Who are the 144000 ?

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WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
1,390
38
0
#61
The 144K are God's Elect, sealed with His truth on their foreheads which is another way of saying, in their minds. This number is significant in that God prefers to do battle against big odds with a small army so that He gets all the glory. The 144K are from all 12 tribes which we know are spread out all over the world. Therefore, there will be a select group of Christians of Jewish decent from all over the world left after the slaughter of those Christians who were deceived by Antichrist. They will battle Satan and do great exploits.

I firmly believe the story of Gideon's army can give us some insight here. If we look back we see Gideon started out with 32,000 men but this number was reduced to just 300 men or roughly 0.94%.

There are approximately 15.3 million Jews in the world today with 85% in Israel and the USA alone. If you divide 144,000 by 15.3 million you get 0.94%. Pretty cool if you ask me.

The top 10 countries containing Jews account for 96.4% of the world's total.
That would be cool if all 12 tribes were all Jews, but the reality is only the tribes of Judah and Benjamin and half of the tribe of Levi are called "Jews". These are known as the House of Judah. The other tribes are known as the House of Israel. They are not Jews. When you understand this simple truth, your eyes will read and understand who is being spoken of.
 
L

LT

Guest
#62
That would be cool if all 12 tribes were all Jews, but the reality is only the tribes of Judah and Benjamin and half of the tribe of Levi are called "Jews". These are known as the House of Judah. The other tribes are known as the House of Israel. They are not Jews. When you understand this simple truth, your eyes will read and understand who is being spoken of.
I agree with your premise. The ones that we consider to be "Jews" today only represent 3 of the 12 tribes.

Do you see this prophecy as the literal 12 tribes, or a metaphor?

I believe it is literal, but I do not care to speculate who are genealogically the remnant of the original tribes, nor do I believe this information will be revealed til the prophecy is fulfilled.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#63
I agree with your premise. The ones that we consider to be "Jews" today only represent 3 of the 12 tribes.

Do you see this prophecy as the literal 12 tribes, or a metaphor?

I believe it is literal, but I do not care to speculate who are genealogically the remnant of the original tribes, nor do I believe this information will be revealed til the prophecy is fulfilled.
Thats the hard part about trying to figure out things which have not happened yet. We can know they will. but the exact way it happens. All we can do is guess
 

WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
1,390
38
0
#64
I agree with your premise. The ones that we consider to be "Jews" today only represent 3 of the 12 tribes.

Do you see this prophecy as the literal 12 tribes, or a metaphor?

I believe it is literal, but I do not care to speculate who are genealogically the remnant of the original tribes, nor do I believe this information will be revealed til the prophecy is fulfilled.
I believe it could be literal 144,000, each tribe listed as 12,000. Not clear why the tribe of Dan is excluded. Just as their were non-Israelites that came out of Egypt with the Israelites, they would have been designated a tribe to camp with and probably married within that designated tribe. The millennium temple has 12 gates, one for each tribe. How will you know which gate is your tribe? Does not matter if you don't know at this time, but I am certain we will be assigned a tribe and thus, a specific gate to enter and exit by. I believe the 144,000 is only for the Great Tribulation, however the new kingdom will be as many as the stars or as many sand grains that exist. In other words, an unfathomable number.
 
L

LT

Guest
#65
I believe it could be literal 144,000, each tribe listed as 12,000. Not clear why the tribe of Dan is excluded. Just as their were non-Israelites that came out of Egypt with the Israelites, they would have been designated a tribe to camp with and probably married within that designated tribe. The millennium temple has 12 gates, one for each tribe. How will you know which gate is your tribe? Does not matter if you don't know at this time, but I am certain we will be assigned a tribe and thus, a specific gate to enter and exit by. I believe the 144,000 is only for the Great Tribulation, however the new kingdom will be as many as the stars or as many sand grains that exist. In other words, an unfathomable number.
yea, I think the 144k is only separate during the Great Trib, and has no bearing on the Millennial Kingdom; but that is my opinion, and not stated in the text. Just like the two witnesses are mentioned specifically, I believe this is just a group that is mentioned specifically. I think people have added more significance/implication to the passage than is warranted by the text.

Interestingly, Dan means 'judgement', I'm not sure if that has to do with him being left out.
 
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L

LT

Guest
#66
I believe it could be literal 144,000, each tribe listed as 12,000. Not clear why the tribe of Dan is excluded. Just as their were non-Israelites that came out of Egypt with the Israelites, they would have been designated a tribe to camp with and probably married within that designated tribe. The millennium temple has 12 gates, one for each tribe. How will you know which gate is your tribe? Does not matter if you don't know at this time, but I am certain we will be assigned a tribe and thus, a specific gate to enter and exit by. I believe the 144,000 is only for the Great Tribulation, however the new kingdom will be as many as the stars or as many sand grains that exist. In other words, an unfathomable number.
If the tribes are a type of the 12 Apostles, then either Dan or Ephraim stand for Judas. There were 13 people at the Last Supper including Jesus. After the Ascension, Judas needed to be replaced. Perhaps there is another type here, but I don't understand it.

I did a Google search on this topic of Dan being missing from the 144k. I didn't find anything too convincing yet, other than this audio What happened to the tribe of Dan? | Amazing Facts

I don't know who this guy is, so don't take what he says verbatim. I posted it because it seemed logical, and Biblically sound (as far as I can tell).
 
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May 15, 2013
4,307
27
0
#67
The 144000 are evangelists during the tribulation period. God choses 12000 from each tribe of Israel, And sends them into the world to spread the gospel.

Take God literally at what he says, don;t try to read things into it which are not there.
2 Corinthians 4:18So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

2 Corinthians 3:6
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Hebrews 9:1Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 2 A tabernaclewas set up. In its first room were the lampstand and the table with its consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, 4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 5 Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now.

6 When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year,and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washing—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

Matthew 15:2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”

3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ 5 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ 6 they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 “‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’”


10 Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. 11 What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.”
 
L

LT

Guest
#68
2 Corinthians 4:18So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

2 Corinthians 3:6
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Hebrews 9:1Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 2 A tabernaclewas set up. In its first room were the lampstand and the table with its consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, 4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 5 Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now.

6 When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year,and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washing—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

Matthew 15:2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”

3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ 5 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ 6 they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 “‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’”


10 Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. 11 What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.”
I agree with the implications of paring these verse together,
but I have no idea how it relates to this thread. Please explain the connection.

These verses would be very helpful in 'The Importance of Rightly dividing the Word of Truth' thread.
 
May 15, 2013
4,307
27
0
#69
I agree with the implications of paring these verse together,
but I have no idea how it relates to this thread. Please explain the connection.

These verses would be very helpful in 'The Importance of Rightly dividing the Word of Truth' thread.
I was responding to a response that we must take the word of God literally, which mean by our own understandings; but the word must discern spiritually but not what we perceive by our natural eyes and ears. Like Aesop fables, them stories has a moral behind the stories, but if you remove the morals (spiritual meanings) from the stories, then the stories doesn't have any life, but will be meaningless to read.
 
L

LT

Guest
#70
I was responding to a response that we must take the word of God literally, which mean by our own understandings; but the word must discern spiritually but not what we perceive by our natural eyes and ears. Like Aesop fables, them stories has a moral behind the stories, but if you remove the morals (spiritual meanings) from the stories, then the stories doesn't have any life, but will be meaningless to read.
hmmm. just be careful.
Don't compare the Holy Bible to fables.
The Bible is far more significant than just having morals.
I have found the Spirit agrees with the literal, and then applies the meaning to us spiritually.
 
May 15, 2013
4,307
27
0
#71
hmmm. just be careful.
Don't compare the Holy Bible to fables.
The Bible is far more significant than just having morals.
I have found the Spirit agrees with the literal, and then applies the meaning to us spiritually.
So should we ignore what had came out of Jesus own mouth. He said that the words He speak is spiritual. Greek were great philosophers. The Jews had live among them and was taught their language and understandings and the Bible was translated into Ole' English understanding so that King James can understand it meaning.

Bible's
[HR][/HR][h=1]A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush[/h]more like this......other phrases about:


[h=3]Meaning[/h]It's better to have a lesser but certain advantage than the possibility of a greater one that may come to nothing.
[h=3]Origin[/h]This proverb refers back to mediaeval falconry where a bird in the hand (the falcon) was a valuable asset and certainly worth more than two in the bush (the prey).
The first citation of the expression in print in its currently used form is found in John Ray's A Hand-book of Proverbs, 1670, in which he lists it as:
A [also 'one'] bird in the hand is worth two in the bush
By how long the phrase predates Ray's publishing isn't clear, as variants of it were known for centuries before 1670. The earliest English version of the proverb is from the Bible and was translated into English in Wycliffe's version in 1382, although Latin texts have it from the 13th century:
Ecclesiastes IX - A living dog is better than a dead lion.

Aesop's Fables:
[TABLE="width: 877"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 765"][TABLE="width: 895"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 870"]A bird in the hand is better than two in the bush.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="width: 870"]A bribe in the hand shows mischief in the heart.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="width: 870"]A false tale often betrays itself.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="width: 870"]A fine appearance is a poor substitute for inward worth.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="width: 870"]A humble life with peace and quiet is better than a splendid one with danger and risk.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="width: 870"]A man is known by the company he keeps.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="width: 870"]A villain may disguise himself, but he will not deceive the wise.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="width: 870"]A willful beast must go his own way[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="width: 870"]A willful man will have his way to his own hurt.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="width: 870"]A word in season is most precious.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="width: 870"]Abstain and enjoy.


[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#72
2 Corinthians 4:18So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

2 Corinthians 3:6
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Hebrews 9:1Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 2 A tabernaclewas set up. In its first room were the lampstand and the table with its consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, 4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 5 Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now.

6 When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year,and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washing—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

Matthew 15:2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”

3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ 5 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ 6 they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 “‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’”


10 Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. 11 What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.”
you will have to forgive me. But what does any of this have to do with what I said?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#73
If the tribes are a type of the 12 Apostles, then either Dan or Ephraim stand for Judas. There were 13 people at the Last Supper including Jesus. After the Ascension, Judas needed to be replaced. Perhaps there is another type here, but I don't understand it.

I did a Google search on this topic of Dan being missing from the 144k. I didn't find anything too convincing yet, other than this audio What happened to the tribe of Dan? | Amazing Facts

I don't know who this guy is, so don't take what he says verbatim. I posted it because it seemed logical, and Biblically sound (as far as I can tell).
Its interesting Dan was left out Yet so was josephs other son, And Joseph was also mentioned. Which could lead us to alot of speculation why. But Again, I would say we will know after. but before all we could do is speculate.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#74
I was responding to a response that we must take the word of God literally, which mean by our own understandings; but the word must discern spiritually but not what we perceive by our natural eyes and ears. Like Aesop fables, them stories has a moral behind the stories, but if you remove the morals (spiritual meanings) from the stories, then the stories doesn't have any life, but will be meaningless to read.
That works for parables. But not for prophesy. No pro[hesy which has been fulfilled already has taken a spiritual meaning. We should not expect other prophesy then to take one also.

If God prophesied in parable form. It would lead to all kinds of possible conclusions and interpretations, which would make Gods prophesies of future events, meaningless.
 
May 15, 2013
4,307
27
0
#75
you will have to forgive me. But what does any of this have to do with what I said?
Is this what you had quoted?


Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull

The 144000 are evangelists during the tribulation period. God choses 12000 from each tribe of Israel, And sends them into the world to spread the gospel.

Take God literally at what he says, don;t try to read things into it which are not there. You are referring to not to look into the unseen, correct?



 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#76
So should we ignore what had came out of Jesus own mouth. He said that the words He speak is spiritual. Greek were great philosophers. The Jews had live among them and was taught their language and understandings and the Bible was translated into Ole' English understanding so that King James can understand it meaning.

Bible's
[HR][/HR]A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush

more like this......other phrases about:


Meaning

It's better to have a lesser but certain advantage than the possibility of a greater one that may come to nothing.
Origin

This proverb refers back to mediaeval falconry where a bird in the hand (the falcon) was a valuable asset and certainly worth more than two in the bush (the prey).
The first citation of the expression in print in its currently used form is found in John Ray's A Hand-book of Proverbs, 1670, in which he lists it as:
A [also 'one'] bird in the hand is worth two in the bush
By how long the phrase predates Ray's publishing isn't clear, as variants of it were known for centuries before 1670. The earliest English version of the proverb is from the Bible and was translated into English in Wycliffe's version in 1382, although Latin texts have it from the 13th century:
Ecclesiastes IX - A living dog is better than a dead lion.


Aesop's Fables:
[TABLE="width: 877"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 765"][TABLE="width: 895"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 870"]A bird in the hand is better than two in the bush.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="width: 870"]A bribe in the hand shows mischief in the heart.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="width: 870"]A false tale often betrays itself.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="width: 870"]A fine appearance is a poor substitute for inward worth.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="width: 870"]A humble life with peace and quiet is better than a splendid one with danger and risk.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="width: 870"]A man is known by the company he keeps.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="width: 870"]A villain may disguise himself, but he will not deceive the wise.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="width: 870"]A willful beast must go his own way[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="width: 870"]A willful man will have his way to his own hurt.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="width: 870"]A word in season is most precious.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="width: 870"]Abstain and enjoy.


[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Jesus was talking about his words having spiritual impact (eternal) your taking this completely out of context. No prophet every prophesied like this.

Yes, they have have used symbolic terms like beasts and such, But they represent literal things (in this case kingdoms) But the things literally came true.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#77
Is this what you had quoted?


Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull

The 144000 are evangelists during the tribulation period. God choses 12000 from each tribe of Israel, And sends them into the world to spread the gospel.

Take God literally at what he says, don;t try to read things into it which are not there. You are referring to not to look into the unseen, correct?
I am saying do not make 144000 mean anything other than 144000, And 12 tribes anything other than 12 tribes. In doing this, you would have to twist the meaning of what is being said, and remove the prophetic aspect of what is being said. It would stop being prophesy, and turn into an allegory or a parable. There is nothing in the passage which would suggest we do this
 
May 15, 2013
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#78
That works for parables. But not for prophesy. No pro[hesy which has been fulfilled already has taken a spiritual meaning. We should not expect other prophesy then to take one also.

If God prophesied in parable form. It would lead to all kinds of possible conclusions and interpretations, which would make Gods prophesies of future events, meaningless.
This is what Joseph had prophesied.

Genesis 37:7For, behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and, lo, my sheaf arose, and also stood upright; and, behold, your sheaves stood round about, and made obeisance to my sheaf.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#79
This is what Joseph had prophesied.

Genesis 37:7For, behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and, lo, my sheaf arose, and also stood upright; and, behold, your sheaves stood round about, and made obeisance to my sheaf.

Yep, and that prophesy literally came true did it not? Did not the brothers of Joseph bow to him in Egypt?

Again, Symbolic terms to represent LITERAL events.
 
May 15, 2013
4,307
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#80

Yep, and that prophesy literally came true did it not? Did not the brothers of Joseph bow to him in Egypt?

Again, Symbolic terms to represent LITERAL events.
Oh, the prophecy has been fulfilled? Then I've better stop driving by the wheat fields looking for the sheaves coming to life. I just has a bad habit going by the letter.

A parable is a succinct, didactic story, in prose or verse, which illustrates one or more instructive lessons or principles. It differs from afable in that fables employ animals, plants, inanimate objects, or forces of nature as characters, whereas parables have human characters. A parable is a type of analogy.[SUP][1][/SUP]
Some scholars of the canonical gospels and the New Testament apply the term "parable" only to the parables of Jesus,[SUP][2][/SUP][SUP][3][/SUP] though that is not a common restriction of the term. Parables such as "The Prodigal Son" are central to Jesus' teaching method in both the canonical narratives and the apocrypha.
[h=2]Contents[/h] [hide]​


[h=2]Etymology[edit][/h]The word parable comes from the Greek παραβολή (parabolē), meaning "comparison, illustration, analogy."[SUP][4][/SUP] It was the name given by Greek rhetoricians to an illustration in the form of a brief fictional narrative.
Parable - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2 Corinthians 12:2

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows.

Numbers 12:6
And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.