of the doctrine of a triune God, is briefly but plainly, set forth in the following facts:
A.D. 29 Jesus said, "The Lord our God is one Lord" (Mark 12:29).
A.D. 57 Paul said, "To us there is but one God" (1 Cor. 8:6).
A.D. 96 Clement said, "Christ was sent by God".
A.D. 120 "Apostles' Creed": "I believe in God the Father".
A.D. 150 Justin Martyr, introduces Greek Philosophy.
A.D. 170 The word "Trias", appears first in Christian literature.
A.D. 200. "Trinitas" is first introduced by Tertullian.
A.D. 280 Origen, opposes prayers to Christ.
A.D. 260 Sabellius: "Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three names for the same God".
A.D. 300 Trinitarian prayers unknown in the Church.
A.D. 325 "Nicene Creed" afflrms Christ to be "Very God of Very God".
A.D. 370 Doxology composed.
A.D. 381. Council of Constantinople invents "Three persons in One God".
A.D. 388 Emperor Theodosius threatens punishment to all who won't worship the Trinity.
A.D. 519 Doxology ordered to be sung in all the Churches.
A.D. 669 Clergy commanded to commit to memory the "Athanasian Creed".
A.D. 826 Bishop Basil, required the clergy to repeat the " Athanasian Creed" every Sunday.

The Athanasian Creed
According to the "Athanasian Creed", "Whosoever will be saved; before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep-whole and undefiled: without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic faith is this: "That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons: nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one: the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son: and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate: and the Holy Ghost uncreate. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible: and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal: and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three Eternals: but one Eternal. As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated; but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty: and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties: but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God: and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet there are not three Gods: but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord: and the Holy Ghost is Lord. And yet not three Lords: but one Lord". And, it goes on to say: "And in this Trinity none is afore, or after another: none is greater, or less than another: But the whole three Persons are co-eternal together: and co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved: must thus think of the Trinity".
See Deut. 6:4; Isa. 46:6; Mark 12:29; Ephes. 4:6; 1 Cor. 8:6.

Lots of stuff there however just let me ask... are you a trinitarian as defined by the Athenasian creed?

watchmen · Sep 1, 2009

I am not

stillearning · Sep 1, 2009

jgrig2 said:

no I am not

Ryan1976 · Sep 1, 2009

This thread makes Arius look like he should have a St. before his name.

[youtube]uRQjd3XU_PY[/youtube]

[youtube]5qn7GyMRWyE[/youtube]

This one is really weird. It's supposed to parody Catholics but they're using modalist explanations. Guess the joke's on them -- still funny tho.

[youtube]LBYs__VRqBs[/youtube]

jgrig2 · Sep 1, 2009

watchmen said:

Then by your own admission I would say you should be banned from this site given this is considered one of those doctrines considered essential here when you join.

wattie · Sep 1, 2009

I always go for one being with three expressions or substances.. as I have put before I have trouble with three seperate beings cos if each one is God.. then it looks like Polytheism.. but been there and done that as far as discussion goes

History of the Trinity

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