The TRADITIONAL Approach of Historicism to Bible Prophecy

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PeteWaldo

Guest
#1
All mainstream Jews and Christians are historicists, since that is the approach we all take to Old Testament prophecy. While Wikipedia is not a definitive source by any means, in this case it can perhaps be constructive:

"Historicism is a method of interpretation in Christian eschatology which attempts to associate biblical prophecies with actual historical events and identify symbolic beings with historical persons or societies. The main texts of interest are apocalyptic literature, such as the Book of Daniel and the Book of Revelation, and historicist methods have been applied to ancient Jewish history, the Roman Empire, Mohammedism, the Papacy, the Modern era and even into the End time."

Jews and Christians understand Daniel's figures of "lion" "bear" and "leopard" kingdom "beasts", for example, were so well described they are nearly universally understood to be the ancient kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece, that came to pass in steady succession in Daniel's future, with his "fourth dreadful" beast being the Roman Empire.

Available evidence suggests that up until a couple hundred years ago, the church understood New Testament bible prophecy was in the process of being fulfilled, through the traditional historicist approach as well.

Matthew Henry: "VI. That this prophecy of those times, though sealed up now, would be of great use to those that should live then, v. 4. Daniel must now shut up the words and seal the book....
.....a treasure of great value, laid up for the ages to come, to whom it would be of great service.....
Then this hidden treasure shall be opened, and many shall search into it, and dig for the knowledge of it, as for silver.
Those that would have their knowledge increased must take pains, must not sit still in slothfulness and bare wishes but run to and fro, must make use of all the means of knowledge and improve all opportunities of getting their mistakes rectified, their doubts resolved....
Those things of God which are now dark and obscure will hereafter be made clear, and easy to be understood. Truth is the daughter of time. Scripture prophecies will be expounded by the accomplishment of them; therefore they are given, and for that explication they are reserved.

Isaac Newton: "This Prophecy is called the Revelation, with respect to the scripture of truth, which Daniel was commanded to shut up and seal, till the time of the end. Daniel sealed it until the time of the end; {Daniel 12:4, 9} and until that time comes, the Lamb is opening the seals:....
All which is as much as to say, that these Prophecies of Daniel and John should not be understood till the time of the end: .... But in the very end, the Prophecy should be so far interpreted as to convince many." (Part II. Observations Upon the Apocalypse of St. John. Chap 1)

Indeed the day-year language of prophecy that was recognized by the following (taken from a historicist site), requires the historicist approach.
Augustine (AD 430)
Nahawendi (Jewish) (AD 8-9th century)
Jehoram (AD 10th century)
Abraham bar Hiyya (Jewish) (AD 1136)
Arnold of Villanova AD (1292)
Tichonius (AD 380)
Joachim of Floris (AD 1202)
John Wycliffe (AD c.1379)
Nicholas of Cusa (AD c.1452)
Martin Luther (AD 1522)
Phillip Melanchthon (AD 1543)
Johan Funck (AD 1558)
James I of England (AD 1600)
Sir Isaac Newton (AD 1727)

However in the 19th century the eschatologies of preterism and futurism began to come into vogue, and by the last half of the 20th century had all but displaced the church tradition of historicism. Available evidence suggests that the presence of these approaches in the modern church can be credited to 15th and 16th century Roman church Jesuits who penned the eschatologies in apparent counter-reformation efforts. Indeed it was Jesuit Luis Alcazar's preterist eschatological scheme, that the Roman Church used in arguments against the Reformers. The Reformers didn't buy into it.

Lots of material available online.
Jesuit Luis Alcazar
Luis del Alcázar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jesuit Francisco Ribera
Francisco Ribera - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Let's investigate what this has done to obscure what should otherwise be a clear view of Christian era history and the resulting realities of today. It's interesting to note that preterists and futurists must each believe the other to be virtually 100% in error, regarding their interpretations of the book of Revelation after chapter three, because a gulf of 1900 years separates the two views. Perterists believing that the book of Revelation was fulfilled by the end of the first century, while futurists believe that virtually none of the book of Revelation will be fulfilled until some seven-year period yet in the future. Thus both approaches to prophecy must essentially ignore 1900 years of Christian era history as well as present-day reality, regarding preterist expectation of the kingdoms of this world being fixed by fallen mankind even as John's "whole world" has already fallen to Islam, or futurist expectation of a "revived Roman Empire" even as we witness Europe falling to Islam:

Both futurism and preterism necessarily require "that man of sin", "the false prophet" and the "beast" for example, to be subjects that were either over and done with in the first century, or are to be fulfilled during some future someday. Perhaps even more interesting than each having to consider the other to be virtually 100% in error, is that both approaches to the book of Revelation necessarily preclude devotees from even considering that Muhammad could be THE false prophet, or his Islamic kingdom "beast" the final foe of God's people. This even though a billion and a half people - one quarter of mankind in the world today - deny the Son of God and reject His shed blood, as articles of faith in the false prophet Muhammad.

Yet the false prophet Muhammad proclaimed the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel! He also commanded his followers to conquer all kingdoms and subjugate all people to DISbelieving the crucifixion of Christ, DENYING the Son of God, and REJECTING His shed blood, as articles of faith in Muhammad alone.

Surah 9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. 30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

Indeed if a Muslim were to confess that Jesus is the Son of God, or even pray in Jesus name, he will have committed the most egregious, and only unforgivable sin in Islam. As compared to cold-blooded mass murder or raping a child, which are forgivable.
http://brotherpete.com/unforgivable_shirk.htm

Yet in the Gospel we read:

John 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do [it].

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

KJV Bible search - in my name
There is one mediator between God and men:

1Timothy 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

According to Muhammad, his "Allah" may forgive all sins except "shirk".

Sura 4.48 Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.

Yet: 1John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

As one Muslim member of a popular Christian forum finally replied regarding this Christian confession, and after being asked repeatedly as to whether "shirk" is a sin worse than child rape or murder:

"Enough of the condescension - OF COURSE I - and even you and anybody else making that 'confession' would be committing the one HEINOUS sin that God does not forgive."

I had to press pretty hard for that reply, as it seems this subject may be very convicting to followers of Muhammad, since even they may be able to recognize what an unjust god it would indicate that they serve. Others refuse to answer, but thus far, none have denied it. Thus a billion and a half people in the world today are antichrist as an article of their faith in Muhammad:

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father:.....

Since Islam is antichrist - indeed is to Christianity as the negative is to a photograph - the only anti-a-specific-religion, cult, on earth - it should come as no surprise that each and every Muslim must reject the crucifixion of Christ and His shed blood as another article of their faith in the false prophet Muhammad:

Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Thus the enemy, Satan, through his prophet Muhammad fills his followers with complete resolve as to what to DISbelieve, DENY and REJECT.

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Since the enemy is the opposer of God, it should also not be a surprise to find that Muhammad's followers are commanded to fight, even the "People of the Book" - that is Jews and Christians - until all people on earth are bent into submission to Muhammad's followers. Indeed for 1400 years the followers of Muhammad have been commanded to conquer all kingdoms of the world, and subjugate all people, to denying the Son of God and rejecting His shed blood. It is the dar al Salaam (house of peace - Islam) at war against the dar al Harb (house of war - non-Muslims). While you may not be at war against Islam, if you are a non-Muslim Islam has been at war against you, for 1400 years.

From Islam's most highly respected Hadith collection: Bukhari, V1 B2 #24 Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."
 
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kenisyes

Guest
#2
There is one God, one plan. Sin has interfered with it big time. Prophecy tells us how God has, does, and will intervene in human history to get things back on track. Because God is timeless, every prophecy recorded in Scripture has fulfillment in its original historical setting, in our personal lives as each individual needs, and in the future. This is because God is the same today, yesterday, and forever. The original Hebrew does not have tenses as we know them, and this distinction is part of the actual prophecy when uttered, but is lost in English. Many prophecies in Greek are in the aorist, which has no equivalent tense in English, and carries a similar connotation.
 
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PeteWaldo

Guest
#3
There is one God, one plan.
Amen!
Sin has interfered with it big time.
Amen and amen. While core doctrine agreed, half the church must believe the other half to be virtually 100% in error regarding their understanding of the figurative language of the books of Daniel and Revelation since a 1900 year vacuum divides the two views. Even as both halves must necessarily reject the Christian era, as having anything to do with fulfillment of bible prophecy.

2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Prophecy tells us how God has, does, and will intervene in human history to get things back on track.
Do you believe that will include a final housecleaning at the Second Coming of Christ?
Because God is timeless, every prophecy recorded in Scripture has fulfillment in its original historical setting, .......
Daniel's beasts unfolded in succession, over hundreds of years in the Daniel's future. Why shouldn't we expect, as Newton and Henry did, for example - and the evidence suggests that the church did before the pop-eschatologies of futurism and partial preterism began to come into vogue in the 19th century - that New Testament prophecy was being fulfilled in the same fashon that Old Testament prophecy was fulfilled?
....... in our personal lives as each individual needs, and in the future. This is because God is the same today, yesterday, and forever. The original Hebrew does not have tenses as we know them, and this distinction is part of the actual prophecy when uttered, but is lost in English. Many prophecies in Greek are in the aorist, which has no equivalent tense in English, and carries a similar connotation.
 
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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#4
John's "whole world" has already fallen to Islam, or futurist expectation of a "revived Roman Empire" even as we witness Europe falling to Islam





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then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."
Pete: could you go here and address my concerns please:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/60682-return-jews-israel-11.html#post967273 < click

particularly the war-mongering part?

also, are unbelieving jews anti-christ according to JOHN?

1 John 2:22
Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist--denying the Father and the Son.

how come we insist on NOT having a level playing field...understanding that the State of Israel is a MISSION FIELD of lost sinners dying in their sins.....just like Islamic states?

why are involved in murder for non-Jesus?

"Indeed if a Muslim were to confess that Jesus is the Son of God, or even pray in Jesus name, he will have committed the most egregious, and only unforgivable sin in Islam. As compared to cold-blooded mass murder or raping a child, which are forgivable.
http://brotherpete.com/unforgivable_shirk.htm"

what happens to a jew who confesses Jesus is the Son of God Pete?
do you know?

not only excommunicated, but according to Halakhah he is deserving of the death penalty.
they just can't do it in the open...yet.

maybe we need a Judaism 101 thread.
i'll do it.

dontcha know WHO CONTROLS WORLDWIDE IMMIGRATION?

dontcha know about the Frankfurt School and Marxism?
dontcha know NUTHIN?

dontcha know who the Shriners are?
dontcha know who OWNS the Muslim Brotherhood?
 
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kenisyes

Guest
#5
Amen!
Do you believe that will include a final housecleaning at the Second Coming of Christ?

Daniel's beasts unfolded in succession, over hundreds of years in the Daniel's future. Why shouldn't we expect, as Newton and Henry did, for example - and the evidence suggests that the church did before the pop-eschatologies of futurism and partial preterism began to come into vogue in the 19th century - that New Testament prophecy was being fulfilled in the same fashon that Old Testament prophecy was fulfilled?
Yes I do. No reason for God to be any different at the end than He has been all these millenia.

No reason not to suspect it at all. It's just another way for God to be Himself. His personality affects history over the flow of time, just as it does in any given time.
 
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PeteWaldo

Guest
#6
Yes I do. No reason for God to be any different at the end than He has been all these millenia.

No reason not to suspect it at all. It's just another way for God to be Himself. His personality affects history over the flow of time, just as it does in any given time.
Do you recognize Daniel's lion, bear and leopard to have been the successive kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece?
 
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kenisyes

Guest
#7
I have no reason not to. I think that history is probably how God showed Daniel the prophecy for how He would work in the future.
 
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PeteWaldo

Guest
#8
I have no reason not to. I think that history is probably how God showed Daniel the prophecy for how He would work in the future.
When I just googled "babylon, medo-persia, greece" even in quotes I got over a hundred thousand hits. Jews agree too.

What kingdom today is centered around the geographical area that all of those successive kingdoms had in common?
 
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kenisyes

Guest
#9
It follows God's intention, not necesarily a specific piece of ground. If you are hoping to build towards fulfillment of these in Islam, you have a lot more work to do then who is standing on the ground.
 
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PeteWaldo

Guest
#10
It follows God's intention, not necesarily a specific piece of ground. If you are hoping to build towards fulfillment of these in Islam, you have a lot more work to do then who is standing on the ground.
Why more work? While Muslims even murder each other over their doctrinal differences, they are all perfectly united by the false prophet Muhammad and his Quran in the spirit of antichrist. For a Muslim to confess that Jesus is the Son would be to commit the most egregious - and ONLY unforgivable sin ("shirk') - in Islam.
So how isn't it apparent that the false prophet Muhammad's kingdom of Islam is seated in the same geographical area that Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece shared? As you indicate it is about the spiritual condition.

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kenisyes

Guest
#11
That post represents some more work. You are now showing that they have inherited some of the characteristics that motivated the first use of the prophecy. If you continue doing this, you will have a list that will integrate other prophecies in with those of Daniel, and get a more complete picture.
 
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PeteWaldo

Guest
#12
That post represents some more work. You are now showing that they have inherited some of the characteristics that motivated the first use of the prophecy.
That's right each of those successive kingdoms were satanically driven Gentile kingdoms that oppressed God's people.
If you continue doing this, you will have a list that will integrate other prophecies in with those of Daniel, and get a more complete picture.
Might John have already done that for us?

Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
 
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kenisyes

Guest
#13
Yes, its occurrence there does integrate many other prophecies. But this simply says Daniel's prophecy is happening at the end also, not that it is the Moslems fulfilling it. That still is going to take some work to be sure.
 
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PeteWaldo

Guest
#14
Yes, its occurrence there does integrate many other prophecies. But this simply says Daniel's prophecy is happening at the end also, not that it is the Moslems fulfilling it.
Who is a better candidate that Muhammad as THE false prophet with 1/4 of mankind that DISbelieve the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, DENY the Son of God, and REJECT his shed blood, as articles of their faith in Muhammad alone?
1.5 billion people that are commanded to conquer all kingdoms, and subjugate all people to doing the same.
All that while prostrating toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca five times a day, while praying in the "vain repetitions of the heathen" in the names of the pagan Arabian deity "Allah" and his "messenger" Muhammad.
 
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1still_waters

Guest
#15
Historicism is traditional?
It started 1500 or so years after Jesus went up to heaven.
How is that traditional?

Historicism focuses on linking anti-christ to the roman catholic church. Those thoughts didn't happen until around the 1500-1600s during the reformation.

Historicism is anything but "traditional"

As far as your Alcasar bogey man, there were Preterist interpretations of scripture LONG before he came along.
 
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PeteWaldo

Guest
#16
That still is going to take some work to be sure.
Let's see if John can confirm it in his 8 kings/beasts (the 8th "beast" indicates 8 kingdoms and we could assign individual kings to the succession).
While Daniel was prophesying about kingdoms that were to unfold in his future, John's prophecy seems to discuss all of the kingdoms in history.

John was to prophesy of the things that John had seen, which are (to John), and shall be hereafter (to John).
If you google it you will find nearly the same consensus regarding the succession of the first 6 kings/beasts being Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece which would be the five kings that had fallen. and the Roman Empire, the "one is" to John. Lots of folks agree. What kingdom does the historical record tell us the Roman Empire fell to?
 
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PeteWaldo

Guest
#17
Historicism is traditional?
It started 1500 or so years after Jesus went up to heaven.
How is that traditional?

Historicism focuses on linking anti-christ to the roman catholic church. Those thoughts didn't happen until around the 1500-1600s during the reformation.

Historicism is anything but "traditional"

As far as your Alcasar bogey man, there were Preterist interpretations of scripture LONG before he came along.
Did you read the OP? All Jews and Christians are historicists when it comes to Old Testament prophecy. YOU are a historicist. Please read the OP.
 
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1still_waters

Guest
#18
Did you read the OP? All Jews and Christians are historicists when it comes to Old Testament prophecy. YOU are a historicist. Please read the OP.
That's a VERY generous definition of historicism.
You must not be referring to the traditional definition of that word in relation to the differing theories on eschatology.

Historicism isn't just the broad application of historical events to Bible prophecy. One of the beliefs of historicism is that the RC is the anti-christ.
 
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1still_waters

Guest
#19
Did you read the OP? All Jews and Christians are historicists when it comes to Old Testament prophecy. YOU are a historicist. Please read the OP.
Your post isn't just about the OT...

Let's investigate what this has done to obscure what should otherwise be a clear view of Christian era history and the resulting realities of today. It's interesting to note that preterists and futurists must each believe the other to be virtually 100% in error, regarding their interpretations of the book of Revelation after chapter three, because a gulf of 1900 years separates the two views. Perterists believing that the book of Revelation was fulfilled by the end of the first century, while futurists believe that virtually none of the book of Revelation will be fulfilled until some seven-year period yet in the future.
 
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PeteWaldo

Guest
#20
Historicism focuses on linking anti-christ to the roman catholic church.
With the smell of the burning flesh of the reformers still in the air, it shouldn't be a surprise that some of them might have wanted to pencil the papacy in as "The" "Antichrist". However the verses don't support that view any more than they support the cult of the SDA today. You will find that reformers like Matthew Henry and Isaac Newton were fully aware that Daniel's book was still sealed, and thus the end times were still in their distant future.
Your comment would be akin to saying, for example, that since Arnold Murray's Serpent Seed cult uses a futurist approach to New Testament prophecy, that all futurists must believe that Eve had literal sex with the serpent in the garden of Eden.
 
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