Rapture - Satan's Great Lie
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what is hour of temptation exactly?why is this given a separate title than tribulation.why does Christ say not to be deceived and by what?Why does he even mention if they say there is Christ believe them not?Is the devil not crafty enough to stage a false Christ that will fool many even the elect if possible?I don't care to argue about this,just some thoughts.God bless all.
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Blain, who was Revelation 3:10 written to? What do you think it means when Jesus says "I will keep you?" Frankly your verse does not prove a pri-trib rapture. This was written to the Philadelphia Church, a real 1st century church under intense persecution from Jews and the Romans. The Jews sought after Christians, especially Jews converted to Christians, because they were defectors. The Romans sought after the Christians because they wouldn't bow a knee to Caesar and call him Lord. Jesus is telling the Philadelphia Christians that if they keep His command to persevere, which means not to cave into the pressure and compromise their beliefs, Christ will keep them from falling, He'll keep them from compromising, keep them from faltering in the moment of trial. This has nothing to do with a pre-trib rapture. READ the whole thing Blain, and pay close attention too; I come quickly, hold fast to what you have, that know one may take your crown. He those who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God...Why overcome, because the reward is great in the city of God, New Jerusalem=Heaven.
Application for today, In Christ you can to resist the wiles of the devil, worldly persecution, you can persevere in Christ if you remain in Him. Christ will keep you in times of trouble and trial, rather then be broken by the opposition. Say focused on Him and you'll escape the flames of the evil one, In Christ you are victorious and an overcomer: You will to receive a new name in the new Jerusalem/Heaven.
Application for today, In Christ you can to resist the wiles of the devil, worldly persecution, you can persevere in Christ if you remain in Him. Christ will keep you in times of trouble and trial, rather then be broken by the opposition. Say focused on Him and you'll escape the flames of the evil one, In Christ you are victorious and an overcomer: You will to receive a new name in the new Jerusalem/Heaven.
Hi Plainword - I have a different view on things like this because I will not base any of my conclusions on Parables or allegorical statements. The reason for my not basing doctrinal points on parables is that a parable is scripturally and specifically used to conceal the truth not reveal it, as Jesus told us in Matt 13:11-12 and John 12:40.
I would like to tell you from the beginning that to understand what I think about doctrinal points a person needs to consciously suspend their traditional viewpoints while considering my teachings.
There are two Comings of the Lord. The first was when Jesus died on the cross. The second is when He comes to participate in our salvation.
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. This is a foundational and necessary understanding and is seen in the following video.
Here is some material that you may find interesting with regard to the "Rapture" doctrine -
http://brmicke.yolasite.com/rapture-parable-explanation.php
[video=youtube;mXsFYPG2lus]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXsFYPG2lus[/video]
Respectfully - Brian
I would like to tell you from the beginning that to understand what I think about doctrinal points a person needs to consciously suspend their traditional viewpoints while considering my teachings.
There are two Comings of the Lord. The first was when Jesus died on the cross. The second is when He comes to participate in our salvation.
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. This is a foundational and necessary understanding and is seen in the following video.
Here is some material that you may find interesting with regard to the "Rapture" doctrine -
http://brmicke.yolasite.com/rapture-parable-explanation.php
[video=youtube;mXsFYPG2lus]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXsFYPG2lus[/video]
Respectfully - Brian
The video froze part way through but I certainly agreed with your main thrust. There is no rapture. Let's take this a step further, Paul takes a inclusive approach to both 1 Thes 4 and 2 Thes 2:
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you...
As you can see Paul cannot put himself in both groups, the Raptured group and the group that make it to the Day of the Lord. Therefore Paul has to be describing the same event in both passages. If Paul is including himself in the above, then he is also including himself in the 1 Cor 15 passage:
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Rapture apologists MUST treat the Church differently than Israel otherwise their theory collapses. Because they treat the two separately they can have two future returns of the Lord. But Paul could not be Raptured and last until the end. He cannot be in both groups, therefore there is just one group.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you...
As you can see Paul cannot put himself in both groups, the Raptured group and the group that make it to the Day of the Lord. Therefore Paul has to be describing the same event in both passages. If Paul is including himself in the above, then he is also including himself in the 1 Cor 15 passage:
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Rapture apologists MUST treat the Church differently than Israel otherwise their theory collapses. Because they treat the two separately they can have two future returns of the Lord. But Paul could not be Raptured and last until the end. He cannot be in both groups, therefore there is just one group.
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N
If the rapture Is at the end of the tribulation at the 7th trumpet wouldn't that make the rapture predictable? No man knows the day or hour...and he comes as a thief in the night.
Zechariah 14:5 says when Jesus comes back all the saints will be with him...if I'm a saint and your a saint how can we be here on earth when Jesus plants his feet on the mount of olives? When it says ALL THE SAINTS are coming back with him. So now theres a lie in the bible?. This proves at some point that the church (saints) all had to either die and be resurrected, or be caught up and taken to heaven where Jesus is. But that's not the case cause Paul said those that are alive will be changed. And why would we be caught up and then turn right back around to come back with Christ. Couldn't we just be changed right where we stand and still carry out Jesus's kingdom?
Zechariah 14:5 says when Jesus comes back all the saints will be with him...if I'm a saint and your a saint how can we be here on earth when Jesus plants his feet on the mount of olives? When it says ALL THE SAINTS are coming back with him. So now theres a lie in the bible?. This proves at some point that the church (saints) all had to either die and be resurrected, or be caught up and taken to heaven where Jesus is. But that's not the case cause Paul said those that are alive will be changed. And why would we be caught up and then turn right back around to come back with Christ. Couldn't we just be changed right where we stand and still carry out Jesus's kingdom?
Thanks for your interest and contribution to this discussion. You ask good questions. Let me see if I can help.
The key words here are day or hour. That is correct, we will not know the day or hour. Armageddon will be the largest battle ever seen on earth. The 6th bowl describes Satan gathering his forces to the battle. This will be a process that will take days, weeks or perhaps months. Christ will return at some point for this battle so we do not know the day or hour but we certainly will know the season. The thief in the night concept describing the Lord's return appears in multiple passages, Mat 24:43, Luke 12:39, 1 Thes 5:2, 2 Peter 3:10, Rev 3:3. The Pre-Trib believer consider these to be describing the Rapture and not the Second Coming of the Lord. If we are to ignore that Jesus is clearly discussing His second coming earlier in Mat 24:28-32 and that His "Thief" comments apply to this return as He never discusses an early Rapture return, we still have Rev 16:15 which is clearly Second Coming Advent Return. This return is for the Battle of Armageddon and it happens just after the 6th Bowl:
4 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."
16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.
So clearly the Lord is describing one return and it is AFTER the Tribulation as He says and as Paul says and as John says. Nowhere in the events of Revelation do we see another, earlier return discussed.
There is no lie in the Bible, just misunderstanding of TRUTH. Yes, the Saints will be with Jesus when he returns. We are clearly taught that we are gathered in the clouds or air, and we are changed. Nowhere does it say we go back to heaven!!! Since it appears obvious that there is just one return and the Lord comes to stay and reign, He must bring us back down to earth with Him. That is the far more obvious conclusion than to round up everyone in heaven, bring them to the clouds of earth just to meet us who are alive then to all go back to heaven, wait 7 years, then come back down.
The Rapture theory violates a whole bunch of passages and doctrines, more than it supposedly resolves. But that is another topic for another day.
The key words here are day or hour. That is correct, we will not know the day or hour. Armageddon will be the largest battle ever seen on earth. The 6th bowl describes Satan gathering his forces to the battle. This will be a process that will take days, weeks or perhaps months. Christ will return at some point for this battle so we do not know the day or hour but we certainly will know the season. The thief in the night concept describing the Lord's return appears in multiple passages, Mat 24:43, Luke 12:39, 1 Thes 5:2, 2 Peter 3:10, Rev 3:3. The Pre-Trib believer consider these to be describing the Rapture and not the Second Coming of the Lord. If we are to ignore that Jesus is clearly discussing His second coming earlier in Mat 24:28-32 and that His "Thief" comments apply to this return as He never discusses an early Rapture return, we still have Rev 16:15 which is clearly Second Coming Advent Return. This return is for the Battle of Armageddon and it happens just after the 6th Bowl:
4 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."
16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.
So clearly the Lord is describing one return and it is AFTER the Tribulation as He says and as Paul says and as John says. Nowhere in the events of Revelation do we see another, earlier return discussed.
There is no lie in the Bible, just misunderstanding of TRUTH. Yes, the Saints will be with Jesus when he returns. We are clearly taught that we are gathered in the clouds or air, and we are changed. Nowhere does it say we go back to heaven!!! Since it appears obvious that there is just one return and the Lord comes to stay and reign, He must bring us back down to earth with Him. That is the far more obvious conclusion than to round up everyone in heaven, bring them to the clouds of earth just to meet us who are alive then to all go back to heaven, wait 7 years, then come back down.
The Rapture theory violates a whole bunch of passages and doctrines, more than it supposedly resolves. But that is another topic for another day.
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2 Thes 1:6-
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. 11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling,
Dear Pre-Trib Believer,
Why is Paul telling the Thessalonian Christians that they won't get their rest until the Mighty Day of the Lord which of course is after the Tribulation instead of telling them they will be raptured before the Tribulation? Clearly the event Paul describes agrees completely with the Second Advent that John describes in Rev 19:
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations.
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. 11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling,
Dear Pre-Trib Believer,
Why is Paul telling the Thessalonian Christians that they won't get their rest until the Mighty Day of the Lord which of course is after the Tribulation instead of telling them they will be raptured before the Tribulation? Clearly the event Paul describes agrees completely with the Second Advent that John describes in Rev 19:
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations.