70th week fulfilled

zone · Dec 4, 2013

from another thread

zone said:

konroh: can we do a thread on just that 70th week and see what it was?

i've previously been satisfied to know that it (Daniel 9 - 490 years - 7x70 etc) was completely fulfilled in the 1st century, and that it is about Jesus, not The Antichrist or satan or the future. but matching exactly the Law and the feasts and the captivities and decrees and stuff has been challenging.

it's got to be a matter of lining up the events in Christ's life with that critical period - the 70th week; using all the appointed days and whatnot from the Law, and history and stuff. like i said, it's been something i keep putting off going all the way into because of the math & datings that conflict...but since actually reading through the book of Daniel itself, and seeing history match...it might not be as hard now.

the Day of Atonement might be a good place to start, because if Jesus didn't fulfill that, we're in bad shape, seems to me.

can we reason through this together?

because i wanna be able to have even more detail on those crucial years, and settle the 70th week issue.
is it possible to just set aside (on one thread) the idea that any part of the 70th week is not fulfilled, and see what happens?

if it doesn't match, anybody who wants to take back part of the 70th week and place in the future will do so.
but surely, if all the things in the Law were types, and pointed to Jesus, and the 70 weeks were determined for ending all of Israel's transgression, by the Coming of their Redeemer...it MUST have a match in Christ's life.

if any part of that 70th week is undone, we're toast.

......

example in new thread coming (70th week fulfilled):

so, was Jesus not the fulfillment of the Goat at His baptism; then the Lamb at the Cross?

Leviticus 15
The Scapegoat
20"When he finishes atoning for the holy place and the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall offer the live goat. 21"Then Aaron shall lay both of his hands on the head of the live goat, and confess over it all the iniquities of the sons of Israel and all their transgressions in regard to all their sins; and he shall lay them on the head of the goat and send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who stands in readiness. 22"The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to a solitary land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness

then we know about the Lamb sacrificed at Calvary.

because i'm looking at this right now - from a dispensational site, which still places that 70th week in the future (i think i know why now - we can look at that on the new thread):

"The high priest normally does not perform the Temple sacrifices, but during the week leading up to Yom Kippur, he serves beside the priests, and on the Day of Atonement performs all of the services alone. He stays the entire week before Yom Kippur in the Temple area, and is sprinkled twice with the ashes of a heifer to make sure he has not somehow become unclean by touching a dead body (Num. 19:1-13)."

they go on to say (which i totally disagree with):

"The Fulfillment

The Day of Atonement foreshadows two significant events: Jesus’ sacrificial death, and Israel’s repentance at the Messiah’s return. “They will look at Me whom they pierced” and repent, the Lord declares in Zech. 12:10. God will deal with the nation’s sins and remember them no more (Isa. 43:25; Jer. 31:34). Isaiah prophesied that the nation would be born spiritually in a day (Isa. 66:8; Rom. 11:26-27). This will be the prophetic fulfillment of the Day of Atonement as Israel comes face to face with its Messiah at the end of Daniel’s “70th week” (Dan. 9:24-27), a seven-year tribulation period that begins with the rise of an evil world ruler known in Jewish theology as Armilus and in Christian theology as Antichrist...."

- - Jesus in the feasts of Israel

but what if that's wrong?

what if THIS is what happened?

if it is, we should be able to make it match, because everything the law typified would HAVE to come together in Jesus.

okay....new thread.
hopefully all the future gap and half-gap stuff can wait (lol...doubt it)

zone

zone · Dec 4, 2013

alrighty....can we pleeeeeeeeeeze just see if the 70th week was fulfilled in the first century?
just on this thread?

zone · Dec 4, 2013

okay....how about this scenario?

...

Fulfilling the Day of Atonement

Jesus presented Himself for baptism on the Day of Atonement in order to fulfill the law. The instructions for this day are given in Leviticus 16.

7 And he [the high priest] shall take the two goats and present them before the Lord at the doorway of the tent of meeting. 8 And Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats, one lot for Yahweh and the other lot for the scapegoat [lit. for Azazel, goat-god, the satyr, or the devil].

Jesus fulfilled both goats. The first was to be killed to atone for the sins of the people. Jesus went to the Jordan River and presented Himself to John as that goat “for Yahweh,” while the priests were killing the first goat in the temple in Jerusalem.

His baptism was His presentation to the Father as the first goat, destined to die at the cross. It was His LEGAL death, followed later by His ACTUAL death on the cross.

Immediately after His baptism, the Spirit led Him into the wilderness to be tried by the devil. This was happening even as the second goat was led into the wilderness “for Azazel.” We read of this in Lev. 16:21,

21 Then Aaron shall lay both of his hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the iniquities of the sons of Israel... and he shall lay them on the head of the goat and send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who stands in readiness.

This is the goat “for Azazel.” Azaz means a goat, and El means God. Thus, Azazel means “the goat-god,” and this name is used often in Hebrew literature to indicate a satyr, that is, a creature half-goat and half-man. The Greeks knew Azazel by the name of Pan.

Once we understand that Jesus was baptized on the Day of Atonement, then Matt. 4:1 makes sense:

1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilder-ness to be tempted by the devil.

The law gave instructions that a “fit man” (KJV) or “a man who stands in readiness” (NASB) should lead the second goat into the wilderness “for Azazel.” Matthew 4:1 shows us that Jesus was the fulfillment of that second goat and was led into the wilderness by the Spirit to be tempted by Azazel. This shows the meaning of the obscure phrase “for Azazel.” It is a reference to “the devil.”

In other words, Jesus fulfilled both goats on the Day of Atonement. He fulfilled the first goat by presenting Himself to die (by baptism), and the second goat by being led by the Spirit into the wilderness.

The temple priests were required to make two sacrifices each day throughout the year. They were the morning sacrifice and the evening sacrifice (also called “the hour of prayer” in Acts 3:1). The sacrificial blood was poured out under the altar, as prescribed in the law, to cover sin.

During the course of each year, sin was covered, and yet they accumulated until the sin was removed. The spiritual principle was enacted on a physical level each year on the Day of Atonement. The first goat covered sin—that is, made atonement for sin. The Hebrew word kaphar, “to cover,” does not mean “at-one-ment,” as some have suggested. It means “to cover.” In fact, we get our English word cover from the Hebrew word kaphar.

The purpose of the second goat was to remove sin. It was pictured by the goat being led into the wilderness to a place without inhabitants (Lev. 16:22). Though Jesus fulfilled both goats at the same time in the New Testament, the greater fulfillment is in the two comings of Christ. His first coming was His death work to cover sin. His second coming is a living work to remove sin.

For this reason, we as Christians are now imputed righteous, because the blood of Jesus Christ has covered our sin. God now “calls what is not as though it were” (Rom. 4:17). This makes us legally righteous. But it yet requires a second work of Christ to remove sin and make us intrinsically righteous.

The very fulfillment of the law’s prophecy shows us that Jesus was baptized on the Day of Atonement. And this day was also the historical middle of the 70th week of Daniel. Daniel 9:27 says that the M essiah would be “cut off” in the midst of the week. For many years I assumed that this meant that Jesus would die on the cross in the midst of the week. But the actual history shows that it was His legal death that actually occurred—his “death” by baptism.

There are two ways to “die.” The first death is physical, the result of our mortality. The second death is the daily life of denying the flesh, crucifying the “old man” and reckoning him “dead” (Romans 6). The first death is physical; the second is a legal death. When Jesus was baptized, it was His legal death in the same way that our own baptism is also the death of the old man.

For this reason, Daniel says that “in the middle of the week He will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering.” Once the antitype has been presented to the Father, the types cease to be effective in the eyes of God. Once Jesus was baptized, the people were expected to receive Him as the True Sacrifice, and only His Sacrifice would suffice as payment for sin. He was indeed “the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” (John 1:29), according to John’s witness.

This is what put an end to all other forms of sacrifice—not in the eyes of men, but in the eyes of God. In fact, as I said earlier, we know from plain history that the priests continued to offer sacrifices in the temple until it was destroyed in 70 A.D. So Daniel 9:27 cannot possibly refer to the actual cessation of all sacrifice in the midst of the week. It can only refer to the divine perspective and has nothing to do with the actual religious practice of the temple priests.

God's Kingdom Ministries :: Chapter 4: The Midst of the Week < click

zone · Dec 4, 2013

can this be shown to be true?
like....i don't know because of the extremely dense and critical coming together of all the dates and times in Jesus' day.

zone · Dec 4, 2013

okay....more on these same lines:

So the Messiah was indeed cut off, but it took place in two stages: the first at the beginning of His ministry in the fall of 29 A.D.; the second at Passover of 33 A.D.

Nonetheless, Daniel 9:27 talks about this final week and pinpoints the midst of this week as the time when the sacrifice and oblation cease. History shows that God was talking about His baptism, not the crucifixion. In the eyes of God, the sacrifices and oblations (at least those performed on the Day of Atonement) became irrelevant at that point, for now the True Goat had been presented to God.

The fact that the Temple priests continued to offer sacrifices and oblations long after this date is of no consequence to us. It is not what men do, but what God accepts that is important. Sacrifices would not actually cease for many years, but in the eyes of God, that era had ended in 29 A.D. Hebrews 9:12-14 says,

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood He entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh; 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

The usual theory is that “the clock stopped,” either at the beginning of the 70th week or in the middle of it, and will be resumed at some point in the future. These views become irrelevant, once we see that Jesus was indeed crucified at the full end of the 490-year period. Jesus’ baptism in the midst of the week did not stop any time clocks. Furthermore, Daniel 9:27 is not talking about an “antichrist” who will put a stop to modern Temple sacrifices in Jerusalem at some future point. It is talking about what happened at Jesus’ baptism. Jesus is the One who put an end to the sacrificial system. And Jesus is the One who confirmed the New Covenant with many during that week from 26-33 A.D.

Nearly the entire concept of modern Dispensationalism is based upon a faulty knowledge of history. The beginning points of Daniel’s 70 weeks are manipulated without regard to actual Persian history that is conclusively established by astronomy. The dates are manipulated in order to make Jesus’ crucifixion date fit their view of prophecy. They have Him crucified in the middle of the 70th week, in order to “stop the clock” and push the final week or half-week into the future. To make matters worse, the view then mandates the re-establishment of animal sacrifices on the old Temple site, as if God would have any regard for them. This view tramples on the blood of Christ and makes void His Sacrifice. Christians have no business dabbling in such a view. My tolerance for other viewpoints is greater than average, but not when they begin to undermine the blood of Jesus and its effectiveness for sin. This is basic to Christianity itself.

Modern Dispensationalism also does not understand the concept of Blessed Time. They seldom relate it to Jesus’ statement to Peter in Matthew 18:21-22 about forgiving “seventy times seven” times.....

- tedmontgomery.com

( i have no clue about these sources, which denominations they are, etc....not concerned with that at the moment, because if the feasts and times line up, that's what i'm going with)

O math - why you so hard????

zone · Dec 4, 2013

"Four Passovers to Fulfill Messiah being “Cut Off” in the Middle of the 70th Week

The traditional understanding of the “seventy weeks” prophecy in Daniel was that it foretold when Messiah would begin His ministry, and that He was “cut off” in the “middle of the week” causing the Temple “sacrifice and the oblation to cease”. The prophetic “week” is seven years, and half of seven years is three and one half years. Then there was a gap of close to forty years being one “generation” before the Temple was made “desolate” in 70 AD; thus completely fulfilling the “seventy weeks” prophecy.

[In the 1800's the validity of the book of Daniel and all it contained was challenged, and a new view of the “seventy weeks” called the pre-tribulation rapture theory began to take hold in England and America in which the 70th week became seven years of tribulation which believers would be raptured from in which an “antichrist” broke a covenant after 3.5 years starting 3.5 years of great tribulation. In order to attribute the 3.5 year period to an “antichrist” some now even challenge Christ's 3.5 years of ministry. I provide an outline of Messiah's 3.5 year ministry given in John's gospel, which I place from Fall 29 AD to Spring 33 AD. "]

AwakeBride: Four Passovers to Fulfill Messiah being “Cut Off” in the Middle of the 70th Week

.....

"The traditional understanding of the “seventy weeks” prophecy in Daniel was that it foretold when Messiah would begin His ministry, and that He was “cut off” in the “middle of the week” causing the Temple “sacrifice and the oblation to cease”. The prophetic “week” is seven years, and half of seven years is three and one half years. Then there was a gap of close to forty years being one “generation” before the Temple was made “desolate” in 70 AD; thus completely fulfilling the “seventy weeks” prophecy. "

but i've not held that view either: - that "Then there was a gap of close to forty years being one “generation” before the Temple was made “desolate” in 70 AD; thus completely fulfilling the “seventy weeks” prophecy."

instead, i've been of the position that Jesus was cut off in the middle of the 70th week, then some other 3.5 year appointment followed exactly on the end of the first half the 70th week, fulfilling the whole week in 7 years with NO GAP.

and that, yes....THEN, outside of the 70 week window "close to forty years [later] being one “generation” before the Temple was made “desolate” in 70 AD", the entire passage in Daniel 9 is fulfilled, but NOT THAT there was any GAP....just the 40 year probation, AFTER the 70th week.

and there are no shortage of dates and calculations that make that look like a solid match.

but i lose it with all DA NUMBERS AND DATES.

example:

"Though Nehemiah and Ezra saw Jerusalem's wall rebuilt in 52 days, I assume that it took 7 “weeks” (49 years) to fully restore the “streets” and to return to business as usual by 406/405 BC. After another 62 “weeks” (434 years) the Messiah was introduced as the “Prince” or “Son of God” at His baptism when He was about 30 years old. 434 – 406 = 28, but since there is no year zero, you must add one year to make 29 AD the year of Christ's baptism. Evidence points to Jesus being born on the 1st of Tishri in 3 BC. I believe Jesus was baptized on the 1st of Elul, a month before His 31st birthday. Jesus was 1 year old in Tishri of 2 BC when the magi began their travels to see “he that is born King of the Jews” and encountered king Herod (who died in Spring of 1 BC when there was a full lunar eclipse, not in 4 BC). Jesus was 2 in 1 BC, and He was 3 in 1 AD. 29 – 1 = 28. 28 + 3 = 31, but since Jesus was baptized a month before His birthday, He was thirty years old; and Jesus began His ministry of 3.5 years when He was aged 31. The first half year of ministry was from Fall 29 AD to Spring 30 AD"

ARRRG.

.....

OKAY anyways - ZERO ZERO QUESTION (for me anyhow

) THAT THIS IS FULFILLED. no gap theories.

Daniel 9
“Seventy weeks are determined on your people and on your holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and three score and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after three score and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and to the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured on the desolate.” (Daniel 9:24-27)

....

question is what are da dates and times and da history???

Isdaniel · Dec 4, 2013

Daniel 9

King James Version (KJV)

23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

Following the destruction of Jerusalem by king Nebuchadnezzar the year 606 B.C., Daniel was led away captive to Babylon. In verses 20 and 21 of this chapter we find him praying for the restoration of Israel and confessing the sins of his people. While he was on his knees praying as it was his custom (chapter 6:10 it says he kneeled upon his knees three times daily), the angel Gabriel was caused to visit him. He came to give Daniel "skill and understanding" - Verses 21, 22.

Verse 23: At the beginning of his humble prayer a commandment came forth from the Creator to Gabriel for him to go to Daniel. Gabriel said: "At the beginning of thy supplication the commandment came forth, and I am come to SHOW THEE."
Verse 23: "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people, and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sin, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up the vision and the prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy."

Notice that seventy weeks were determined upon the Jewish people and upon the Holy City Jerusalem to bring about six important conditions as mentioned in this verse.

zone · Dec 4, 2013

Isdaniel said:

could you please cite your sources?

DANIEL AND REVELATION < click

Church of God (Seventh-Day) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia < click

it just makes it easier to find out what your ideas are...from the source if possible, rather than 50 million pieces everywhere.

k.

this thread is (hopefully) only about the 70th week - being fulfilled in the literal 490 year schedule, okay?

anything else isn't relevant.

zone · Dec 4, 2013

Leviticus 25:9
Then shall you cause the trumpet of the jubilee to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, in the day of atonement shall you make the trumpet sound throughout all your land.
Torrey's Topical Textbook—AKJV

....

Nick1939 · Dec 4, 2013

HI, Zone, 70 Week of Daniel. There is no GAP,you are right and there is no 7 years of Tribulation,where the Antichrist will make a covenant with Israel ,as they preach.is not true. please consider these verses,In the eyes of God ,temple destroyed at the death of the testator Heb 9:16-17 Jesus on the Cross,Mat 27:51 Mark 15:38 that is when Sacrifice and oblation for sin was cease,acording to the Law,because now God Honors the Sacrifice of the New Covenant.The Temple was destroyed 70 AD is Jesus prophecy Fulfilled Mat 24:2 Luke 19:41-44 21:20-24,..Now the 3`and half years of Jesus Ministry Is the Half of the Week, But where is the other Half? I Don't have the Dates,but I have a Strong hunch that took place in this verses,Acts 11:19 why were they preaching to the Jews ONLY?and why was NECESSARY the word of God be first Spoken to the Jews Acts 13:44-47 and acts 28:28 ?, Is it perhaps to Fulfill the 70 Week Prophecy to them? to me Sounds Logical. God bless..

zone · Dec 4, 2013

Nick1939 said:

hi Nick

that's the position i have held, and still do (so far).

the problem seems to be that we can't fix an end date to that last .5 week.
personally i don't have a problem with that - but if there is a solution, that can be known, i want to know it

it's hard though cuzza the dates thing.
but the trumpets and feasts and days should match...it's HARD

.....

trying to find a starting point is tough...

but maybe just getting all the markers out there might help.

like this:

John 2
13When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14In the temple courts he found people selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. 15So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 16To those who sold doves he said, “Get these out of here! Stop turning my Father’s house into a market!” 17His disciples remembered that it is written: “Zeal for your house will consume me.”c

18The Jews then responded to him, “What sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?”

19Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”

20They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 21But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

and:

Luke 3:23
Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry.

so right there we have:

1) Jesus was about 30 years old when He began His ministry
2) almost time for the Jewish Passover He is in the Temple (Psalm 69:9; Romans 15:3) - He was baptised right before this, right?
3) it had taken 46 years to build the temple (whether it was actually finished or not i don't think matters)

there MUST be somebody who has this figured out already

arg...where....is....it.....?

posting all options and studies would be awesome (except gapper stuff)

konroh · Dec 4, 2013

There is a great chart on the views of Daniel from H. Wayne House's book. Maybe I can scan it in though I don't have that capability at the moment. CHARTS OF BIBLE PROPHECY by H. Wayne House and Randall Price - Armageddon Books Bible Prophecy Bookstore. Antichrist, Rapture, 666, Tribulation, Revelation

In any event, what we're dealing with here is the Messianic interpretation of Dan. 9, the 70 weeks starts with Artaxerxes' 1st degree, ends with Stephen's death and Paul's call (Ad 33), Titus destroys Jerusalem in AD 70, there's no gap, Christ makes the covenant and ends sacrifice, which covenant is the New Covenant made with the disciples (extended to the Church), the end of sacrifice is Christ's death, Titus causes the desolations.

The problems with this view are these:
Christ didn't make a covenant in AD 26,
Christ's death didn't end sacrifices, they continued to AD 70,
this view sees the "abomination" as AD 70 but somehow before the "week" of AD 26-33,
a 7 year period regarding Christ is very difficult to pin down, there is no definitive view,
there aren't 7 years between Christ's death and AD 70 so v. 27 is not fulfilled literally,
the "he" (v.27) looks back to Titus as the antecedent (v. 26b) not to Christ (v.26a)
the covenant is made with the "many," seemingly the Jewish people Daniel was written to, and not the disciples

Here's a look at the math and dating, I believe a huge amount of work has gone into this, it employs a 360 day (lunar) years of the Jewish calendar but still works with the Gregorian and astronomical calendar

444 BC 2nd Decree of Artaxerxes for Jews to "restore and rebuild Jerusalem" [walls] Da. 9:25a, Ne 2:5-8
1st Temple (Zerubbabel's)
396 BC Rebuilding of Jerusalem completed (49 years, 1st 7 sevens)
AD 29 Christ's triumphal entry (1st 69 weeks, completion of 483 years) 2nd Temple (Herod's)
AD 33 Messiah "cut off"
AD 70 "People of prince who is to come destroy city and sanctuary"

So we have the end of the 69th week either being Jesus baptism or His triumphal entry. I've seen the dating line up exactly from 444 BC to the day of the triumphal entry. To be honest, I'm not sure why the Day of Atonement and Jesus' baptism is linked to Dan. 9, there doesn't seem to be a specific reference for it. The biggest problem as I see it is not whether Jesus can be shown to fulfill the 70th week, it's how it's possible that the 70th week can refer to Jesus when the 70th week has to occur after the temple is destroyed in AD 70.

To me the points that have to line up for Jesus to fulfill the 70th week are he has to be shown to make a covenant with the many for 7 years, he has to put an end to sacrifice and seemingly the covenant in the middle of this 7 years, then because of these desolations He has to be destroyed as the desolator, that's what the text says to me. I don't think this fits Christ, but I look forward to the discussion.

Yahshua · Dec 4, 2013

Tumbling down the rabbit hole I see, Zone? Let me just say that it's not *your* math that's the problem so much as it's the fact that the math doesn't work with some numbers you were given. God's truth can not be hidden but I'd like to remind you of who had sole possession of written scripture (outlawing possession of it by lay persons), who would stand to benefit from having scripture fulfilled (with a few slight changes here and there in time frames) to have the office of the Pope as the kingdom of God on earth.

The same group that changed the calendar fudged more of the numbers you need.

It took me a few years of digging (through many pieces of information) to find the accurate numbers so I don't have a central source of information to share (but for each point I'll do my best to find a source online).

Also, there's no such thing as a "zero" year (biblically) for any measurement of time, which you correctly recognize when going from BC to AD in your example. But it ALSO means people (including Christ) didn't have "zero" years either; they didn't become 1 year old *AFTER* their 1st year *passed*, but were "of the 1st year" the *moment* they were born. A person's birth year IS that person's "year 1" of life, until their first birthday when they enter "year 2". When a kingdom is established it's "year 1" of that kingdom; when Adam was created it was "year 1" of mankind. Christ was born (3 BC) and it was "year 1" of Christ; he was a yearling; he was 1. Seems weird to think of years this way for persons, but we're from a different culture.

...Now as far as this thread goes, I honestly don't know where to start first...you've presented so many good areas to dive into. So I'll just pick the Day of Atonement.

----

Let me state for the record that based on my own research & study I see Daniel's 70th week fulfilled in the ministry of Christ. But does the Day of Atonement fit into that ministry? I say, not in its entirety. To be more specific, I believe 1/2 the atonement ritual was fulfilled during Christ's first ministry, while the second half remains. There are a few reasons why I believe this.

1. Passover was always meant for the personal redemption of Israel's *firstborns* from death; the firstfruits unto God. While Day of Atonement was for the national judgment/cleansing of Israel sins and "complete removal". You and I already agree on "who" Israel is...even still, Passover is for the firstborns...Atonement is for the rest.

2. Passover occurred in the first month (a spring feast), while Day of Atonement occurred in the seventh month (a fall feast)...and Christ fulfilled each of the spring feasts on the very day each was appointed to occur, so it stands to reason that God will be consistent and fulfill the fall feasts on their exact days.

3. There are two works specifically detailed in the Day of Atonement: The Goat "for Yah" and the Goat for "la Azazel". The work of the first goat is the responsibility of the High Priest (Christ) as he bears the sin of the people (as representative) while he enters into the temple. He then kills the 1st goat (his body) and covers the furnishings with the pure blood.

...But then the High Priest presents the 2nd goal "alive" in front of God, transferring all sin from him onto the head of that goat, and then hands it over the responsibility to a man he's chosen who's "fit" for the task of leading the sin far away into the wilderness while he (the High Priest) remains *inside the temple* offering sacrifices. If the true temple is heaven, and the High Priest is Christ, then the "fit" man is someone else in the world who leads the sin away. I personally believe this to be the Elijah who must restore all things. Then the High Priest bathes, changes from his holy clothes to regular priestly clothes, leaves the holy place and joins the people (second coming)...when the "fit" man returns to the camp he also bathes and joins the people.

I think Charles L. Feinberg, Th.D., Ph.D did a pretty good, unbiased study of the scapegoat of Leviticus 16. Even though he more so agrees with your conclusion (that the entire ritual was fulfilled at Calvary), his study of the word "azazel" shows it more correctly means "for complete removal (as through a series of acts)".

http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted.../text/articles/feinberg-lev16scapegoat-bs.pdf, An Abstraction, PDF page 12-13

Of course, even if Day of Atonement is only partially fulfilled it doesn't mean we're doomed because Passover equals "personal redemption", and Christ fulfilled Passover.

[Next, I'm going to share my data when it comes to the timing of Christ's ministry and see if you agree or not.]

Nick1939 · Dec 4, 2013

HI ZONE, Don't Hangup and Frastreted All of you out there, Just Relax , and Trust the Lord,But when it cones to Dates and Years and times and Seasons,Leavet to the on the Unrevealed shelf of Det 29:29 for it is not for us to Know the Times and seasons, Which the Father has put in his Own POWER Acts1:7 But one thing is for sure that God hath to Fulfill his promise to them, Before he Blind them Rom 11:25. God bless.

zone · Dec 4, 2013

Nick1939 said:

thanks Nick....it is for us to know the times and seasons of what's recorded as already happening.
i'm not frustrated.

it's just a big subject.
fulfilled though....so the answers are already there.
as i said it doesn't matter to me ultimately what the closing marker of the 70th week was, simply that it was.
that part's not hard.

RuthHannah · Dec 4, 2013

zone said:

Do you think Jeremiah 51 has been fufilled already ?

Thanks

Yahshua · Dec 4, 2013

1. Christ was 29 going into his 30s when he began his ministry.

Luke 3:23

“And Jesus himself began to be about (ōsei) thirty years of age being as was supposed the son of Joseph which was the son of Heli”

The Greek word for “about” is “Peri”, which means “about; perimeter (of any size)”. However, the Greek word used in the above passage is “ōsei”, which is a specific (Greek) mathematical term meaning “nearing but before the point of (in order)” So Christ himself began nearing but before the point of thirty years of age during the time recorded in this passage.

2. The 2nd Temple began its reconstruction in 20/19 BC, as recorded by the historian Josephus. Temple of Herod < Click

While the passage John 2:20 says,

“Then said the Jews, Forty and six years [46 years] was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days!?”

19 BC + 46 years = 27 AD

Now even though it's true that there's no such thing as a "zero" year, forcing us to add another year to this math like this...

19 BC + 46 years + 1 (for "zero" year) = 28 AD

Remember there is no such thing as a "zero" year. 19 BC was "year 1" of the temple's building. So the math is really...

19 BC (i.e. year 1) + 45 (additional) years + 1 (for "zero" year) = 27 AD

So Christ was in his 29th year about to enter into his 30th year in 27 AD/CE, when he was baptized.

----

We can also travel backwards to the time of Christ's birth...

27 AD (29th/almost 30th year) - 29 years - 1 (for "zero" year) = 3 BC

This is confirmed by matching Roman records with scripture...

3/2 BC was the 25th Year of the Reign of Caesar Augustus when he decreed that Rome name him pater patriae (Father of the Country), a title which must be voted by all of his subjects through registration...it was approved in 2 BC.

(Res Gestae #35; Who was Who in Roman Times :Life and deeds of Augustus by Augustus)

Luke 2:1-2

“And it came to pass in those days that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed (apographesthai)”.

English translations of the above passage are in error, because the Greek word for “taxation census” is “Forologia”…but the Greek word used in this passage is a variation of the word “Apographó”, meaning “enrollment; registration”. So the passage more accurately reads "...that all the world should be registered/enrolled."

Christ's birth and baptism are now synchronized with secular timing (with more proofs from Tiberius Caesar and Josephus, if necessary).

[More markers to come...]

zone · Dec 4, 2013

Yahshua said:

okay...the pope or Constantine or someone else is the bad guy, we don't have dates because of the changing of the calendar.

again, i apologize for missing your reply to who thought to change times and laws and when it was fulfilled per Daniel.

if you have just the short answer for that, it'll help me understand your understanding of when Daniel was fulfilled.
just the short answer - i'm familiar with the concept.

Yahshua said:

perfect

Yahshua said:

okay

Yahshua said:

Let me state for the record that based on my own research & study

Click to expand...

Yahshua said:

I see Daniel's 70th week fulfilled in the ministry of Christ.

Click to expand...

alright. thanks for getting that upfront.
the rest then will be relatively simply for me to follow.

Yahshua said:

okay, looking forward to what you have....i'm wondering if we're not already set for something by assuming He fulfilled the wrong Passover. but sounds good.

Yahshua said:

john the baptist?
or you think there's an elijah yet to come?

i know this theory i believe, but anyways...perfect.

Yahshua said:

k.....i guess it's laid out in the link below?

Yahshua said:

what i meant was, if the 70th week was not fulfilled; we're doomed....that's when he was prophesied to come, no gap.
i know what you mean.

Yahshua said:

awesome.

it's that 70 weeks i'm wondering about.
thanks for posting.

and - just a quick (separate) post here somewhere if you could, about WHO you think fulfilled this:

Daniel 7:25
He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.

and when......cool

daughteroflight · Dec 4, 2013

"The law and the Prophets were until John." means something
to a wholehearted Christ believer....

Yahshua · Dec 4, 2013

zone said:

I don't think it's ever a *specific* person (as our war isn't with flesh & blood), but the Office of Pontifex Maximus (Lat. "Greatest High Priest"). First Constantine was he...then that office transferred to The Bishop of Rome.

zone said:

Yeah I believe the Lord's way must be prepared *each time* he makes an appearance, as a King must have his royal herald to lay out the red carpet so to say. So John was he during the first appearance and another is yet to come (could also be a "ministry" of people this time around, but who knows)...but that's just my belief.

70th week fulfilled

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