Rich Man & Lazarus

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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#41
Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried
i read the whole post - shortened here.

i can agree with pretty much all of your OP.

but where's the 1,000 year kingdom?:)

you have the joy of the saved and the torment of the wicked at the Second Coming - which i agree with - the Resurrection to eternal life or eternal hell.

do you mean the bad guys are thrown into outer darkness for the 1,000 years while the saints reign in New Jerusalem above the earth?

not trying to mix up your threads or diss this one at all, just trying to reconcile the events.

the weeping and gnashing of teeth is mentioned here: Second Coming - wheat and tares gathered at same time, just like goats and sheep at same time.

Matthew 13:42
41"The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43"Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

:confused:

k....t.y.
 
Sep 7, 2013
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#42
i read the whole post - shortened here.

i can agree with pretty much all of your OP.

but where's the 1,000 year kingdom?:)

you have the joy of the saved and the torment of the wicked at the Second Coming - which i agree with - the Resurrection to eternal life or eternal hell.

do you mean the bad guys are thrown into outer darkness for the 1,000 years while the saints reign in New Jerusalem above the earth?

not trying to mix up your threads or diss this one at all, just trying to reconcile the events.

the weeping and gnashing of teeth is mentioned here: Second Coming - wheat and tares gathered at same time, just like goats and sheep at same time.

Matthew 13:42
41"The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43"Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

:confused:

k....t.y.
The thousand yrs are not here, this parable ends at the second coming as many do. The sheep and goats parable, the wheat and tares, the virgins with no oil, etc...all end at the second coming.

Outer darkness, according the the Greek meaning, it should maybe better be translated as something like "outside the place where the light is". I believe it simply symbolizes the barrier we see in the other parables where the good guys on one side and the tormented bad guys on the other.
 

Shilo

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2011
1,974
102
63
#43
Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Psalms 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish

John 11:11-14 ...Our friend Lazarus sleepeth;but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

People who have gone to the grave are sleeping and have no thoughts so they can not be talking to each other

.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#44
Why are you trying to put me in a box. Why can't you simply address any part of my study with a specific reason that you may think I am wrong with the scripture to back your logic. Attacking me personally and trying to label me instead of having a Bible discussion does not profit either of us.
danschance is like that. He likes to attack those who disagree with him. He seems to have a passion for being critical to SDA. He will tell you that you are wrong and will offer an opinion but, does not address the Bible texts
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#45
If the story is real then Jesus would have contradicted himself when he said that people are rewarded when he returns.
Matthew 16:27
(27) for the son of man shall come in the glory of his father with his angels; and
then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Matthew 25:31-33
(31)
when the son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
(32) and before him shall be gathered all nations: and
he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
(33) and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Matthew 25:34
(34) then shall the king say unto them on his right hand, come, ye blessed of my father,
inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Matthew 25:41
(41) then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,
depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 22:12
(12) and, behold, i come quickly; and
my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
 
Sep 7, 2013
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#46
danschance is like that. He likes to attack those who disagree with him. He seems to have a passion for being critical to SDA. He will tell you that you are wrong and will offer an opinion but, does not address the Bible texts
ya' think? :p

the comment by him that killed me the most was in another thread about the Sabbath. he called Sabbath observance a man made law. how do you start to respond to something so incredibly inaccurate?
 
Mar 10, 2013
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#47
HI Kadamw. I have a question for you.

Do you think there is any possibility that you might be wrong?
 
Sep 7, 2013
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#48
HI Kadamw. I have a question for you.

Do you think there is any possibility that you might be wrong?
on certain details of this study? absolutely.

but it being a parable and the gulf and the similar scriptures that have the same imagery no not at all.

this was a bugger for me i wrote a study on this parable about ten yrs ago. it bugged me majorly that it seemed so unique. i just didn't see it. i had a bit of a revelation one day when reviewing it. it hit me ...it wasn't unique but actually repetitive once i saw the similarities i was amazed how obvious it was. alot of things that had no place now fit together, not just this parable but many prophecies and parables. i was amazed that suddenly i could see the second coming all over the place.

even in worldy things, i suddenly saw how many movies and books borrowed Biblical concepts. anyway nothing has been the same since.
 
D

danschance

Guest
#49
If the story is real then Jesus would have contradicted himself when he said that people are rewarded when he returns.
Matthew 16:27
(27) for the son of man shall come in the glory of his father with his angels; and
then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Matthew 25:31-33
(31)
when the son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
(32) and before him shall be gathered all nations: and
he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
(33) and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Matthew 25:34
(34) then shall the king say unto them on his right hand, come, ye blessed of my father,
inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Matthew 25:41
(41) then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,
depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 22:12
(12) and, behold, i come quickly; and
my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Wow, talk about taking scripture out of context!

Being in Heaven is not the reward Jesus is speaking of here (Matt 16:27 and Rev. 22:12). The reward Jesus is speaking of will be according to each man's works. Salvation is not based on works! (Please note the scripture below is actual scripture and not my opinion, OK?)

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. Eph. 2:8-9
Then you compare apples to oranges when you attempt to post the above scriptures with Matt 25. Matt. 25 is about Judgment day. I really hate how you trifle with scriptures and twist them to fit however you wish. Knit one pearl two, get a bigger hammer to drive that square peg into the round hole..

Now here is food for thought: Why would Jesus talk about spirits in the after life if spirits can not survive death? Why would He tell us a story with false doctrine in it?

Now your buddy KAdamW simply turns it all into a bunch of metaphors by associating one scripture out of context to elements with this story to "prove it is some bizarre convoluted story about moral truths, warning the Jews and some twisted prophetic glimpses (None of his assertions are ever mentioned in scripture about his opinions, btw. They spilled out of his imagination.)

Why would Jesus tell a story that includes false doctrine of spirits surviving death? Isn't that the same as lying?

Square-Peg-1.jpg
 
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Sep 7, 2013
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#50
Wow, talk about taking scripture out of context!
dan you have been pleaded with to address any area of this study with specific scripture and how that scripture is able to debunk my logic and references. all you have done is insult and say that i'm wrong. why post at all in a Bible discussion forum when all you really want to do is aggressively insult others and tell them they are wrong? that belongs in a people bashing forum. i would think believers deserve a little effort and responses that don't attack character. so please unless you can do that do not bother posting to me or on my threads again.

thank you.
 
L

LT

Guest
#51
I don't agree with the OP, but I think his point is well thought out, and balanced. Needless to say, danschance is WAY out of line. Think before posting, brother, and be "slow to speak""slow to be angry".

This IS a parable, but it may also be the telling of a real story. I highly doubt that Abraham speaks to the damned very often. The whole thing may be purely symbolic, as it sounds very similar to images in the book of Enoch. Jesus used cultural images to make points very often.

On the other hand, I see proof throughout scripture that: there is torment before the Final Judgement, and paradise before the reward of Heaven.

Either way, it has more than one level of truth within it, like all parables.
Also, just because it is a parable doesn't mean it's not an actual story. I'm sure a farmer actually spread seed in a few bad spots at one point... lol. Mustard seeds really do grow into trees.

This is the last story in a series of parables. It is pretty obvious that this one is different than the others, both in mood and in setting. I have a feeling this story is both parabolic and true. < I can't prove that 2nd one though.
 
B

BeanieD

Guest
#52
I really don't belileve this is a portrait of the second coming, rather that it is showing us the consequences of our life and how we choose to live it. What is going to happen with us, where we would be, if we refuse to accept God and Jesus and live our lives accordingly. I pretty much see them as warnings just as Isreal was warned, about a lie of sin.

Blessings
 
R

Rickee

Guest
#53
Rich Man & Lazarus
Luke 16:19-31


Introduction

This area of scripture is consistently under debate, both in interpretation and form. For the most part, the “form” is guilty of the differences in interpretation. What is meant by “form” is, that there are two very divided manners in which this passage is generally taken.

1) Many feel this is a literal story of an event that had already occurred, (literal/historical form). 2) There are also, many who feel this is a parable of a prophetic event, and/or instructional parable, (parabolic/symbolic form).

This discourse began, (Luke 14:1-17:10), by Jesus after He’d arrived to eat at the house of one of the chief Pharisees, with other Pharisees and lawyers were present, (Luke 14:3). After questioning them directly on matters of law, they remained silent. Jesus responded to their silence with a parable, (Luke 14:7-11).

In this parable he hints at elements of “the rich man and Lazarus”, there is a meal in which we aren’t to exalt ourselves, by going before the master in the house’s highest room. Instead we are to “shame” ourselves and begin in the lowest room. He then follows that parable with a relative statement that also hints strongly of the story of the “rich man and Lazarus”. Here is what he said;

“ Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee. But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind:” (Luke 14:12-13)

Immediately after Jesus repeats himself, in parable form, Luke 14:16-24.
Why is Jesus speaking to them in parable?

"And the disciples came, and said unto Him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. …All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake He not unto them" (Mat 13:10-11,34).

When speaking to the scribes and Pharisees, as He was in Luke 15 &16, He never spoke the mysteries of His kingdom to them except in parables. The words of Luke 15:3 set the precedence, "He spake this parable to them...”, they established what Jesus said thereafter would be in parable.

Please note, that He was speaking to those who murmured against Him, (Luke 15:2) and they continued to listen and scoff at him, (Luke 16:14). After their eavesdropping was made plain He began speaking directly to them again, (Luke 16:15). The first indication that He changed His focus was in Luke 17:1. At that point it seems He spoke only to His disciples.

Chapter 16 of Luke is about stewardship, yet some seem locked in to the idea that this passage(v.19-31) holds literal clues to the state of the dead and/or heaven and hell.

If one were to take every Biblical parable literally, we would find plenty of items that would be difficult to explain in literal terms. Such as in Jdg. 9:7-15, Jotham spoke in a parable that was completely imaginary, about talking trees and brambles.

Also, in Eze. 23:1-4, he records the Parable of Two Sisters, in which proper names are used in parabolic symbolism. As you can see, it would not be sensible to give literal equivalents to symbolic terms used in a fictitious parable.

Jesus was never recorded using the phrases “a certain man”, (Greek = tis anthros), or “a certain rich man”, (Greek = tis plousios anthros), except in parable. Even though not one author ever recorded him using either phrase outside of parables some still maintain that Luke 16:19 is the exception. Even more compelling is, the only 3 times “a certain rich man” was used, was by Jesus, and all 3 only recorded by Luke.

The Parable

Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, making good cheer in splendour every day.

Remember, He’s speaking to the Pharisee’s and this “rich man” is portrayed wearing clothing of the High Priest of the Israelite people(Exo. 28:5).


Luke 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luke 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.


Here we see the beggar down with the dogs, waiting for crumbs to fall from the rich man’s table. These same symbolic terms have been used by Christ before, which helps reveal the identity of the beggar, the crumbs, and the rich man.

Matt. 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. 27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters table.

Here we see that the Gentile lady is being symbolized as the “dogs”, the “crumbs of bread” as the gospel message, and the “masters“ as the Israelites/Jews.

Remember, the bread is the word, and Christ is the “bread”, (John 6:35). Christ came to minister to the Israelites, (Mat. 15:24, 1Cor. 9:20), yet this Gentile woman was asking Christ to share himself. Like the beggar, she was desiring “crumbs” from the “masters” table.

The Israelites were spiritually rich, (Luke 6:24-25, Rom. 11:12), for they had the one true message of God, and they had been commissioned to take the Word to the Gentiles, (Isa. 49:6).

Isa. 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, FOR A LIGHT OF THE GENTILES;

But, they didn’t spread the message, they hoarded it instead. Remember, the focus of Luke 16 is stewardship. They failed to be good stewards with the Word that God had entrusted to them. They considered Gentiles to be lower than them. “Dogs” and “unclean” were terms used when speaking of them, (Act 10:28, Mark 7:27-28, Matt. 15:26,27).

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
“It came to pass”(v.22) indicates the passing of time and that this scene has been taken to a future conclusion as the result of their poor stewardship.

When does the Bible tell us angels will collect dead people? The Bible indicates that the angels gather the righteous dead at Christ's second coming.

Mat.24:31 And he shall send HIS ANGELS with a great sound of a trumpet, and they SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send HIS ANGELS, and SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Here’s where we see 4 items found together in only two places in the Bible, one of which we just saw in v.22 & 23.
1. Angels taking someone to a good place.
2. Abraham is also in the good place.
3. Someone being tormented in a bad place.
4. The person in the bad place is able to see Abraham.

Notice carefully below, that again it is Luke who records the same imagery.

Luke 13:28 There shall be WEEPING AND GNASHING of teeth, when ye shall SEE ABRAHAM, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall SIT DOWN IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

This comes from the Parable of the Strait Gate, (also see Mat. 7:13,14). And, as one can plainly tell this is referring to the elect being gathered by the angels from the four corners of the earth, (Mat.24:31, Mark 13:27), at the coming of Christ.

The torment that will occur to the wicked, at the coming of Christ, is said to cause a weeping and gnashing of teeth according to the parable found in Luke 13. These 4 items found together in only these two places; is one of the strongest indications that this is not a literal story, but yet a future prophetic event, specifically the second coming.

Those being tormented “see Abraham”(Isa. 52:10), while they are thrust out! The twist is; we now see the beggar, (Gentiles) in the bosom of Abraham. The father of Israel takes the Gentiles into his bosom and the rich man, (Jew’s/Israelite‘s), dies and is in torment.

Christ couldn’t haven’t been much clearer, salvation didn’t belong only to the Jews, and they had been poor stewards with the commission God had bestowed upon them.

Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Notice he is asking “Father Abraham”, showing that he is still placing assurance of salvation in their bloodline, instead of God. This can be also seen in John 8:37-42, where they told Christ that Abraham was their Father. They have placed Abraham in substitution of God as proof of their salvation.

Now, when judgment is finalized and the torments of this bad steward have begun, he is asking for a drop of water. Ironically similar to the Gentiles hoping for just a crumb from the masters table.

Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

After all the spiritual and physical gifts and prosperity God had lavished on them for centuries, they were greedy with the divine word of God. They simply, reaped what they sowed (Job 4:8), which is the heart of the message found in this parable. Those who try to keep salvation for themselves, will lose it.

Mat. 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.

The great gulf is a source of much discussion, we see that it separates those who are tormented, and those who are comforted. I‘ve shown above that this is imagery is consistent with a portrait of the second coming, (Luke 13:28-30). If this is true than we should be able to find the equivalent of this gulf in other passages which speak of the second coming.

Remember the virgins with no oil in their lamps, (Mat. 25:1-13), the door was shut and they were left outside pleading to get in, the Lord told them he didn’t know them. Sound familiar. Fixed gulf/shut door separating the good from the bad. The bad guys pleading for help, the good guys denying help. Same story told with different images

Also the same image in Mat. 25:31-46. Christ comes with His angels and gathers everyone, then he separates the sheep from the goats. He creates a divide/gulf/door between the good guys and bad guys. Again, tormented bad guys plead for their fate, the good guys deny them. Same images over and over,

In Mat. 8:11-12 very similar imagery again. The bad guys get separated by being placed in the outer darkness and they are tormented. It also says that many will come from the east and west, remember the passages that said the angels will gather the elect from the corners of the earth, same reference. Then it says those that are gathered sit down with Abraham. Lastly, who are the ones separated and tormented? None other than the Children of the kingdom, the Jews/Israelites.

Like I said, once you realize that the imagery is a portrait of the second coming, suddenly the images don’t appear unique. Instead you realize this parable is actually are repetitive images that we’ve been shown a hundred times.

Luke 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:


Here again, we see the rich man(Jews) praying to father Abraham, this of course is forbidden by the second commandment(Exo. 20:33) and condemned by Christ to the Pharisees, (John 8). Remember, it is the Pharisees to whom He is speaking this parable.

Luke 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

The rich man is asking for five of his brethren to be warned, not to come to this place of torments. Abraham has informed the rich man what his fate is and what the consequences for his actions are, (v.25,26). We see that he now wants Lazarus to be sent back, to “testify” to those five brethren. But, it is to late, the “great gulf” has been ”fixed”, their probation is long over.

The “five brethren” may be referring to the five full blooded brothers of Judah, Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun, (Gen. 29:32-30:20). This would make sense because we’ve already seen evidence that the Jews/Israelites are being symbolized by the “rich man” .

Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


This brilliant parable has many terms and concepts intertwined to express a moral truth, which is the principal behind a Biblical parable. It was a stern warning and rebuke to the Jewish nation, regarding their poor stewardship and the consequences for their iniquities.

It was also a prophetic glimpse at the resurrection of Lazarus which was the sealing of Christ’s fate, which they still refused to believe, (John 11:46-53, Luke 16:31). Most importantly for those reading it today, it is a reminder for the commissioned individual not to be “highminded”, or we might just find ourselves “cut off”, and “thrust out” of the kingdom of God as well.
Everyone please take special note in this story Jesus told...(1) The Rich man could not ever come back to warn his family, there is no salvation if you die in Sin, and never Repented of your sins and asked heartfelt forgiveness from God, and actually was transformed.

(2) The Rich Man could feel pain and torment in Hell. He was dead, but his pain, and torment he still felt forever. When people commit suicide, or any death experience they feel all the misery and pain, and agonizing addictions they once had, a never ending punishment, forever. Read it yourself. God does not play games, or compromise his words and teachings.....
 
R

Rickee

Guest
#54
I have a problem when people try to dissect stories in the Bible, into this or that THEY think it really means.....Jesus told his Apostles he would send back to them ( after he would ascend) The Holy Ghost which should teach.them and guide them in all TRUTH, and bring all things to remembrance, whatsoever he taught them....( read; John 14 v 26).We should never "guess"scripture, but back it up with iron clad knowledge from all scriptures...God Bless!
 
L

LT

Guest
#55
I have a problem when people try to dissect stories in the Bible, into this or that THEY think it really means.....Jesus told his Apostles he would send back to them ( after he would ascend) The Holy Ghost which should teach.them and guide them in all TRUTH, and bring all things to remembrance, whatsoever he taught them....( read; John 14 v 26).We should never "guess"scripture, but back it up with iron clad knowledge from all scriptures...God Bless!
When there are topics that are unclear in scripture, is it right to say you know the answer?! NO! It is very sinful, and prideful. But how is it a sin to have an opinion? When I said "I have a feeling that this..." I spoke in that way because God never made it clear, but through Biblical context, I have made a soft opinion. If you read the post you would notice that my opinion is based on more than just one passage.

If you think this story was just a way of Jesus to describe hell, you are terribly mistaken. The point was that the people of Israel rejected the prophets, rejected the teachings of Jesus, and were about to reject Jesus entirely (by killing Him), and that no sign, even the resurrection of the dead, would change their minds. Any other information we can glean from this is extra, and not the direct intent of this story.
 
D

danschance

Guest
#56
I don't agree with the OP, but I think his point is well thought out, and balanced. Needless to say, danschance is WAY out of line. Think before posting, brother, and be "slow to speak""slow to be angry".

This IS a parable, but it may also be the telling of a real story. I highly doubt that Abraham speaks to the damned very often. The whole thing may be purely symbolic, as it sounds very similar to images in the book of Enoch. Jesus used cultural images to make points very often.

On the other hand, I see proof throughout scripture that: there is torment before the Final Judgement, and paradise before the reward of Heaven.

Either way, it has more than one level of truth within it, like all parables.
Also, just because it is a parable doesn't mean it's not an actual story. I'm sure a farmer actually spread seed in a few bad spots at one point... lol. Mustard seeds really do grow into trees.

This is the last story in a series of parables. It is pretty obvious that this one is different than the others, both in mood and in setting. I have a feeling this story is both parabolic and true. < I can't prove that 2nd one though.
So you think the story of Lazarus and the rich man is prophecy? Cuz that is what the Op is saying. He is claiming it is not about any real person or any real story. He claims it is about the future even though there is nothing in the story to support his theory. His theory is driven by his theological beliefs that a soul can't survive death.
 
D

danschance

Guest
#57
I have a problem when people try to dissect stories in the Bible, into this or that THEY think it really means.....Jesus told his Apostles he would send back to them ( after he would ascend) The Holy Ghost which should teach.them and guide them in all TRUTH, and bring all things to remembrance, whatsoever he taught them....( read; John 14 v 26).We should never "guess"scripture, but back it up with iron clad knowledge from all scriptures...God Bless!
The OP takes one paragraph from the bible and takes over 50 paragraphs to explain it...that is a lot of explaining! In the end he claims this story is about prophecy! Why would he spend so much verbage on something so simple? He does not believe the soul can survive death and over works this story be redefining terms to make it seem like it is saying something it clearly does not say.
 
L

LT

Guest
#58
this is a rebuke.
danschance, you are speaking very confidently, but I see little scripture to back your many words. Beware of vanity.
The OP used over 90 verses. Did you look up the references the OP diligently stated? No you did not, because you did not care to listen to what he said. If you had looked up the verses, you would not be accusing him like you do, but instead you would be correcting any errors. Your words have shown that you have not even searched the Scriptures or prayed before answering.
Again, I disagree with the OP, but I truly respect the amount of effort he put into this. The OP certainly will be rewarded for the diligent searching of the scriptures, as God promises in His Word.
 
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danschance

Guest
#59
This area of scripture is consistently under debate, both in interpretation and form.
Actually the story of Lazarus and the rich man are not controversial at all except by a few christian cults like Jehovah's Witness' and Seventh Day Adventists who believe the soul does not survive death. The vast majority of Christians have no issue with this story at all and take it as a literal story.




This discourse began, (Luke 14:1-17:10), by Jesus after He’d arrived to eat at the house of one of the chief Pharisees, with other Pharisees and lawyers were present, (Luke 14:3). After questioning them directly on matters of law, they remained silent. Jesus responded to their silence with a parable, (Luke 14:7-11).
The parable of the Guests has nothing at all in common with the story of Lazarus and the rich man. This is a classic bait n switch move. Edison wanted the public to accept DC electricity into their cities and not AC. SO he went to fairs and electrocuted dogs with AC electricity as "proof" it is unsafe.



Immediately after Jesus repeats himself, in parable form, Luke 14:16-24.
Now he defines this story as a parable. Why does he wish to define this as a parable? Because if he accepts this as a real story then he must admit his theological paradigm is false on the soul not surviving death.


"And the disciples came, and said unto Him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. …All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake He not unto them" (Mat 13:10-11,34).
Here is another "Bait N Switch" move this person wants to hood wink us with. He points to a verse about parables to somehow prove this is a parable. This is one tactic that this person uses thought this exceedingly long post. Don't be fooled by it.


Remember, He’s speaking to the Pharisee’s and this “rich man” is portrayed wearing clothing of the High Priest of the Israelite people(Exo. 28:5).
Another bait N switch move? There is nothing in the story of Lazarus the the rich man to suggest Jesus is speaking to the Pharisees other than the preceding parable is directed to them.




Matt. 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. 27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters table.

Here we see that the Gentile lady is being symbolized as the “dogs”, the “crumbs of bread” as the gospel message, and the “masters“ as the Israelites/Jews.
This is so laughable. He uses another bait N switch move to "prove" his point. He attempts to draw a connection between Lazarus a and a gentile woman. The bread Jesus is referring to in this passage is already defined for us. It is about how casting demons out is for the Jews only. Then this lady begs Jesus for a crumb as a dog would beg for from it's master. The crumbs of Lazarus show he is destitute and the crumb of the lady is deliverance for a gentile. The two topics are not about the same thing all. In fact they are mutually exclusive!

I deleted most of the post here because it is just more of the same. He constantly uses a bait n switch tactic and never quotes a scholar or any other reputable source that agrees with him. All he does is baits you with a verse from some place else in the bible then declares they prove his point.


This brilliant parable has many terms and concepts intertwined to express a moral truth, which is the principal behind a Biblical parable. It was a stern warning and rebuke to the Jewish nation, regarding their poor stewardship and the consequences for their iniquities.

It was also a prophetic glimpse at the resurrection of Lazarus which was the sealing of Christ’s fate, which they still refused to believe, (John 11:46-53, Luke 16:31). Most importantly for those reading it today, it is a reminder for the commissioned individual not to be “highminded”, or we might just find ourselves “cut off”, and “thrust out” of the kingdom of God as well.
Now here is the conclusion to this 53 paragraph rant. He laughably claims it is a parable again, claims it is a rebuke on Jewish nation and for the win claims this story is actually prophetic! The sick part of this rant is he claims if we do not agree with him,if we choose to be "highminded", we will be cutoff from salvation. Unbelievable.
 
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danschance

Guest
#60
this is a rebuke.
danschance, you are speaking very confidently, but I see little scripture to back your many words. Beware of vanity.
The OP used over 90 verses. Did you look up the references the OP diligently stated? No you did not, because you did not care to listen to what he said. If you had looked up the verses, you would not be accusing him like you do, but instead you would be correcting any errors. Your words have shown that you have not even searched the Scriptures or prayed before answering.
Again, I disagree with the OP, but I truly respect the amount of effort he put into this. The OP certainly will be rewarded for the diligent searching of the scriptures, as God promises in His Word.
Yes he used tons of verses that have nothing at all to do with the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Read my post abouve and see how badly he mishandles the scriptures. For instance, he points out that the rich man is wearing fine linen and purple and then points to an old testament verse about priests wearing purple and then concludes they are the same. Any first year bible student knows that purple is very expensive and worn by the rich. The fact that the rich man wears puprle only underscores he is rich not that he is a priest!

This is a classic bait and switch logical fallacy. Hand held hair dryers if dropped in the tub can kill you. Therefore all hand held dryers should be illegal. Or how about "Judas was a disciple who hung himself so this proves all disciples hung themselves". I hope you can see how poorly written his rant is and I can only hope he stops this incredibly bad exegesis of the scriptures in the future.

He never once quotes any reputable sources that back up his claims. All he does is bait n switch thru the entire post. He takes one paragraph from the bible and turns it into a 53 paragraph over worked rant.

If you think I am in error, go ahead and post a small piece of the OP and show me how amazing he is. I would love to discuss it with you, but please don't cast aspersions on me before you get the facts.