P
After spending so many hours in reply I thought this would be better posted as a new thread.
So 1600 posts later this just came to your attention?
(I pray you will receive that in the spirit of levity that was intended!)
We are all right. All Christian core beliefs are the same. Christ was crucified, died and resurrected from the dead, to save all repentant from sin who have faith in his shed blood. Christians also believe the resurrection of the dead and Second Coming of Christ are yet future events (except full or hyper preterist heretics that we can probably expect to become more numerous, though to my knowledge they are of little significance.....as yet). It is primarily various interpretations of the figurative language of dreams and visions in prophecy that understandably does most of the separating into groups.
Not so much "people can" as people's approach forces them to "twist it to fit their own beliefs" ie doctrine. What follows is not intended to be an effort to further divide the body of Christ but rather to point out a path to unity.
The greatest, and most primary divider, is the entire approach one takes to bible prophecy. All Jews and Christians understand Old Testament prophecy through the historicist approach, and up until a couple hundred years ago the church - including those great men of God of the Reformation - also understood New Testament prophecy was in the process of being fulfilled through the traditional historicist approach as well. Then in the 19th century the pop-eschatologies of futurism and partial preterism began to come into vogue. Perhaps right on schedule:
2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Couple pop-approaches to prophecy with the fairly modern advent of seminaries, filled with men indoctrinating men to indoctrinate men, and the Berean spirit became the casualty, as evidenced in Christian forums throughout the Internet. Often reduced to little more than a war between futurists and partial preterists trying to stick each other in the eye, with proof-texted bible verses taken out of context. But no surprise, since each must believe the other to be virtually 100% in error regarding their understanding of the book of Revelation, because a 1900 year gulf divides the two views. Even worse these pop approaches render 1900 years of Christian era history off limits, from even consideration, in fulfillment of New Testament prophecy. Yet virtually none of these combatants have ever even considered bible prophecy, entirely within the traditional historicist approach.
I don't wonder if the reason the thread I posted on that subject was so relatively under attended, is because it might have made just a little too much sense, while at the same time challenging forum member's current approaches. Or perhaps because that thread also pointed out that the pop-eschatologies of futurism and preterism as they were received in the modern church, may be credited to the 16th and 17th century Roman Church counter-reformation inventions of Jesuit Francisco Ribera and Jesuit Luis Alcazar.
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...onal-approach-historicism-bible-prophecy.html
The palpable excitement with which great men of God like Matthew Henry and Isaac Newton, imagined the state of the church would be during these times, is little more than a hollow echo from the Berean spirited church of the Reformation.
Matthew Henry: "VI. That this prophecy of those times, though sealed up now, would be of great use to those that should live then, v. 4. Daniel must now shut up the words and seal the book....
.....a treasure of great value, laid up for the ages to come, to whom it would be of great service.....
Then this hidden treasure shall be opened, and many shall search into it, and dig for the knowledge of it, as for silver.
Those that would have their knowledge increased must take pains, must not sit still in slothfulness and bare wishes but run to and fro, must make use of all the means of knowledge and improve all opportunities of getting their mistakes rectified, their doubts resolved....
Those things of God which are now dark and obscure will hereafter be made clear, and easy to be understood. Truth is the daughter of time. Scripture prophecies will be expounded by the accomplishment of them; therefore they are given, and for that explication they are reserved.
Isaac Newton: "This Prophecy is called the Revelation, with respect to the scripture of truth, which Daniel was commanded to shut up and seal, till the time of the end. Daniel sealed it until the time of the end; {Daniel 12:4, 9} and until that time comes, the Lamb is opening the seals:....
All which is as much as to say, that these Prophecies of Daniel and John should not be understood till the time of the end: .... But in the very end, the Prophecy should be so far interpreted as to convince many." (Part II. Observations Upon the Apocalypse of St. John. Chap 1)
Yet look at the pop-eschatologies that folks run around clutching so tightly to, while squeezing their eyes shut, and stuffing their fingers in their ears and humming.
Futurism for example, has as its basis, John Nelson Darby's (the "father of futurism and dispensationalism"), 19th century interpretation of the figurative language of Daniel's Old Testament prophetic dream - Daniel's "70th week". Interestingly, C.I. Scolfield's annotations that advance Darby's doctrine suggest that Daniel's "time of the end" does not even begin until the middle of Darby's "7-year" "future" tribulation, so how could Darby's doctrine possibly be sound when futurists also admit that Daniel's book was sealed until the "time of the end"? Additionally, the tip of Darby's inverted pyramid of pile-on presumption, rests upon his interpretation of the figurative language of an Old Testament prophetic dream. So it should be no surprise we wind up with the predictable result when we finally get around to the literal language of literal verses in the New Testament that are not open to interpretation, by which Darby's inverted pyramid is undone. Since Jesus built our temple in three days, just as He prophesied He could, through His ONE SACRIFICE for sin FOREVER, and we are the temple of God - the true tabernacle that the Lord built - what purpose would a rebuilt temple serve? Salvation through the Gospel was given to the Jew first, and while some Jews may remain sovereignly blinded to the Gospel, Jews certainly are not excluded from the new covenant as evidenced in ministries like Jews For Jesus with more Jews coming to Christ every day. Since Jesus declared that there would be some that would "not taste of death" in the first century before the Son of man came in his kingdom, and John tells us we are his fellow companions in THE tribulation and in THE kingdom of Jesus Christ, we can see we are in His kingdom today! Fellowcitizens with the saints in the whole household of God. No waiting for some future reign of Christ on earth, particularly since Jesus said His kingdom IS specifically NOT of this world, anymore than God dwells in temples made with hands.
On the other hand is Jesuit Luis Alcazar's couter-reformation invention that is credited with the advent of partial preterism in the modern church, because his invention was used in Roman Church counter-reformation arguments. As one moves through Christian forums it would seem we discover that partial preterism is basically a one testament, one chapter, one verse, or even one word eschatology based upon the English word "this". Partial preterists often revel at sticking futurists in the eye with Matthew 24:34 in conjunction with an immediate audience hermeneutic (which Alcazar is uniquely credited for), though for some reason they fail to mention that the Greek "houtos" is also translated as "the same" on 28 other occasions, and if we combine that with a Greek English interlinear the verse may be understood thus:
Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, {the same} generation shall not pass, {whereinsoever} all these things {shall have taken place}.
Baazing - any suggestion of "proof" of doctrine up in smoke. Let alone inflexible interpretation of the English word "generation", as if it suggests that God passes judgment on folks because of their ethnicity and happenstance of the dating of their birth, rather than the condition of folks hearts. This seems to be the primary root of "punitive" or "hard" "supersessionism" - that suggests that God punished "the Jews" in the first century and Christians have been God's only people throughout the Christian era and God had no further plan for Jews - as manifest in the persecution, bigotry and hatred expressed against Jews repeatedly throughout the Christian era by so many Popes of the Roman Church, as well as by more modern self-proclaimed Christian groups like the KKK, Serpent Seed and the "Christian Identity" movement. Blindness that if it weren't so tragic would be laughable in light of the stunning reality of the restoration of Jews to their land that should convince even "the heathen" that He is Lord.
Yet how differently might we understand those verses if we read them again and consider when "genea" is used as: "Strong's 1074 'generation' genea 2) b) metaph. a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character".
Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for KJV
Isaac Newton put words to refusing to receive Paul's warning about not being wise in our own conceits:
“Hence I observe these things, first that the restauration of the Jewish nation so much spoken of by the old Prophets respects not the few Jews who were converted in the Apostles days, but the dispersed nation of the unbelieving Jews to be converted in the end when the fullness of the Gentiles shall enter, that is when the Gospel (upon the fall of Babylon) shall begin to be preached to all nations. Secondly that the prophecies of Isaiah described above by being here cited by the Apostle is limited to respect the time of the future conversion and restitution of the Jewish Nation, and thirdly that the humour which has long reigned among the Christians of boasting our selves against the Jews, and insulting over them for their not believing, is reprehended by the Apostle for high –mindedness and self-conceipt, and much more is our using them despightfully, Pharisaicall and impious”
It may have been less of a surprise, that folks could be indoctrinated into partial preterism prior to the 20th century. But today we can see that Jews began to be restored to their land in the early 19th century, after 1200 years of Islam had rendered Israel a denuded, desolate, desertified wasteland. Jews building Israel from virtual nothingness to being one of the most modern and technologically advanced countries in the world. Let alone that tiny little strip of land becoming the stand-out geo-political focus of the whole world, and the focus of the Islamic conquest of the world, with the goal of extermination of Jews and rule of Israel and Jerusalem - along with the rest of the world - as commanded by the Quran and Hadith. Yet the only claim the religion of Islam has to Israel, is the false prophet Muhammad's ridiculous tall tale that he rode on a flying donkey-mule one night, from Mecca to Jerusalem, then from the temple mount up to the "paradise" of his overactive imagination (you know, multiple virgins to defile in his chicken and wine serving bordello, with low hanging fruit, gold and jewel encrusted furniture, silk robes, servant boys, etc. etc.), and then back to Mecca by morning.
He even claimed to have prayed in the temple, that had been torn down over 500 years prior to his lie. Let alone that at the time that he claimed he took his trip, and supposedly arrived on the temple mount aboard his flying donkey-mule, the temple mount was being used as a garbage dump!
MOHAMMED'S NIGHT JOURNEY
While composing only 2/10 of 1% of the world's population Jews have been awarded 22% of Nobel Prizes in such fields as physics, chemistry, literature and medicine. They have truly been the blessing on all families of the earth that was promised in Genesis 12:3. Jews being restored to their land - not for their sakes but for the sake of God's holy name - and building it from a desolate wasteland, just as prophesied, and as anticipated by so many great men of God through prophecy, centuries before their restoration began to take place.
Eze 36:35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden;
Gush Katif greenhouses producing 150 million dollars of produce a year, before international anti-Zionist powers forced the Jews to surrender them to the Gaza so-called "Palestinians", who predictably looted them out and destroyed them. Who today sit around and wait for western welfare while planning their next terror attack against the Israelis.
and the waste and desolate and ruined cities [are become] fenced,
[and] are inhabited.
Rather than seizing the opportunity to point the way to the foot of the cross out to Muslims in this forum - who are compelled by the false prophet Muhammad to reject Christ's crucifixion and shed blood and deny the Son of God as articles of their faith in Muhammad alone - doctrine instead causes some supersessionists in this forum to pile on with them in Islamic hatred of Jews who happen to live in Israel, while ignoring the aggression of Israeli Muslim's and their goal of conquest of Israel. Some Muslims even posing as Christians in this section, without ever even informing the person they are chatting with that they happen to be a Muslim, while knowing that person assumes them to be a Christian. Even offered the perception of equal standing in bible discussion.....
1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
Particularly since pop-bible versions increasingly conform to pop-approaches to prophecy. And how many things are more profitable than producing yet another unique copyrighted version, of the largest selling book on earth? Recently it occurred to me while pondering this subject, with so many pop-versions around, wouldn't the tendency in producing yet another one, necessarily be to diverge ever farther from the truth with each successive version, if for no other reason than to avoid plagiarizing another copyrighted pop-bible version? We have one person in this forum quoting from a gender adjusted 1996 bible that was revised in 2009 without admitting to it, that now has a 2011 revision.
"Some time after the destruction of Solomon's Temple, the spoken use of God's name, as it was written, had ceased even though knowledge of how it was pronounced was perpetuated in rabbinic schools.[39]"
"Since the destruction of Second Temple of Jerusalem in 70 CE, the Tetragrammaton is no longer pronounced."
Tetragrammaton - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
So 1600 posts later this just came to your attention?
(I pray you will receive that in the spirit of levity that was intended!)We are all right. All Christian core beliefs are the same. Christ was crucified, died and resurrected from the dead, to save all repentant from sin who have faith in his shed blood. Christians also believe the resurrection of the dead and Second Coming of Christ are yet future events (except full or hyper preterist heretics that we can probably expect to become more numerous, though to my knowledge they are of little significance.....as yet). It is primarily various interpretations of the figurative language of dreams and visions in prophecy that understandably does most of the separating into groups.
Not so much "people can" as people's approach forces them to "twist it to fit their own beliefs" ie doctrine. What follows is not intended to be an effort to further divide the body of Christ but rather to point out a path to unity.
The greatest, and most primary divider, is the entire approach one takes to bible prophecy. All Jews and Christians understand Old Testament prophecy through the historicist approach, and up until a couple hundred years ago the church - including those great men of God of the Reformation - also understood New Testament prophecy was in the process of being fulfilled through the traditional historicist approach as well. Then in the 19th century the pop-eschatologies of futurism and partial preterism began to come into vogue. Perhaps right on schedule:
2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Couple pop-approaches to prophecy with the fairly modern advent of seminaries, filled with men indoctrinating men to indoctrinate men, and the Berean spirit became the casualty, as evidenced in Christian forums throughout the Internet. Often reduced to little more than a war between futurists and partial preterists trying to stick each other in the eye, with proof-texted bible verses taken out of context. But no surprise, since each must believe the other to be virtually 100% in error regarding their understanding of the book of Revelation, because a 1900 year gulf divides the two views. Even worse these pop approaches render 1900 years of Christian era history off limits, from even consideration, in fulfillment of New Testament prophecy. Yet virtually none of these combatants have ever even considered bible prophecy, entirely within the traditional historicist approach.
I don't wonder if the reason the thread I posted on that subject was so relatively under attended, is because it might have made just a little too much sense, while at the same time challenging forum member's current approaches. Or perhaps because that thread also pointed out that the pop-eschatologies of futurism and preterism as they were received in the modern church, may be credited to the 16th and 17th century Roman Church counter-reformation inventions of Jesuit Francisco Ribera and Jesuit Luis Alcazar.
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...onal-approach-historicism-bible-prophecy.html
The palpable excitement with which great men of God like Matthew Henry and Isaac Newton, imagined the state of the church would be during these times, is little more than a hollow echo from the Berean spirited church of the Reformation.
Matthew Henry: "VI. That this prophecy of those times, though sealed up now, would be of great use to those that should live then, v. 4. Daniel must now shut up the words and seal the book....
.....a treasure of great value, laid up for the ages to come, to whom it would be of great service.....
Then this hidden treasure shall be opened, and many shall search into it, and dig for the knowledge of it, as for silver.
Those that would have their knowledge increased must take pains, must not sit still in slothfulness and bare wishes but run to and fro, must make use of all the means of knowledge and improve all opportunities of getting their mistakes rectified, their doubts resolved....
Those things of God which are now dark and obscure will hereafter be made clear, and easy to be understood. Truth is the daughter of time. Scripture prophecies will be expounded by the accomplishment of them; therefore they are given, and for that explication they are reserved.
Isaac Newton: "This Prophecy is called the Revelation, with respect to the scripture of truth, which Daniel was commanded to shut up and seal, till the time of the end. Daniel sealed it until the time of the end; {Daniel 12:4, 9} and until that time comes, the Lamb is opening the seals:....
All which is as much as to say, that these Prophecies of Daniel and John should not be understood till the time of the end: .... But in the very end, the Prophecy should be so far interpreted as to convince many." (Part II. Observations Upon the Apocalypse of St. John. Chap 1)
Yet look at the pop-eschatologies that folks run around clutching so tightly to, while squeezing their eyes shut, and stuffing their fingers in their ears and humming.
Futurism for example, has as its basis, John Nelson Darby's (the "father of futurism and dispensationalism"), 19th century interpretation of the figurative language of Daniel's Old Testament prophetic dream - Daniel's "70th week". Interestingly, C.I. Scolfield's annotations that advance Darby's doctrine suggest that Daniel's "time of the end" does not even begin until the middle of Darby's "7-year" "future" tribulation, so how could Darby's doctrine possibly be sound when futurists also admit that Daniel's book was sealed until the "time of the end"? Additionally, the tip of Darby's inverted pyramid of pile-on presumption, rests upon his interpretation of the figurative language of an Old Testament prophetic dream. So it should be no surprise we wind up with the predictable result when we finally get around to the literal language of literal verses in the New Testament that are not open to interpretation, by which Darby's inverted pyramid is undone. Since Jesus built our temple in three days, just as He prophesied He could, through His ONE SACRIFICE for sin FOREVER, and we are the temple of God - the true tabernacle that the Lord built - what purpose would a rebuilt temple serve? Salvation through the Gospel was given to the Jew first, and while some Jews may remain sovereignly blinded to the Gospel, Jews certainly are not excluded from the new covenant as evidenced in ministries like Jews For Jesus with more Jews coming to Christ every day. Since Jesus declared that there would be some that would "not taste of death" in the first century before the Son of man came in his kingdom, and John tells us we are his fellow companions in THE tribulation and in THE kingdom of Jesus Christ, we can see we are in His kingdom today! Fellowcitizens with the saints in the whole household of God. No waiting for some future reign of Christ on earth, particularly since Jesus said His kingdom IS specifically NOT of this world, anymore than God dwells in temples made with hands.
On the other hand is Jesuit Luis Alcazar's couter-reformation invention that is credited with the advent of partial preterism in the modern church, because his invention was used in Roman Church counter-reformation arguments. As one moves through Christian forums it would seem we discover that partial preterism is basically a one testament, one chapter, one verse, or even one word eschatology based upon the English word "this". Partial preterists often revel at sticking futurists in the eye with Matthew 24:34 in conjunction with an immediate audience hermeneutic (which Alcazar is uniquely credited for), though for some reason they fail to mention that the Greek "houtos" is also translated as "the same" on 28 other occasions, and if we combine that with a Greek English interlinear the verse may be understood thus:
Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, {the same} generation shall not pass, {whereinsoever} all these things {shall have taken place}.
Baazing - any suggestion of "proof" of doctrine up in smoke. Let alone inflexible interpretation of the English word "generation", as if it suggests that God passes judgment on folks because of their ethnicity and happenstance of the dating of their birth, rather than the condition of folks hearts. This seems to be the primary root of "punitive" or "hard" "supersessionism" - that suggests that God punished "the Jews" in the first century and Christians have been God's only people throughout the Christian era and God had no further plan for Jews - as manifest in the persecution, bigotry and hatred expressed against Jews repeatedly throughout the Christian era by so many Popes of the Roman Church, as well as by more modern self-proclaimed Christian groups like the KKK, Serpent Seed and the "Christian Identity" movement. Blindness that if it weren't so tragic would be laughable in light of the stunning reality of the restoration of Jews to their land that should convince even "the heathen" that He is Lord.
Yet how differently might we understand those verses if we read them again and consider when "genea" is used as: "Strong's 1074 'generation' genea 2) b) metaph. a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character".
Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for KJV
Isaac Newton put words to refusing to receive Paul's warning about not being wise in our own conceits:
“Hence I observe these things, first that the restauration of the Jewish nation so much spoken of by the old Prophets respects not the few Jews who were converted in the Apostles days, but the dispersed nation of the unbelieving Jews to be converted in the end when the fullness of the Gentiles shall enter, that is when the Gospel (upon the fall of Babylon) shall begin to be preached to all nations. Secondly that the prophecies of Isaiah described above by being here cited by the Apostle is limited to respect the time of the future conversion and restitution of the Jewish Nation, and thirdly that the humour which has long reigned among the Christians of boasting our selves against the Jews, and insulting over them for their not believing, is reprehended by the Apostle for high –mindedness and self-conceipt, and much more is our using them despightfully, Pharisaicall and impious”
It may have been less of a surprise, that folks could be indoctrinated into partial preterism prior to the 20th century. But today we can see that Jews began to be restored to their land in the early 19th century, after 1200 years of Islam had rendered Israel a denuded, desolate, desertified wasteland. Jews building Israel from virtual nothingness to being one of the most modern and technologically advanced countries in the world. Let alone that tiny little strip of land becoming the stand-out geo-political focus of the whole world, and the focus of the Islamic conquest of the world, with the goal of extermination of Jews and rule of Israel and Jerusalem - along with the rest of the world - as commanded by the Quran and Hadith. Yet the only claim the religion of Islam has to Israel, is the false prophet Muhammad's ridiculous tall tale that he rode on a flying donkey-mule one night, from Mecca to Jerusalem, then from the temple mount up to the "paradise" of his overactive imagination (you know, multiple virgins to defile in his chicken and wine serving bordello, with low hanging fruit, gold and jewel encrusted furniture, silk robes, servant boys, etc. etc.), and then back to Mecca by morning.
He even claimed to have prayed in the temple, that had been torn down over 500 years prior to his lie. Let alone that at the time that he claimed he took his trip, and supposedly arrived on the temple mount aboard his flying donkey-mule, the temple mount was being used as a garbage dump!
MOHAMMED'S NIGHT JOURNEY
While composing only 2/10 of 1% of the world's population Jews have been awarded 22% of Nobel Prizes in such fields as physics, chemistry, literature and medicine. They have truly been the blessing on all families of the earth that was promised in Genesis 12:3. Jews being restored to their land - not for their sakes but for the sake of God's holy name - and building it from a desolate wasteland, just as prophesied, and as anticipated by so many great men of God through prophecy, centuries before their restoration began to take place.
Eze 36:35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden;
Gush Katif greenhouses producing 150 million dollars of produce a year, before international anti-Zionist powers forced the Jews to surrender them to the Gaza so-called "Palestinians", who predictably looted them out and destroyed them. Who today sit around and wait for western welfare while planning their next terror attack against the Israelis.
and the waste and desolate and ruined cities [are become] fenced,
[and] are inhabited.
Rather than seizing the opportunity to point the way to the foot of the cross out to Muslims in this forum - who are compelled by the false prophet Muhammad to reject Christ's crucifixion and shed blood and deny the Son of God as articles of their faith in Muhammad alone - doctrine instead causes some supersessionists in this forum to pile on with them in Islamic hatred of Jews who happen to live in Israel, while ignoring the aggression of Israeli Muslim's and their goal of conquest of Israel. Some Muslims even posing as Christians in this section, without ever even informing the person they are chatting with that they happen to be a Muslim, while knowing that person assumes them to be a Christian. Even offered the perception of equal standing in bible discussion.....
1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
Particularly since pop-bible versions increasingly conform to pop-approaches to prophecy. And how many things are more profitable than producing yet another unique copyrighted version, of the largest selling book on earth? Recently it occurred to me while pondering this subject, with so many pop-versions around, wouldn't the tendency in producing yet another one, necessarily be to diverge ever farther from the truth with each successive version, if for no other reason than to avoid plagiarizing another copyrighted pop-bible version? We have one person in this forum quoting from a gender adjusted 1996 bible that was revised in 2009 without admitting to it, that now has a 2011 revision.
"Some time after the destruction of Solomon's Temple, the spoken use of God's name, as it was written, had ceased even though knowledge of how it was pronounced was perpetuated in rabbinic schools.[39]"
"Since the destruction of Second Temple of Jerusalem in 70 CE, the Tetragrammaton is no longer pronounced."
Tetragrammaton - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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