PlainWord,
First of all, would you do me a favor? All that bold red font gives me a headache and hurts my eyes...so would it be possible for you to lose the bold red and use a color that isn't so bright?
Secondly, I have heard those same arguments and seen those same Scriptures posts on many forums and although you have made some good points, you are not rightly dividing the word of truth. Do you believe that the church is Israel?
Thirdly, in the almost 40 years that I've been saved, I'm not about to change my mind about my beliefs. I believe in a pre-tribulation rapture of the body of Christ. The tribulation period, which is 7 years, according to Daniel 9:24-27, is God's wrath (not man's) poured out on the Christ rejecting world, His judgment on the nation of Israel and to resume His purposes with the nation Israel and will fulfill all the Old Testament promises and prophecies concerning them (Romans 11:25-27).
You quoted Matthew 16:28....that verse was fulfilled at the Mount of Transfiguration. (Matthew 17:1-9)
1 Thessalonians 4:15 does not say those who are "alive and remain until after the tribulation". The entire epistle to the Thessalonians was a letter of "comfort" and encouragement to those believers who were going through alot of tribulation (not THE tribulation).
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
The "coming of the Lord" does not mean the second coming. If you would read the entire passage in context, you would see that those who are "alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord" would not precede those who are "asleep in Christ" (believers who had died before the rapture would come). In verse 16, the Apostle Paul states (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) that "the Lord HIMSELF shall descend FROM heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:......" The "dead in Christ" will be resurrected first. Then who will will be "caught up" with those who had been resurrected? And where will those who are "caught UP" meet the Lord"? Where does the Lord go after He "catches up" church age believers...and I believe the end of the verse says "and so shall we ever be with the Lord."(vs. 17) It is obvious that the church age believers have gone to heaven. The passage says nothing about the Lord returning to earth WITH His bride. So, obviously they are all in heaven. Those that are "alive and remain" are those who are IN CHRIST.
Now here comes the clincher....."Wherefore, comfort one another with these words" (vs. 18). If the Apostle Paul had been speaking of the tribulation, then he would be lying about being comforted "by these words."
Dear Sister in Christ, Linda,
I get it, my mom and dad are both 74. My dad was a Baptist minister for 18 years. He taught and they both still believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture. I believed it too until I was about 30 then questioned it for roughly 10 years. Old beliefs and traditions don't die easy, so I get it. But it doesn't make the Pre-Trib Rapture a fact.
The biggest issue to me is
nowhere does Jesus ever discuss it with anyone, including His disciples. So either Jesus didn't know He'd be coming back for a Rapture (which seems unlikely since He is God) or He withheld that information from His disciples (which would make John 15:15 a lie). When I say "discuss" I mean "teach it." It is the Lord Jesus who is to return and yet He doesn't mention a word about coming
BEFORE the Tribulation and He doesn't even hint that he is going to remove the Church
BEFORE the tribulation. Instead,
when specifically asked by His disciples, "What will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age" (Mat 24:3), Jesus doesn't say that He is coming back twice or that any of His followers will get a free pass!!
Instead, the Lord promises persecution for His followers. Jesus tells His disciples that they will be "delivered up to tribulation and killed." He promises false Christs and false prophets. He warns us NOT to be deceived. He gives signs of things that will proceed the Great Tribulation. But the biggest sign and the event that allegedly is supposed to happen right BEFORE the tribulation (per your belief) is the Rapture. Yet the Lord Jesus doesn't utter a word about it. We don't see the slightest hint of a Rapture in any of the three Olivet Discourse accounts. NOT ONE BREATH OF IT!! Doesn't that concern you just a little?
Jesus speaks of one return and makes clear that it is
AFTER the Tribulation of those days. Paul places the timing AFTER the A/C is revealed. Jesus even tells when and where He is coming in relation to what John later reveals in Revelation. See Luke 17 (I'll use blue for you when quoting scripture):
37 And they answered and said to Him, "Where, Lord?" So He said to them, "Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together."
This reference is also in Mat 24 and Rev 19.
This is describing the Birds that come to eat the bodies following the Battle of Armageddon. The gathering for Armageddon happens at the 6th Bowl. Rev 19 is of course the only place in Revelation where the Lord is clearly shown coming to earth. I am going to paste below the pertinent passages from Rev 19:
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron.
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,
18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great."
21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.
The above events are consistent with Zech 13-14, Ezek 38-39. The Lord comes on the clouds with the armies in heaven. The dead in Christ come with Him. He gathers those of us who are alive and remain from the Tribulation and takes us to be with Him in Zion. We are changed in the air to our spiritual bodies and together we fight and destroy the Beast/Satan and the dark forces at Armageddon. We can't stay in heaven during Armageddon because "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." Therefore all Dead in Christ must return to earth when He does.
Why bring all the dead from heaven for a rapture to just return them to heaven then bring them again 7 years later? It doesn't make any sense?
Do you believe that the church is Israel
I do
NOT believe in Replacement Theology specifically because of Romans 11, which you cite. Paul makes clear that the Gentile believers (Church) are to be
"grafted in" with the Jewish nation, it is not the other way around. Paul even warns us, "not to get haughty" because we will allowed in to make the Jews jealous. Jesus himself said, "Salvation is of the Jews." We get to heaven through the Jewish Messiah. This is the key lesson here.
I believe that once Israel became a Nation that the "time of the Gentiles" has been fulfilled. This happened in 1948 or 1967. Since that point, I believe the Gentile Church and the Jewish nation are considered ONE olive tree.
I believe the Bride of Christ is
ALL of HIS people, believing Jews and Gentiles alike, both dead and remaining. Therefore we ALL need to be found worthy and tested for our faith.
There is NO WAY CHRIST'S bride is only the church. The gates are named after the 12 tribes of Israel. Not one gate is named after Martin Luther, or Billy Graham or Rick Warren or Chuck Smith or Joseph Smith or any other church leader you can name. See Rev 21:
9 ..."Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife."
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal.
12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel...
Zech 13 clearly proves the Jews will be tested:
8 And it shall come to pass in all the land," Says the Lord, "That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die, But one-third shall be left in it:
9 I will bring the one-third through the fire, Will refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them. I will say, 'This is My people'; And each one will say, 'The Lord is my God.' "
I believe we are taught the Church also will be tested. John makes this clear when he addressed the 7 churches. This is what John tells the 7 churches:
Ephesus - I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place--unless you repent. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God
Smyrna-He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.
Pergamos-Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the
sword of My mouth.To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it."
Thyatira-And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her
into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am
He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works. 24 Now to you I say, and to the rest in Thyatira, as many as do not have this doctrine, who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I will put on you no other burden. 25
But hold fast what you have till I come. 26 And he who overcomes, and
keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations-- 27 '
He shall rule them with a rod of iron
I want to stop here and point out that the 7 churches must represent churches of today and not just the church of Philadelphia which of course is the only church promised to be "kept" from the hour of temptation. The Church of Thyatira was specifically told she will be cast into GREAT tribulation, not just tribulation. But if they "Hold Fast until (Jesus) comes, they will be given power over nations when He (Jesus) rules these nations with a rod of iron. This happens only at the end of the Tribulation and during the Millennium. The Church at Pergamos will fight them with the sword of His mouth which is the same desciption we see of the Lord in Rev 19 return.
Notice no promise of Rapture for these churches?
Pre-Trib is based on misinterpretation of scriptures. All descriptions of the Lord's return refer to the one and only return. Everything is consistent. There is no room for the Pre-Trib Rapture in the Bible because of multiple violations of other passages and doctrines, many of which I already discussed. You can not point to one inconsistency in the One Return at the End of the Trib Doctrine that I can't explain for you. I hope this helps and may God Bless and Keep you. We can disagree but we are all Brothers and Sisters in Christ.
