Who are the 144000 ?

[GRA]

Say, GRA, have you considered that if they are neither raptured nor glorified, that implies two factors:

a) the 144K men remain biologically Earthing with metabolic human functions, and
b) the 144K males would require 144K females to repopulate the Earth during the Millennial reign?

If the Millennial is being repopulated with "today's" human DNA, when the whole concept of "original sin" hops into the Millennial time as well, would it not?

I agree with you w.r.t. the 144K populating the Earth during the Millennial reign, but I also believe those guys are not going to be physically XY chromosome descendants from Adam.

Remember the transfiguration in which Moses and Elijah appeared together with our Lord Jesus? Well, interesting to me is that the disciples watching this stuff were able to recognized Moses & Elijah whom they had never seen before due to hundred of years gaps between them.

I believe something similar may happen during the millennial reign when the 144K are accounted for: those in glorified bodies existing during the Millennium may well be able to recognize others as glorified bodies regardless of who is/is not glorified (as in the case of the disciples and later on Jesus Himself) and vice-versa.

What do you think?
BPie

Yes - I have thought about it quite a bit, actually. And, I cannot fully explain the 144K females needed. It certainly appears (in Revelation) that - at a certain point in time - the 144K are the only ones on the earth who are saved. There is a "strictly implied" indication that they are [bodily] as we are today. After all - as Jesus stands with the 144K - are the 'translated' saints not present also? ( In the 'scene', not necessarily standing with Jesus and the 144K. )

I believe that ( to a great degree ) "the whole idea" of the 1000-year reign of Christ is to show humanity "what could have been" ( instead of what was ) if we had only done things God's way... This requires that nothing be any different - with regard to the physical world ( from the physical laws of the universe to the fleshly nature of man ) - than what we have today -- the onlly difference being, that Jesus is "ruling and reigning" over it. Of course, there will be saints with 'glorified' bodies ( from the rapture ). But, the newly populated earth will be from a "remnant" of [today]. Only people with bodies like we have now have children. People with 'translated' bodies do not. Remember?

Looking at the seven-day pattern ( being it is the 7th 1000 years ) - it also represents a "rest" for God in humanity.

It also seems to be a "revisitation" to the nation of Israel.

Whatever-all for God's plan and purpose for the human race...

Sin will not be completely removed until the new heaven and the new earth. The "tainted-with-sin" old heaven and earth must be destroyed...

The 1000-year reign of Christ is to take place in the current ( 'old' ) heaven and earth. The new heaven and earth come afterward.

The 144K seem to be the only non-'translated' people left after the events of the Second Coming of Christ ( at a point in time even before His return, actually - when they are 'sealed' in their foreheads -- which occurs before the return of Christ - before the 'trumpet' events ).

I certainly do not have all the answers on this issue --- but, this is what I am currently thinking...

 

[Mark51]

The 144,000 of the anointed from the Christian Congregation will make up composite Bride of Christ. (Revelations 14:1) This arrangement does not include those who await a resurrection to an earthly abode/paradise. (John 10:16; Revelation 7:9-18) Jesus made this distinction clear when he mentioned to his disciples of two different arrangements: heavenly and earthly.-Luke 12:32; John14:2, 3.

The Apostle Paul identified this bride further as composed of the members of the earthly Christian Congregation. (2 Corinthians 11:2) Those initially “chosen” were told that this “citizenship exists in the heavens” and that their hope is to receive “an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance.” (Philippians 3:20; 1 Peter 1:1, 4) Paul also likened the congregation as earthly wives who are in subjection to their earthly husbands. (Ephesians 5:23-25, 32) Keep in mind that a wife-literally or symbolically-takes on her husband’s name.

Those that follow in a larger resurrection (second) receive a reward of a possible life indefinite on paradise earth. Their resurrection is not instantaneous; and they remain “asleep in death” until their appointed times. (Acts 7:60; 13:36; 1 Corinthians 15:6, 18; Hebrews 11:13; 2 Peter 3:4) However, this condition is conditional. Those that do not remain faithful after Christ’s 1,000-year reign will be subjected to a “second death“-a permanent destruction.-Revelations 7:9, 13, 14; 20:5, 6.

 

[Bowman]

Jehovah's witnesses believe that only those people go to heaven. The rest of the good people stay on earth paradise.
Your kingdom come on earth as in heaven they say.
who are the 144000 and what Will happen to earth ?

Context informs the reader that the 144K are not a literal number but a spiritual number.

These are the Righteous who make it to Heaven, worship God as Triune, and are from all walks of life...



Rev 7.4 - 9

And I heard the number of those having been sealed: one hundred forty four thousands, having been sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel: Out of the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Gad, twelve thousand having been sealed.Out of the tribe of Asher, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Naphtali, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Manasseh, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Simeon, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Issachar, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Zebulun, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Joseph, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand having been sealed. After these things I saw, and behold, a great crowd which no one was able to number them, out of every nation, even tribes and peoples and tongues, standing in front of the throne, and before the Lamb, having been clothed with white robes, and in their hands palm branches.

 

[enoch1nine]

John, 7 churches, 7 angels, 24 elders, 4 creatures, 4 horsemen, 200 megabyte army, 4 angels, are all the 144k.
But you gotta read it like you want to see people saved instead of burnt to a crisp.

 

[GRA]

John, 7 churches, 7 angels, 24 elders, 4 creatures, 4 horsemen, 200 megabyte army, 4 angels, are all the 144k.
But you gotta read it like you want to see people saved instead of burnt to a crisp.

LOL

'megabyte' ?

"By today's standards - that is not a very big army..."

 

[GRA]

Context informs the reader that the 144K are not a literal number but a spiritual number.

These are the Righteous who make it to Heaven, worship God as Triune, and are from all walks of life...



Rev 7.4 - 9

And I heard the number of those having been sealed: one hundred forty four thousands, having been sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel: Out of the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Gad, twelve thousand having been sealed.Out of the tribe of Asher, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Naphtali, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Manasseh, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Simeon, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Issachar, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Zebulun, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Joseph, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand having been sealed. After these things I saw, and behold, a great crowd which no one was able to number them, out of every nation, even tribes and peoples and tongues, standing in front of the throne, and before the Lamb, having been clothed with white robes, and in their hands palm branches.

I believe you have misunderstood the context...

At verse 9, a completely new 'scene' unfolds ---- these people are not the same as those referred to in verse 4.

 

[GreenNnice]

most of Rev = Nero, persecution of Christians, & Jewish war culminating in destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD

144K = faithful Jewish Christian "remnants" of the Israelites, who had believed in Jesus as Messiah, by that time

cp. Acts 21, when Paul visited Jerusalem circa 58 AD, there were 10s of thousands of Jewish Christians in Jerusalem; in another decade, that number had topped 100 thousand, throughout the Roman empire.

Wrong. Wrong as wrong can be wrong can be wrong.

 

[Bowman]

I believe you have misunderstood the context...

At verse 9, a completely new 'scene' unfolds ---- these people are not the same as those referred to in verse 4.

Sure they are...

The Book of Revelation repeats the same events over and over, and simply changes the epithets employed to describe the same things.

 

[Widdekind]

Rev 7 depicts, blatantly, the two main groups, comprising Christianity

1. 144K believing Jewish / Israeli Christians, from the tribes of the sons of Jacob / Israel
2. "multitudes" from the nations = believing gentile Christians

that is unambiguous, from the text. Many ambiguities exist, that is not one of them

 

[Bowman]

Rev 7 depicts, blatantly, the two main groups, comprising Christianity

1. 144K believing Jewish / Israeli Christians, from the tribes of the sons of Jacob / Israel
2. "multitudes" from the nations = believing gentile Christians

that is unambiguous, from the text. Many ambiguities exist, that is not one of them

Rev 7.9...

After these things I saw, and behold, a great crowd which no one was able to number them, out of every nation, and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing in front of the throne, and before the Lamb, having been clothed with white robes, and in their hands palm branches.

What other 'tribes' would these be if not the twelve mentioned previous?

 

[resurrection33]

Jehovah's witnesses believe that only those people go to heaven. The rest of the good people stay on earth paradise.
Your kingdom come on earth as in heaven they say.
who are the 144000 and what Will happen to earth ?

Could the “144,000” be allegorical?

 

[Widdekind]

John specifically states, that he saw two separate visions

1. 12 x 12K from the 12 tribes of Israel = Jews + Israelites
2. masses from "every nation, tribe, people, tongue" = gentiles

Jews & Israelites are not the only people upon this planet to live in "tribes". The word "tribe" is general enough, that the word alone is no more specific, than say "house-dwellers" (civilized peoples exist the world over) or "ruler" (all peoples have leaders).

Rev 7.9...

After these things I saw, and behold, a great crowd which no one was able to number them, out of every nation, and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing in front of the throne, and before the Lamb, having been clothed with white robes, and in their hands palm branches.

What other 'tribes' would these be if not the twelve mentioned previous?

 

[Bowman]

John specifically states, that he saw two separate visions

1. 12 x 12K from the 12 tribes of Israel = Jews + Israelites
2. masses from "every nation, tribe, people, tongue" = gentiles

Jews & Israelites are not the only people upon this planet to live in "tribes". The word "tribe" is general enough, that the word alone is no more specific, than say "house-dwellers" (civilized peoples exist the world over) or "ruler" (all peoples have leaders).

Not exactly...

Rev 7.4 informs the reader that John 'heard' the number of the sealed.

After hearing about it, John then 'saw' the ones sealed in Rev 7.9.

Same people...same event...spiritual Israel...

 

[Widdekind]

John sees 12x12K = Jewish/Israeli Christians...

then John sees "multitudes" of gentiles...

cp. "two witnesses" in Rev 11 = Jewish/Israeli Christians + gentile Christians... all true Christians were able to Prophesy condemnations against apostate "Babylon" = Jerusalem in 70 AD... as Jesus often stated, those who do the will of God are "true family", not "those who say they are Jews, but are not, but are a synagogue of Satan" (paraphrase)

Not exactly...

Rev 7.4 informs the reader that John 'heard' the number of the sealed.

After hearing about it, John then 'saw' the ones sealed in Rev 7.9.

Same people...same event...spiritual Israel...

 

[Bowman]

John sees 12x12K = Jewish/Israeli Christians...

then John sees "multitudes" of gentiles...

No.

John 'hears' the number of the sealed.

After he hears the number, he then 'sees' the ones being sealed...which is also called the great multitude which no one could number....clearly showing that 144,000 is symbolic and not literal.

There is no mention of 'gentiles' being a separate group.

The only two groupings of people in Revelation are the Righteous and the un-righteous.


The Righteous are not Judged and are taken first as part of the First resurrection....and the unrighteous are judged second, and are part of the second resurrection (second death).

 

[Tribulation]

Wow...Just wow... you all got it wrong..Where is the spiritual one that understands these things???

 

[Tribulation]

You are ALL stumbling around in the dark if you think God is going to turn back to flesh!

 

[GRA]

And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. ~ Revelation 7:4
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.
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After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; ~ Revelation 7:9
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.
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[SUP]13[/SUP] And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? [SUP]14[/SUP] And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. ~ Revelation 7:13-14

The Israelite Hebrew Jews were [ / are ] one nation, one kindred, one people, one tongue...

versus

ALL nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues...

Also ---

ALL came out of great tribulation... ( What? No Gentiles? All are Israelite Hebrew Jews? )

Oh - I see - only the Israelite Hebrew Jews get the white robes...

 

[Bookends]

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe there is a “little flock” of 144,000 (Revelation 7:4) who get to go to heaven and a “great crowd’ (Revelation 7:9) of others who are relegated to earth. What does Revelation really reveal? First, the 144,000 and the great multitude are not two different peoples but two different ways of describing the same purified bride. As Richard Bauckham explains, literarily, the 144,000 and the great multitude are comparable to the Lion and the Lamb. Just as John is told about a Lion and turns to see a Lamb (Revelation 5:5–6), so he is told about the 144,000 and turns to see a great multitude (Revelation 7). Thus, the 144,000 is to the great multitude what the Lion is to the Lamb, namely, the same entity seen from two different vantage points. From one vantage point the purified bride is numbered; from another, she is innumerable—a great multitude that no one can count.

Furthermore, to suggest that the 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes means exactly 12,000—not 11,999 or 12,001—must surely stretch the credulity of even the most literalistic Jehovah’s Witness beyond the breaking point. To begin with, ten of the twelve tribes lost their national identity almost three thousand years ago in the Assyrian exile. The other two, Judah and Benjamin, were largely decimated two thousand years ago by Roman hordes. Moreover, the pattern of Scripture is to refer to the community of faith, whether Jew or Gentile, with Jewish designations. New Jerusalem itself is figuratively built on the foundation of the twelve apostles and is entered through twelve gates inscribed with the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. Not only so, but its walls are twelve times twelve or 144 cubits thick (Revelation 21:12–17). As such, it is far more likely that 144,000 is a number that represents the 12 apostles of the Lamb multiplied by the 12 tribes of Israel, times 1,000. The figurative use of the number 12 and its multiples is well established in biblical history. For example, the tree of life in Paradise restored is said to bear twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month (Revelation 22:2), and the great Presbytery in heaven is surrounded by twenty–four elders (Revelation 4:4; 5:8; 11:16; 19:4). Likewise, the figurative use of the whole number 1,000 is common in Old Testament usage. God increased the number of the Israelites 1,000 times (Deuteronomy 1:11); God keeps his covenant to 1,000 generations (Deuteronomy 7:9); God owns the cattle on 1,000 hills (Psalm 50:10); the least of Zion will become 1,000 and the smallest a mighty nation (Isaiah 60:22); better is a day in God’s courts than 1,000 elsewhere (Psalm 84:10); God shows love to 1,000 generations (Exodus 20:6); “Even if a thousand shekels were weighed out into my hands, I would not lift my hand against the king’s son” (2 Samuel 18:12). A thousand more examples (figuratively speaking) could easily be added to the list.

Finally, the 144,000 represent true Israel as it was intended to be—in perfect symmetry and providentially sealed. Who can help but think back to Ezekiel’s epic depiction of a man clothed in linen etching a mark on the foreheads of those who grieved and lamented over all the detestable things done in Jerusalem prior to its destruction by the Babylonians six centuries before Christ (Ezekiel 9:4)? Or fail to realize that those who were marked were the earnest of the 144,000 sealed prior to Jerusalem’s destruction in AD 70? She is the purified bride from every nation, tribe, people, and language that will step over Jordan into the New Jerusalem prepared for her from the very foundations of the world. Indeed, the 144,000 is the limitless great multitude of all whose names are written in the Book of Life and who will inhabit the courts of God for all eternity.
For further study, see Hank Hanegraaff, The Apocalypse Code (Nashville:W Publishing, 2007).

144,000 article, CRI

PS. Sorry I was too lazy and too tired of trying to explain this over and over again, so I took the easy way out. NOTICE HOW HANK INTERPRETS THIS USING SCRIPTURE !!

 

[Bluecomet]

The 144,000 are already in Heaven. But they will be on earth the first three and a half years to preach the Gospel.