"Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

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1

1still_waters

Guest
#1
#1
"Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

In your opinion, is the directive for women to remain silent in the churches still for today as seen in the verses below?
Did it cease?
Was it for a certain time and place, and is no longer applicable for today?

If you're a cessationist on this issue, why?
If you're a continuist on this issue, why?

Please stay on topic.

1 Cor 14
As in all the churches of the saints, [SUP]34 [/SUP]the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. [SUP]35 [/SUP]If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached? [SUP]37 [/SUP]If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. [SUP]38 [/SUP]If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. [SUP]39 [/SUP]So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. [SUP]40 [/SUP]But all things should be done decently and in order.
 
N

NiceneCreed

Guest
#2
#2
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Romans 16:1-7

Galatians 3:28

Luke 19:40
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#3
#3
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

NiceneCreed said:
Romans 16:1-7

Galatians 3:28

Luke 19:40
Click to expand...
Are you saying those verses indicate 1 Cor 14: 34-40 was only for a certain time and place and has ceased?
 
N

NiceneCreed

Guest
#4
#4
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

1still_waters said:
In your opinion, is the directive for women to remain silent in the churches still for today as seen in the verses below?
Did it cease?
Was it for a certain time and place, and is no longer applicable for today?

If you're a cessationist on this issue, why?
If you're a continuist on this issue, why?

Please stay on topic.

1 Cor 14
As in all the churches of the saints, [SUP]34 [/SUP]the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. [SUP]35 [/SUP]If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached? [SUP]37 [/SUP]If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. [SUP]38 [/SUP]If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. [SUP]39 [/SUP]So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. [SUP]40 [/SUP]But all things should be done decently and in order.
Click to expand...
P.S. I am not quite sure if the terms 'Cessationist' or 'Continuationist' apply to this particular context of women either being permitted or not being permitted to teach within the church. If you meant by your comment that perhaps it was at one time unacceptable for women to teach within the church -- with all due respect -- should I then infer from your comment you believe 'Complementarianism' to be biblical, as opposed to 'Egalitariansim'?
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#5
#5
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

NiceneCreed said:
P.S. I am not quite sure if the terms 'Cessationist' or 'Continuationist' apply to this particular context of women either being permitted or not being permitted to teach within the church. If you meant by your comment that perhaps it was at one time unacceptable for women to teach within the church -- with all due respect -- should I then infer from your comment you believe 'Complementarianism' to be biblical, as opposed to 'Egalitariansim'?
Click to expand...

Do you believe the verses below still apply today?
1 Cor 14
As in all the churches of the saints, [SUP]34 [/SUP]the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. [SUP]35 [/SUP]If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached? [SUP]37 [/SUP]If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. [SUP]38 [/SUP]If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. [SUP]39 [/SUP]So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. [SUP]40 [/SUP]But all things should be done decently and in order.
Click to expand...
 
N

NiceneCreed

Guest
#6
#6
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

1still_waters said:
Are you saying those verses indicate 1 Cor 14: 34-40 was only for a certain time and place and has ceased?
Click to expand...
I think it refers to all times and all places; however, that being said, I believe Paul was not saying women were not permitted to teach within the church. Rather, Paul was saying if women had any questions for their husbands pertaining to scripture they didn't understand, instead of interrupting church services, they should remain silent until they had the opportunity to ask their husbands at home.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#7
#7
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

NiceneCreed said:
I think it refers to all times and all places; however, that being said, I believe Paul was not saying women were not permitted to teach within the church. Rather, Paul was saying if women had any questions for their husbands pertaining to scripture they didn't understand, instead of interrupting church services, they should remain silent until they had the opportunity to ask their husbands at home.
Click to expand...
Gotcha. Thanks.
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#8
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
689
113
#8
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

1still_waters said:
1 Cor 14
As in all the churches of the saints, [SUP]34 [/SUP]the women should keep silent in the churches.
Click to expand...
Verse 33 above is quoted out of context. It doesn't go with verse 34.

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 1 Corinthians 14:33
​
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#9
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
689
113
#9
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Was there more than one assembly of believers in Corinth?
 
N

NiceneCreed

Guest
#10
#10
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

HeRoseFromTheDead said:
Was there more than one assembly of believers in Corinth?
Click to expand...
I would imagine there must have been. Yet, I am not entirely sure of the historical-cultural context.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#11
#11
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

HeRoseFromTheDead said:
Verse 33 above is quoted out of context. It doesn't go with verse 34.
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 1 Corinthians 14:33
​
Click to expand...
The ESV puts it this way.

1 Cor 14
As in all the churches of the saints, [SUP]34 [/SUP]the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. [SUP]35 [/SUP]If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached? [SUP]37 [/SUP]If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. [SUP]38 [/SUP]If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. [SUP]39 [/SUP]So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. [SUP]40 [/SUP]But all things should be done decently and in order.
 
W

Witness45

Guest
#12
#12
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

I once heard a bible history describe it as follows:

"The women who were meant to remain silent in churches were quote was do to a lack of education and a continuation of the typical Jewish synagogue form of worship that carried over into the early Christian church. The Jews at the time attended the synagogue with the Men on the right, and Women on the left. Typically no one would speak during the service and everyone would simply pay attention to the Rabbi. This form of worship was carried over into the early Christian church, however the Christians were slightly more radical in allowing more of a slight group discussion as well as a question answer session. However at the time, only men were educated and were able to read and had a deeper knowledge of scripture where as women simply had a baseline understanding of Jewish Law (Do this, don't do that mentality). Therefore in Paul's time, there were many women in the early Christian church who would stand up and ask many questions and even attempt to debate with very little knowledge of scripture. This disrupted the service and made it difficult for the preacher to preach his sermon or get across his message. Essentially what Paul's message was when saying 'Women should be silent in churches' is simply that due to their lack of education that women posses at the time, they shouldn't disrupt the sermon with many questions and should rather receive any answers they need from a fellow believer afterwards."

Now I was paraphrasing what he said, and I don't know how true it is but it seems like the most logical answer to me. It's not as much 'It was a command from God but it's over now' as much as it was a specific issue that needed to be addressed at the times, similar to how abortion is an issue simply of our times and not of theirs...
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#13
#13
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

So the consensus interpretation so far is that this is saying women can't ask questions in church, and that this is still for today?
 
N

nathan3

Guest
#14
#14
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

1still_waters said:
In your opinion, is the directive for women to remain silent in the churches still for today as seen [/FONT][/COLOR]
Click to expand...

This is probably the most repeated threads. I'm going to post and, that will be my one and final post in this thread.


I Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law."

Where does the law say this? The way that this is brought forth in the Greek makes this a figure of speech. This is very often mis-taught.

I Corinthians 14:35 "And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for woman to speak in the church."

When you read something of this nature and you are only of the English tongue, it should be obvious that something is missing from the Greek. Back in I Corinthians 11:5, 13 we were told that women were to pray and prophesy in the church. However they were to have the veil over them, which is to say "Christ in them" all of the time. Now did Paul change his mind? Of course not. The course or figure of speech that this was written in the Greek is saying, "woman should not chatter in the church while the service is going on". However this applies to men also. No one should chatter in the church during the service, not the women, nor the men or even the children.

Remember that the whole church is the bride of Christ so the order is given in the feminine gender, but applies to the entire bride of Christ. This is why women get a bad rap when the men do the interpretation of the Word. Chatter is a distraction to the one teaching, and also to those who are trying to learn something that may be a bit difficult to understand with clarity. The course of the subject is to convey the message from God's Word and chatter interferes with that course.
 
Last edited:
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#15
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
689
113
#15
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

1still_waters said:
Originally Posted by HeRoseFromTheDead


Verse 33 above is quoted out of context. It doesn't go with verse 34.
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 1 Corinthians 14:33
​
Click to expand...
The ESV puts it this way.
Click to expand...
Sounds like a verse pregnant with potential for doctrinal bias...
 
E

Elin

Banned
#17
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#17
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

nathan3 said:
This is probably the most repeated threads. I'm going to post and, that will be my one and final post in this thread.

I Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law."

Where does the law say this?
Click to expand...
We find an example in Nu 30:10-13.

The way that this is brought forth in the Greek makes this a figure of speech. This is very often mis-taught.

I Corinthians 14:35 "And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for woman to speak in the church."
Click to expand...
Brought forth?

Speaking here may refer to offering their opinions or questions during teaching.

For the NT prohibits women from having authority over men in the church, as in teaching (1Ti 2:12).

It's about authority, not chatter.
 
N

NiceneCreed

Guest
#18
#18
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Witness45 said:
I once heard a bible history describe it as follows:

"The women who were meant to remain silent in churches were quote was do to a lack of education and a continuation of the typical Jewish synagogue form of worship that carried over into the early Christian church. The Jews at the time attended the synagogue with the Men on the right, and Women on the left. Typically no one would speak during the service and everyone would simply pay attention to the Rabbi. This form of worship was carried over into the early Christian church, however the Christians were slightly more radical in allowing more of a slight group discussion as well as a question answer session. However at the time, only men were educated and were able to read and had a deeper knowledge of scripture where as women simply had a baseline understanding of Jewish Law (Do this, don't do that mentality). Therefore in Paul's time, there were many women in the early Christian church who would stand up and ask many questions and even attempt to debate with very little knowledge of scripture. This disrupted the service and made it difficult for the preacher to preach his sermon or get across his message. Essentially what Paul's message was when saying 'Women should be silent in churches' is simply that due to their lack of education that women posses at the time, they shouldn't disrupt the sermon with many questions and should rather receive any answers they need from a fellow believer afterwards."

Now I was paraphrasing what he said, and I don't know how true it is but it seems like the most logical answer to me. It's not as much 'It was a command from God but it's over now' as much as it was a specific issue that needed to be addressed at the times, similar to how abortion is an issue simply of our times and not of theirs...
Click to expand...
Precisely. I studied this in one of my theology classes.:)
 
A

AmberGardner

Guest
#19
#19
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

What are the previous verses??


1 Corinthians 14:26 What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up.
27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two--or at the most three--should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret.
28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.
29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said.
30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop.
31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.
32 The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets.
33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace--as in all the congregations of the Lord's people.
Click to expand...
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#20
#20
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

nathan3 said:
This is probably the most repeated threads. I'm going to post and, that will be my one and final post in this thread.


I Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law."

Where does the law say this? The way that this is brought forth in the Greek makes this a figure of speech. This is very often mis-taught.

I Corinthians 14:35 "And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for woman to speak in the church."

When you read something of this nature and you are only of the English tongue, it should be obvious that something is missing from the Greek. Back in I Corinthians 11:5, 13 we were told that women were to pray and prophesy in the church. However they were to have the veil over them, which is to say "Christ in them" all of the time. Now did Paul change his mind? Of course not. The course or figure of speech that this was written in the Greek is saying, "woman should not chatter in the church while the service is going on". However this applies to men also. No one should chatter in the church during the service, not the women, nor the men or even the children.

Remember that the whole church is the bride of Christ so the order is given in the feminine gender, but applies to the entire bride of Christ. This is why women get a bad rap when the men do the interpretation of the Word. Chatter is a distraction to the one teaching, and also to those who are trying to learn something that may be a bit difficult to understand with clarity. The course of the subject is to convey the message from God's Word and chatter interferes with that course.
Click to expand...
But the text seems to indicate it's about more than asking questions.

If it were just about not asking questions, he would have said women shouldn't ask questions.
But he goes beyond that. He says things like..

For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

Also if asking questions was disruptive, why does he only apply it to women?
Why not to men too?

People seem quite ok with Paul saying women can't even ask questions in church.



1 Cor 14
As in all the churches of the saints, [SUP]34 [/SUP]the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. [SUP]35 [/SUP]If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached? [SUP]37 [/SUP]If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. [SUP]38 [/SUP]If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. [SUP]39 [/SUP]So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. [SUP]40 [/SUP]But all things should be done decently and in order.
 
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